Garda Vetting for visitors to schools

amen

might be a silly question but some priests are visiting our school over the next few weeks for first communion practice.

Do they have to be vetted by the Garda as teachers are?

There is also a local person who coaches the football team. Should they be vetted?

how could if I check if they have been ?

deisemum

There are still more than 40,000 teachers that have yet to be vetted, only about one-third vetted so far and it could take up to 4 years to clear the backlog.

I think school visitors that have access to pupils should be vetted.

byhookorbycrook

Everyone SHOULD be vetted, but it's not realistic with the backlog,as visitors will not be alone with children,there should not be a problem.

Bonzo1970

deisemum wrote: »

There are still more than 40,000 teachers that have yet to be vetted, only about one-third vetted so far and it could take up to 4 years to clear the backlog.

I think school visitors that have access to pupils should be vetted.

Im not sure how practical that is. I wonder at the amount of vetting we now require or will be requiring. Take teachers who have been in a school for decades with no complaint against them-exactly how is that a justifiable use of resources?I wonder if some of this vetting money could be used to fund programmes concentrated at preventing the occurrence of sexual abuse where its most likely to occur (by far) -the home and more targeted at preventing those more likely to abuse in the modern era- a family member.

When was last time you heard of a child being abused by anyone in a school? Most cases date back decades?

Vetting everyone is a gross waste of money and has very dubious value in terms of prevention. Typical Ireland-we either over do things or under-do them in terms of child protection. Vet everyone if it assuages our guilt but it aint effective overall.

If we pursue this into all areas -volunteer-ism will go into terminal decline. Many people have records (criminal) that have nothing to do with child abuse or even something that might make them a danger to Children. Others with no records just wont bother because it will seem like hassle.

Bonzo1970

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Everyone SHOULD be vetted, but it's not realistic with the backlog,as visitors will not be alone with children,there should not be a problem.

Exactly-if a visitor will be alone with a kid-vet them otherwise make sure they are never alone .

Lollymcd

There is no way to check if someone has been vetted, each organisation must apply for it's own Garda vetting for each employee, there is no carry over between jobs even if the person is working two jobs concurrently.

Garda vetting only covers crimes the person has been convicted of. If 100 accusations have been made but no actual convictions made then nothing will show up in the Garda vetting. This, IMO, means the system doesn't work appropriately/effectively.

It doesn't mean that it's not worth applying for it, just means it's incomplete. Asking local people about whoever is coming in contact with the school children could be just as valuable.

deisemum

Bonzo1970 wrote: »

When was last time you heard of a child being abused by anyone in a school? Most cases date back decades?

Vetting everyone is a gross waste of money and has very dubious value in terms of prevention. Typical Ireland-we either over do things or under-do them in terms of child protection. Vet everyone if it assuages our guilt but it aint effective overall.

My child was abused by a teacher and that was only 5 years ago and that teacher is still teaching and has a very long history of abusing pupils and I know of other boards.ie posters who've pm'd me telling me about what they witnessed at the hands of this teacher when they were pupils. This teacher has yet to be garda vetted but he's now known to the Gardai. He wasn't even suspended and in true Irish fashion teachers close rank. After discovering my child was abused by a teacher I've heard of so many cases from around the country and so many of them are hushed up, parents threatened or even paid off to keep quiet.

I do advise parents not to take garda vetting as proof that whatever individual they hand their child over to someone safe. Garda vetting only highlights what comes to the attention of the gardai.

we'llallhavetea_old

why did i have to stumble upon this thread. new worries, yeay!

this is a rather ignorant question, but what does garda vetting involve? is it just wether or not you have anything on your criminal record?

pooch90

we'llallhavetea wrote: »

why did i have to stumble upon this thread. new worries, yeay!

this is a rather ignorant question, but what does garda vetting involve? is it just wether or not you have anything on your criminal record?

Yep! It's pathetic imo.

I was vetted 4 years ago, fresh out of college. Now I have to send in this form when applying for teaching jobs. Who knows what I could have been up to in the interim? I can't personally apply to get a new vet done, it has to be through the Teaching Council. No sign of them coming looking for a new one to be done.

Visitors to schools are all meant to be vetted, the irish dancing teacher, sports coaches but it's rare that it's done. As said above it's rare that visitors would be left alone with kids but it does happen.

Bonzo1970

deisemum wrote: »

My child was abused by a teacher and that was only 5 years ago and that teacher is still teaching and has a very long history of abusing pupils and I know of other boards.ie posters who've pm'd me telling me about what they witnessed at the hands of this teacher when they were pupils. This teacher has yet to be garda vetted but he's now known to the Gardai. He wasn't even suspended and in true Irish fashion teachers close rank. After discovering my child was abused by a teacher I've heard of so many cases from around the country and so many of them are hushed up, parents threatened or even paid off to keep quiet.

I do advise parents not to take garda vetting as proof that whatever individual they hand their child over to someone safe. Garda vetting only highlights what comes to the attention of the gardai.

