Who is the greatest player ever?

ReacherCreature

I was reading an excellent article by ESPN writer Mike Sando and he really makes a strong claim for wide receiver Jerry Rice as the greatest player ever.

Link: http://espn.go.com/blog/nfcwest/post/_/id/13874/the-case-for-rice-as-the-greatest-eve

Just a simple question; who do you think is the greatest player ever?

My opinion is that I've no idea who is, the list of potential players is extraordinary. Just wondering what you guys opinions are?

TheHeadhunter

Win on Sunday and it's Peyton Manning.

cooker3

The thing is, it's harder to say in the nfl more than most sports. The rules have changed considerably over the year. A wr and QB is a very different position now. The same for defense. Imagine the difference for corners before and after the penalty was introduced for touching 5 yards beyond the line of scrimmage. It's just really hard to compares players and eras.

davyjose

Tebow

jdivision

Would probably be Sammy Baugh if you take it World War II intervened. Still probably best two way player ever.

ReacherCreature

TheHeadhunter wrote: »

Win on Sunday and it's Peyton Manning.

I think the likes of Montana and Elway will provide stiff competition to that.

cooker3 wrote: »

The thing is, it's harder to say in the nfl more than most sports. The rules have changed considerably over the year. A wr and QB is a very different position now. The same for defense. Imagine the difference for corners before and after the penalty was introduced for touching 5 yards beyond the line of scrimmage. It's just really hard to compares players and eras.

Obviously it's much more difficult. New years and eras bring in new suggestions of who'll be the best. It just makes for an interesting question.

BrandonFlowers

Lawrence Taylor imho but i'm only new to this american football game and just read the blind side in 2 days so that might have influenced me

ReacherCreature

BrandonFlowers wrote: »

Lawrence Taylor imho but i'm only new to this american football game and just read the blind side in 2 days so that might have influenced me

Defintely would be considered up there imo.

D3PO

Best player ever is Jamarcus Alex Leaf ;)

kmart6

Atleast people here are throwing out suggestions other than QB's!!!

tallaghtoutlaws

Barry Sanders would be on my top 10. But I say 10 because there are at least 10 guys who were phenomenal in their own way.

But to be honest I say that but the difference between the Eras and then the difference between positions its very hard to say 1 player is the best NFL player of all time.

eagle eye

Barry Sanders is my no.1 and Deoin Sanders is my no.2. The two best I've ever seen.

Walter Payton too. Rice and Montana too, that team was just full of stars, Ronnie Lott is another. Reggie White was a beast, Junior Seau too and Lawrence Taylor are the two best linebackers.

I'm talking retired players, well Seau was active last year and could come back again but he was awesome for many, many years.

Lirange

Joe Montana

Lothaar v2

It's impossible to say... but since it's just for sh1ts and giggles I'll go along with Jerry. To produce those numbers every year for 20 years is unbelieveable. And, while he may have benefited from great QBs for the first half of his career, he (along with the fossilsed Tim Brown and Rich Gannon) still helped the Raiders to a Bowl appearance in the noughties.

Stats and rings/bowls aside - I watched Jerry play since his rookie year and I can safely say he is the greatest player I ever saw. The things he could do... he made the tough catches look effortless and graceful and hauled in so many seemingly-impossible receptions.

Barry Sanders was my favourite player to watch, but he's not the greatest player of all time.

bobby wade

Call mea homer but for me it's Walter Payton

davyjose

TheHeadhunter wrote: »

Win on Sunday and it's Peyton Manning.

I think a few years from now, I'll be saying Manning. But not yet - I'll wait and see how his career finishes first. Look at how Elway finished out his career. He wouldn't have been near the top five, before his last few years.

eagle eye

davyjose wrote: »

I think a few years from now, I'll be saying Manning. But not yet - I'll wait and see how his career finishes first. Look at how Elway finished out his career. He wouldn't have been near the top five, before his last few years.

Top five what? Greatest players of all time, or QBs?

