pay cuts

c1979

can you be sacked for not taking a pay cut

Eoin

Not directly. But you can be made redundant if the company doesn't achieve the savings it needs to by people taking a pay cut. Also, if you are there less than a year then you can't take an action for unfair dismissal. If you are still in your probationary period, then you can be let go very easily.

c1979

I.m there over 2 years

shayser

This explains most of it:

http://bit.ly/cMrjsC

Unless your employer can prove there was a genuine redundancy situation and that fair procedures were followed, this dismissal may be found to be unfair

Anyone know what would constitute proof in the above scenario?

Guell72

A lot of employers are using the recession as an excuse to cut outgoings, even if they dont need to. You can refuse and if they wish you to go they must make you redundant, with the same terms any previous redundancies got.

If you are employable elsewhere, you have nothing to lose by refusing the cut. If they make you redundant, you get a pay off and you'll get another job elsewhere easily.

If you are not employable easily elsewhere then you should think about accepting your employers terms - but ALWAYS have a specified period for the cut in writing. eg 6 months and then you are back to your original rate. Too many people take a permanent pay cut when there is no need.

shayser

shayser wrote: »

This explains most of it:

http://bit.ly/cMrjsC

Anyone know what would constitute proof in the above scenario?

Anyone know what would constitute proof of a genuine redundancy situation would be? Would the company have to open the books to the staff? We are expecting an "announcement" today of a second pay cut in 5 months. Wondering whether to refuse the cut or say "Yes boss, thank you boss" for a second time.

Guell72

shayser wrote: »

Anyone know what would constitute proof of a genuine redundancy situation would be? Would the company have to open the books to the staff? We are expecting an "announcement" today of a second pay cut in 5 months. Wondering whether to refuse the cut or say "Yes boss, thank you boss" for a second time.

All depends on how likely you are to get another job.
If it was me and i was confident of getting another job after it. Id tell them to stick it, that you'll take the redundancy. I bet if enough people tell them to stick it, you'll find they peddle back.
And if you do have to roll over and take it, get an end period written down from them. Might be worth talking to a solicitor too, just to get everything straight. Sign nothing and tell them you need a month to think it over. Usually they try to pressure people into signing agreements so they dont look at all their options first.

honeymonster

how much of a pay cut are you getting?

Guell72

honeymonster wrote: »

how much of a pay cut are you getting?

Im not getting any paycut - because i called their bluff and told them to go ahead and make me redundant if they wanted. And im not even in the place a year, so wouldnt get a pay-off anyway. They backed down because it would cost them more to replace me than to just keep paying me. They were just playing the odds.

Straycat

what if they refuse to make you redundant, and they insist a pay cut is the only way, and that your job is essential to the business? where would that leave someone?

sharper

Straycat wrote: »

what if they refuse to make you redundant, and they insist a pay cut is the only way, and that your job is essential to the business? where would that leave someone?

Then you'd have to take them to an employment tribunal.

If their business is suffering then there's probably no way you can resist a paycut so you might as well go with it rather than fight it and get it anyway. If it isn't then it's worth trying to avoid it.

shayser

If your position is essential to the company then you hold all the cards. The company cannot make you redundant and get a new employee in for less money. I think your pretty much snookered if you are part of a team who do the same/similar jobs.

Trouble is my boss has said in no uncertain terms that he will close the company unless we take the cut. He has made his money already. He can get rid of the Major Domo and clean the pool in his Spanish Villa himself, his house in Dublin is new so not much maintenance needed there, and his two houses in his hometown just need the odd job here and there a few times a year. The wife's 250k would cover the shopping, never mind his own stash.

If he would just give up the monthly €3.5k director's fees he takes on top of his fat salary, stop paying the (illegal) wages to family members who never set foot in the office he would immediately cut 90% of the loss.

Guell72

shayser wrote: »

If your position is essential to the company then you hold all the cards. The company cannot make you redundant and get a new employee in for less money. I think your pretty much snookered if you are part of a team who do the same/similar jobs.

Trouble is my boss has said in no uncertain terms that he will close the company unless we take the cut. He has made his money already. He can get rid of the Major Domo and clean the pool in his Spanish Villa himself, his house in Dublin is new so not much maintenance needed there, and his two houses in his hometown just need the odd job here and there a few times a year. The wife's 250k would cover the shopping, never mind his own stash.

If he would just give up the monthly €3.5k director's fees he takes on top of his fat salary, stop paying the (illegal) wages to family members who never set foot in the office he would immediately cut 90% of the loss.

Call his bluff. If he is going to close the company then he is obviously not making anything and it is on the wire and will probably close soon anyway.
If he is making money then he would be mad to close it.
When he asks you to take the cut officially - Tell him you need a month to think about it. Then start looking around and see how the market is for other jobs. If you take one before being made redundant you will miss out on a sweet package though.
I got almost 40k early last year after refusing a cut and took a 3 month holiday too. Within 2 weeks of looking for a job i had one that paid more than my last employer. But my new employer asked me to take a cut already, not even a a year in, and i just said no, i'd rather get another job. That was the end of it. A lot of people took the cuts because they were scared of being fired. Anyone who refused is still there though.

unJustMary

Guell72 wrote: »

Call his bluff. If he is going to close the company then he is obviously not making anything and it is on the wire and will probably close soon anyway.
If he is making money then he would be mad to close it.

All good advice, and I do admire you for calling his bluff, well done indeed.

In the OPs case, yer man might be thinking "I want more profit, or more time off" - so even if it's making money, he may be at the stage of life where time is more important than money.

Nody

The answer is redundancy and not sacking as noted. If they had any brain they would simply relabel the job with new salary, slightly altered duties and make everyone redundant having them reapply if interested. Perfectly legal and I've gone through it (minus the salary decrease part as it was boom years).

Wishbone Ash

Guell72 wrote: »

they must make you redundant

Guell72 wrote: »

told them to go ahead and make me redundant

Straycat wrote: »

what if they refuse to make you redundant

shayser wrote: »

The company cannot make you redundant

Nody wrote: »

make everyone redundant

Apologies for being pedantic but employees can't be made redundant. It is only a position or positions which can be made 'redundant' resulting in job losses.