While I fully believe you :to be fair I really should have put 99% of Schools not them all. Find it incredible your case was not dealt with properly. But I still believe vetting all teachers visitors is a gross waste of resources. It would not sort out your dilemma. I Presume you went to cops?

DublinWriter

It's horrible, but the only effective way around this is to have some sort of 'Citizen Licence'.

For an equivalent example, you have a driving licence. You may commit a heinous breach of the Road Traffic Act and have your licence revoked, therefore you cannot drive a car anymore.

Events around Ian Huntley show how easy it is for someone to play the current system of vetting.

It does sadden me how the civil-liberties brigade always dismiss this approach out of hand being a bit of an old-leftie myself, but I can't see any other effective way to deal with this issue.

amz5

Although it's not always practical, everyone should be vetted if they come into contact with children at school. If an adult is introduced to children in a safe place like a school, they aren't really considered to be a stranger or a threat by the child. While I think that most visitors/helpers that come to school are innocent, I wouldn't like to think that a child was lured into a false sense of security because they encountered an adult in school and then met them somewhere outside of school. In fairness, it could be used as a method of getting to know children.

That said, vetting is very far from foolproof. Many of the posters here have highlighted that fact.

Moonbeam

Garda vetting takes about 6-8 weeks and if you are vetted for one place you are not vetted for another.
I can't believe their are teachers in our schools not vetted,I know they have to be vetted for admission to teaching so are covered for work experience by that,it jsut seems crazy teachers have hired full time teachers and are leaving them with kids with out the added security of having had them vetted.

deisemum

Moonbeam wrote: »

Garda vetting takes about 6-8 weeks and if you are vetted for one place you are not vetted for another.
I can't believe their are teachers in our schools not vetted,I know they have to be vetted for admission to teaching so are covered for work experience by that,it jsut seems crazy teachers have hired full time teachers and are leaving them with kids with out the added security of having had them vetted.

Over two-thirds of teachers (from report a few months back) have yet to be vetted. There are massive backlogs, same in childcare. Resources are not there to speed it up.

DublinWriter

I'll say again - we need a license type system in this country for those who work with children.

The current system isn't working and is putting kids in danger as well as preventing people from getting employment.

pooch90

deisemum wrote: »

Over two-thirds of teachers (from report a few months back) have yet to be vetted. There are massive backlogs, same in childcare. Resources are not there to speed it up.

It's the established teachers that have been in their jobs years that haven't been vetted, these are the teachers who aren't yet part of the teaching council. In coming years all teachers will have to be registered with the Council or won't get paid (or so the story goes). This should mean all teachers will be vetted by then. Personally I would prefer that visitors to schools be vetted before the teachers eg sports trainers (coach more likely to see semi-naked children than teachers)

mikemac

pooch90 wrote: »

Personally I would prefer that visitors to schools be vetted before the teachers eg sports trainers (coach more likely to see semi-naked children than teachers)

I do GAA coaching, the club submitted the application and took 6 weeks to process.

Do training at three local schools also.
I manage training on my own out on the field or in the hall if it's raining.

I do have to go to the changing rooms before and after training to supervise there's no messing.
But I grab a spare teacher from the staff room to be there with me with the lads. It's never an issue, someone will be free for a few minutes

This is to protect me from claims and also the teacher will probably be able to control bullying and messing better then an outside coach.
One careless comment from a student about an inappropriate comment or touch by me and I'm finished and name ruined, mud sticks!

So from my experience, coaches wouldn't be in the changing room on their own.

pooch90

feelingstressed wrote: »

I do GAA coaching, the club submitted the application and took 6 weeks to process.

Do training at three local schools also.
I manage training on my own out on the field or in the hall if it's raining.

I do have to go to the changing rooms before and after training to supervise there's no messing.
But I grab a spare teacher from the staff room to be there with me with the lads. It's never an issue, someone will be free for a few minutes

This is to protect me from claims and also the teacher will probably be able to control bullying and messing better then an outside coach.
One careless comment from a student about an inappropriate comment or touch by me and I'm finished and name ruined, mud sticks!

So from my experience, coaches wouldn't be in the changing room on their own.

That's a lucky school but I know of plenty of schools who are small and rural that simply don't have the resources to have teachers going off to matches. I wasn't trying to insinuate anything.
The only time I've seen kids in a state of undress would be at matches or swimming. The school I was in last year was a small school. We had to bring the kids swimming, all female staff and we had nobody that we could get to go into the changing rooms with the boys. If each school could get a list of volunteers and get them all vetted then every eventuality would be covered. Or if each member of the Parents council was vetted, might serve a good purpose

mikemac

pooch90 wrote: »

If each school could get a list of volunteers and get them all vetted then every eventuality would be covered. Or if each member of the Parents council was vetted, might serve a good purpose

I hope you'll understand that a lot of men would be reluctant to do this, not on their own anyway.
As I said, one comment or false rumour started by a student and you can ruin a persons life instantly.
"No smoke without fire" is what people will say

So it'll have to be two or more volunteers at any time, safer for the volunteers and I suppose more reassuring for all parents too

Oh and rural schools wouldn't be playing in matches as they couldn't organize a team, too small The local kids play for the club and not the school.
So the GAA coaches take over here from the teachers.