He certainly isn't near the top five players for me anyways. Great QB and all but he would struggle to make my top 20 players.

davyjose

eagle eye wrote: »

Top five what? Greatest players of all time, or QBs?

He certainly isn't near the top five players for me anyways. Great QB and all but he would struggle to make my top 20 players.

Well either way, those two wins projected him way up the charts in terms of QB anyway.

You hear the same old names when people talk about the best QB ever - Montana, Elway, etc, etc.

And generally, if you're considered on of the best QB's ever, you're automatically considered one of the best players. It's just the way it is.

frostie500

davyjose wrote: »

And generally, if you're considered on of the best QB's ever, you're automatically considered one of the best players. It's just the way it is.

It is the most pivotal position in the sport so you will see an unequal distribution in favour of the top QBs....cant say there'll be too many linemen in anyones list even though the top QBs would look medicore by and large if they had poor lines, its just the way of the sport

kryogen

too many to pick a definitive greatest of all time

ill try come up with my top 20 and post that!

Lothaar v2

eagle eye wrote: »

Great QB and all but he would struggle to make my top 20 players.

AAAHHHH!!! THE POWER OF CHRIST COMPELS YOU!!! BLASPHEMY!

I'd have Elway in the top 20 players, fo' shizz. He was at his best when the Broncos were *losing* Superbowls, sadly. Unfortunately for him, he had a cacky team around him. Still... absolute legend of a player and a lock for top 20 of all time IMO.

themont85

Lothaar v2 wrote: »

AAAHHHH!!! THE POWER OF CHRIST COMPELS YOU!!! BLASPHEMY!

I'd have Elway in the top 20 players, fo' shizz. He was at his best when the Broncos were *losing* Superbowls, sadly. Unfortunately for him, he had a cacky team around him. Still... absolute legend of a player and a lock for top 20 of all time IMO.

You must be new here, eagleeye has some issues with P Manning as a player.

I agree with davejose, I'll wait until Manning and Brady finish before they go down on the list, but its a fair indication of how high they'll be when both have cracked top 10 lists already with 6/7 years to go for them :eek:

Elway is one of my heroes, I would have supported them if it wasn't for the cursed Bills dangling the SB over me for years and failing.

The best thing you can say about Rice is he is greatest receiver of all time, in the opinion of 99% of people anyway. He was number 2 on the Sporting News's all time players 100 in 1999, and he played on for 5 more years after!

Mr. Presentable

OJ Simpson!

Actually I'd go for Jerry Rice, though my field of experience is only the last 30 years - I know sod all about players before that.

dardevle

.......


can't really argue against Rice, as his consistency and work ethic over such a sustained period sets him apart ...but i think Elway deserves mention for the way he carried Denver through the 80's without much of a team around him.

and while Barry sanders was one of the most exciting players ever to watch, i would still have Jim Brown over him in any fantasy team.



...

Lothaar v2

themont85 wrote: »

You must be new here, eagleeye has some issues with P Manning as a player.

Oh, sh1te... I thought he was talking about Elway!

Manning will *probably* be in the top flight ultimately... but right now, Elway's ahead of him. Come back to me on Monday, though.

kmart6

Ah according to Jerry Rice the best receiver ever is Terrell Owens!!! :rolleyes:

frostie500

In relation to Rice, Randy Moss is closing in on his numbers. If Moss passes him do you think will he be viewed as the greatest reciever ever? Rice is viewed that way because of his work ethic as much as his technique and numbers. Moss has had issues with his work ethic and forced his way out of two teams. I think he's without doubt the best reciever of the last decade and will go down as one of the best ever but his issues with the Vikes and Raiders will probably count against him in a debate

RichTea

frostie500 wrote: »

In relation to Rice, Randy Moss is closing in on his numbers. If Moss passes him do you think will he be viewed as the greatest reciever ever? Rice is viewed that way because of his work ethic as much as his technique and numbers. Moss has had issues with his work ethic and forced his way out of two teams. I think he's without doubt the best reciever of the last decade and will go down as one of the best ever but his issues with the Vikes and Raiders will probably count against him in a debate

Moss doesn't have the character of Jerry Rice, nor is he as good a receiver as Rice (nobody is or ever was). The off the field aspects you mentioned and the fallout experienced at every team he has played for definitely has a negative effect on his legacy.

It's quite difficult to compare players across eras. There were different styles of play and rules and changes like the switch to the 4-3 defense of Tom Landry can't be underestimated.

For a player to be considered among the greatest of all time I'd have to say that they revolutionized their position or changed the way the game was played. For example Johnny Unitas and Otto Graham were the forerunners to the modern pass-happy quarterbacks in the NFL, Lawrence "L.T." Taylor and Sammy Baugh were gamechangers in defense. Jim Brown has to be regarded as revolutionary as well. Reggie White, Ronnie Lott, Sam Huff etc all deserve mention.

D3PO

frostie500 wrote: »

I think he's without doubt the best reciever of the last decade

Yep despite his questionable professionalism at times you cant but admire the numbers he has put up. 10 thousand yard seasons in the last 12 years.

The only reciever that could have competed with him for reciever of the decade IMO would be Larry Fitz had he been drafted a few years earlier, but he didnt so I guess its a moot point

frostie500

D3PO wrote: »

Yep despite his questionable professionalism at times you cant but admire the numbers he has put up. 10 thousand yard seasons in the last 12 years.

The only reciever that could have competed with him for reciever of the decade IMO would be Larry Fitz had he been drafted a few years earlier, but he didnt so I guess its a moot point

I always wondered where Fitzgerald falls in the ranking of recievers that played this decade. I always thought he was very good but it wasnt until the Superbowl run that I felt he came out of Boldin's shadow in Arizona. So I decided to check out his stats relevant to a few other players. Obviously Moss is on another planet statistically. He ranks in the top ten career TDs after his first 7 seasons. I used the first 7 seasons of some of the players that I deemed to be the best of the decade to allow Fitzgeralds numbers to be taken in context with the rest.

Randy Moss--catches:438 yards:9412 TD:90 average:21.5
Larry Fitz--catches:523 yards:7067 TD:78 average:13.5
Marvin Harrison--catches:665 yards:8800 TD:73 average:13.3
Torry Holt--catches:619 yards:9487 TD:54 average:15.3
Terell Owens--catches:512 yards:7470 TD:72 average:14.6
Issac Bruce--catches:476 yards:7299 TD:50 average:15.3
Steve Smith--catches:431 yards:5927 TD:37 average:13.8
Anquan Boldin--catches: 502 yards:6496 TD:40 average:13.0
Andre Johnson--catches:587 yards:7948 TD:42 average:13.5

Have to say I was amazed to see how few catches Moss has relevant tho the rest-only Smith had less catches but Moss was nearly twice as productice. As I said I thought the Cards used Boldin more than Fitzgerald but the numbers show Fitzgerald had more catches and yards. The TDs wernt suprising because that was fairly clear to see. I always liked Holt and if I had to pick the second reciver for the decade it would be him or Harrison ahead of Fitzgerald

Chucky the tree

Stats wont show it but I think Andre Johnson is the 2nd best WR in the league and has been for the last 2 seasons.

frostie500

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Stats wont show it but I think Andre Johnson is the 2nd best WR in the league and has been for the last 2 seasons.

Cant believe I forgot Johnson! just after adding his stats to my list now

davyjose

frostie500 wrote: »

In relation to Rice, Randy Moss is closing in on his numbers. If Moss passes him do you think will he be viewed as the greatest reciever ever?

No Rings; No way!

Sorry lads, but Marino and Manning always have the lack of rings dangled in front of their GOAT aspirations (and Manning has a ring) - Moss couldn't even get a ring with the highest scoring offense in history. So no, he's nowhere near Rice, and is unlikely to ever be considered so.