Unless it's a skill blitz or something small. We'll grab somebody off the parents council usually for that.

pooch90

feelingstressed wrote: »

I hope you'll understand that a lot of men would be reluctant to do this, not on their own anyway.
As I said, one comment or false rumour started by a student and you can ruin a persons life instantly.
"No smoke without fire" is what people will say

So it'll have to be two or more volunteers at any time, safer for the volunteers and I suppose more reassuring for all parents too

Oh and rural schools wouldn't be playing in matches as they couldn't organize a team, too small The local kids play for the club and not the school.
So the GAA coaches take over here from the teachers.

Unless it's a skill blitz or something small. We'll grab somebody off the parents council usually for that.

I've taught in small rural schools and you're wrong, they do have teams and they do play matches.

I agree with the two volunteers at a time, it's not just men that get accused of inappropriate behaviour though.

To be honest the only way that such activities can continue in schools is if parents of kids become more involved in the school, are willing to get vetted and participate. Otherwise the buck will be continually passed and in the end the kids will be the ones who suffer.

amz5

Teachers who were teaching before the TC started automatically became members and if they paid every year they continued to have membership without getting Garda vetting. So many teachers who are members of the TC have not been Garda vetted. Eventually it'll come in that all teachers are Garda vetted, but that won't be anytime soon. I think that it should be separate to the TC anyway - there isn't all that much to the form. If the Principal was required to get all of the staff to send off the form at the start of September 2010 it wouldn't be all that big a deal.

byhookorbycrook

Rural schools can and do compete with great success at Cumann na mbunscol, smaller schools play each other and teamsizes are smaller. In our school, a coach is always accompanied by a teacher to any training sessions in the field, it's not fair to leave a coach with a class.

delta_bravo

Lollymcd wrote: »

Garda vetting only covers crimes the person has been convicted of. If 100 accusations have been made but no actual convictions made then nothing will show up in the Garda vetting. This, IMO, means the system doesn't work appropriately/effectively.

It doesn't mean that it's not worth applying for it, just means it's incomplete. Asking local people about whoever is coming in contact with the school children could be just as valuable.

That is completely impractical. So your plan is to bring in the local gossip to ask them what they think of Mr.X or Ms. Y? If the person found out I would say they would be furious.

That is what the vetting attempts to prevent, it is an objective statement of what this person has been convicted of, not what Ms. O'Leary down the road heard what they did.

Also there is no way the statement could show things you have not been convicted for. That would be completely unfair

DublinWriter

delta_bravo wrote: »

Also there is no way the statement could show things you have not been convicted for. That would be completely unfair

Which is precisely what happened with Ian Huntley and how he managed to get a job as a caretaker at a school.

mikemac

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Rural schools can and do compete with great success at Cumann na mbunscol, smaller schools play each other and teamsizes are smaller.

pooch90 wrote: »

I've taught in small rural schools and you're wrong, they do have teams and they do play matches.

I'm not saying you're wrong.
I never said rural schools don't play matches, I brought up the issues of numbers.

And when you coach a school for 30 students and two teachers across all classes, there just are not the numbers to field a team. And there are plenty of schools of this size.
Maybe some manage it, I've not seen it.

Anyway, this thread isn't about GAA
Getting parents involved is needed too

pooch90

feelingstressed wrote: »

I'm not saying you're wrong.
I never said rural schools don't play matches, I brought up the issues of numbers.

Yes you did....

feelingstressed wrote: »

Oh and rural schools wouldn't be playing in matches as they couldn't organize a team, too small

mikemac

A rural school might be 20 students and 200 hundred, any number realy.
I'd like to see you field a team in a school with 30 students spread over all classes.

That's my experience and gave numbers in my last post
And the schools you know are different.

We addressed the issue of outside coaches being vetted so what does it matter anyway or did you come back just to make a point?

Address the OP and the title of the thread
Garda vetting is a far more serious issue then matches

pooch90

feelingstressed wrote: »

We addressed the issue of outside coaches being vetted so what does it matter anyway or did you come back just to make a point?

Address the OP and the title of the thread
Garda vetting is a far more serious issue then matches

Why are you being so aggressive? You said you didn't say something, I pointed out that you did. End of story.

Toto Wolfcastle

If you have a problem with a post please report it rather than replying on thread. Back on topic please.

Treora

I think a more effective way would be to tell everyone that there are hidden cameras everywhere (barring toilets) and the data is automatically encrypted and stored in a server farm monitored by the data protection commissioner. If there is an allegation then the feed from hours either side of the incident is reviewed by a garda with reps from all parties.

This should stop people crying wolf and dangerous people from even looking sideways. It could also be used against serious bullying in the family courts too.

The cameras these days are microscopic and cheap as chips.