Pherekydes

Donald Driver is 2nd in the last decade in terms of catches.

644 catches, 9019 yds and 48 TDs.

themont85

Moss has all the God given ability one could want to be a receiver. But he has has had no where near the consistancy of play and character needed to be Goat. Raymond Berry who had to time of his retirement was leader in receiver stats didn't have the gifts Moss has, but at a gift of work ethic like pretty much no other. You combine Berry's scary attention to detail with Moss's freakish talent and you have the ultimate WR, Rice is the closest to that mould that we have seen thus far.

If Larry Fitz continues he will be in the discussion, but he needs Leinhert to get to grips with the pro level and have 10 more years and championships, he has the capabilities though imo. Andre Johnson is a freak and I would trade multiple high draft picks for him. If the rest of the Texans sort themselves out he will be one of the greatest of all time.

eagle eye

frostie500 wrote: »

In relation to Rice, Randy Moss is closing in on his numbers. If Moss passes him do you think will he be viewed as the greatest reciever ever? Rice is viewed that way because of his work ethic as much as his technique and numbers. Moss has had issues with his work ethic and forced his way out of two teams. I think he's without doubt the best reciever of the last decade and will go down as one of the best ever but his issues with the Vikes and Raiders will probably count against him in a debate

He has no rings either and thats huge.

eagle eye

themont85 wrote: »

You must be new here, eagleeye has some issues with P Manning as a player.

What issues do I have with Manning as a player?
Why are you bringing this up? There was no mention of him in this thread by me.
You are around a long time and you should no better than to accuse me of having issues with Peyton Manning, unless you read posts with some sort of blinkers on or something. The only thing I've ever said about Manning is that I rate Tom Brady ahead of him.

Lothaar v2 wrote: »

Oh, sh1te... I thought he was talking about Elway!

Manning will *probably* be in the top flight ultimately... but right now, Elway's ahead of him. Come back to me on Monday, though.

I was talking about Elway, I never mentioned Manning and please disregard his comments and they are untrue.

eagle eye

davyjose wrote: »

No Rings; No way!

Sorry lads, but Marino and Manning always have the lack of rings dangled in front of their GOAT aspirations (and Manning has a ring) - Moss couldn't even get a ring with the highest scoring offense in history. So no, he's nowhere near Rice, and is unlikely to ever be considered so.

I agree with this completely.

raven136

why is it in American sports you must win a championship to be declared the greatest ever?Its all team sports and surely you can excell and perform to a high standard and not win a championship.

John O Shea has more league title's than Steven Gerrard,which one will be in the discussion for greatest ever player.
If Ireland never won the grandslam woud BOD not be regarded as the greatest centre of the modern era.Richie McCaw won world player of the year last season and none of his teams won anything,club or country.

Its just something that has always intrigued me about US team sports.

davyjose

raven136 wrote: »

why is it in American sports you must win a championship to be declared the greatest ever?Its all team sports and surely you can excell and perform to a high standard and not win a championship.

John O Shea has more league title's than Steven Gerrard,which one will be in the discussion for greatest ever player.

Neither.

raven136 wrote: »

If Ireland never won the grandslam woud BOD not be regarded as the greatest centre of the modern era.Richie McCaw won world player of the year last season and none of his teams won anything,club or country.

BOD's reputation would not be what it will be, had he not won the HC and Grand Slam. And McCaw's World Player award, was an utter shambles to the point where it has actually devalued the award.

I do think championships matter in other sports. Would maradona or Pele really be considered the best if they'd never won the World Cup. Almost certainly not IMO.

frostie500

davyjose wrote: »

I do think championships matter in other sports. Would maradona or Pele really be considered the best if they'd never won the World Cup. Almost certainly not IMO.

Johan Cruyff, Alfredo di Stéfano and Ferenc Puskás never won a world cup and they would be in any discussion of the greatest ever in football. The success of a team should not be the defining factor of greatness

davyjose

frostie500 wrote: »

Johan Cruyff, Alfredo di Stéfano and Ferenc Puskás never won a world cup and they would be in any discussion of the greatest ever in football. The success of a team should not be the defining factor of greatness

They're generally well behind the other two in the pecking order (they also won a huge amount of domestic championships). Besides, it doesn't answer my question about Pele/Maradona.

themont85

eagle eye wrote: »

He has no rings either and thats huge.

Sorry, misconstrued your post.

How can you say 'no rings is huge' yet rate Sanders as your number 1? The reason I say championships is that it does 'seperate' close calls particularly receiver. If Larry or Andre match rice but no championships, somethings gotta give. But championships is way down my list.

UhOh

Jerry Rice

no other player at any position ever comes close to dominating it like Jerry did

eagle eye

themont85 wrote: »

Sorry, misconstrued your post.

How can you say 'no rings is huge' yet rate Sanders as your number 1? The reason I say championships is that it does 'seperate' close calls particularly receiver. If Larry or Andre match rice but no championships, somethings gotta give. But championships is way down my list.

In a comparison with Rice its huge. Rice has the rings and was a highlight reel for most of his career because he played for the 49ers and even after that for a pretty decent Raiders team.

I think Rice is in a league of his own anyways and is definitely in the conversation for the GOAT.

For me Barry Sanders was in a different league to any other RB I've ever seen. I honestly believe that if you put a decent D with that Detroit offense they would have won a Superbowl without a decent QB. He was that good. I mean his worst season was his 1100 yard season where he missed 5 games.

I just can't say enough about him, he was just so far ahead of anybody else I've ever seen. I thought that AP might change that for me, but he has too many problems with fumbles, Chris Johnson is a very special player and if he continues the way he is going then he will change my view, but tell me this, how many running backs have you ever seen that got better as the years went on. Sanders just got better and better and better until he retired.

Tallaght Saint

Don't think anyone will come closr to Jerry Rice

UhOh

themont85 wrote: »

How can you say 'no rings is huge' yet rate Sanders as your number 1? The reason I say championships is that it does 'seperate' close calls particularly receiver. If Larry or Andre match rice but no championships, somethings gotta give. But championships is way down my list.

I disagree, you think Lynn Swann or John Stallworth would be HOFers if they had no (or even one) SB ring?
Anyway Larry or Andre wont match Jerry, his receiving yards & TD numbers are pretty much untouchable

themont85

UhOh wrote: »

I disagree, you think Lynn Swann or John Stallworth would be HOFers if they had no (or even one) SB ring?
Anyway Larry or Andre wont match Jerry, his receiving yards & TD numbers are pretty much untouchable

Thats just my opinion. Its clear that rings do colour the career stats of some. Stallworth and Swann definately benfited from that. They were still damn good receivers in their day when passing was second.

walshb

ReacherCreature wrote: »

I was reading an excellent article by ESPN writer Mike Sando and he really makes a strong claim for wide receiver Jerry Rice as the greatest player ever.

Link: http://espn.go.com/blog/nfcwest/post/_/id/13874/the-case-for-rice-as-the-greatest-eve

Just a simple question; who do you think is the greatest player ever?

My opinion is that I've no idea who is, the list of potential players is extraordinary. Just wondering what you guys opinions are?

For pure dominance in any one position, it is Rice. The consummate pro.
He had underrated speed, but it was so graceful, and he had the safest pair of
hands ever. His game awareness are second to none

BTW, the QB is a far more all around position and if I was asked, then Montana gets
my nod. The coolest cat ever. Under such pressure, Joe thrived. It was like slow motion

ReacherCreature

Bruce Matthews in with a shout on the offensive line too, thinking about it the other day.

The amount of players on offer to be considered the greatest ever is huge and varies in depth. Really shows how much the NFL has to offer and the talent pool is deep, streching back decades.

evil_seed

for me the candidates of greatest ever are: rice, walter, lt, montana and primetime