[Riddle me this!] New route 9 for Dalkey?

patrickbrophy18

I was on the site http://mkmap.com/dublin and I noticed that it seems to be pointing out a new or supposedly existing route for Dalkey. The route in question seems to be the number 9 route. This could be one of 4 things:

1. Someone drawing a bus route for a laugh to prepare for an april fools joke. In which case, the person who drew the route wasted their time.
2. Leaked information from Dublin Bus on a planned route.
3. A route that was scrapped.
4. Some hoax or false rumour on a new bus route.

Anyhow, the route appears to be very specific from the Dalkey end of things. It also appears to be using the newly built Monkstown Ring Road. As well as this it travels along the Upper Glenageary Road and up to Baker's Corner. Furthermore, it serves Stillorgan, UCD, Donnybrook and Dublin City itself, terminating in Mountjoy Square. If you go to the link provided and click on the 9 route from Dalkey, you'll see what I mean. However, I haven't seen this new bus in Dalkey nor has it been mentioned on the Dublin Bus site. If this is indeed a planned route, I look forward to it's introduction. If it is a hoax, it is very misleading to thos living along the so-called route. What do y'all reckon this is?:D:confused:

Cookie_Monster

There's no justification for it IMO. 7d and 8 barely carry any people as it is.

If they were to reassign one or two 46a's to this at rush hour is the only way i could see this happening as they are quiet enough after Bakers to justify a rerouting

AlekSmart

Hmmm Indeed...could this be in some way,shape or form,the new "Improved" Patton Flyer as brought to you by FirstGroup ?

ardmacha

There hasn't been a number 9 for how long, 40 years? I think it was subsumed into the number 10 when Belfield opened.

Cookie_Monster

ardmacha wrote: »

There hasn't been a number 9 for how long, 40 years? I think it was subsumed into the number 10 when Belfield opened.

or when the trams stopped :pac:

paulm17781

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

There's no justification for it IMO. 7d and 8 barely carry any people as it is.

Could that not be down to how infrequent they are though?

Personally I don't think Dalkey needs a bus route to town, it has the DART.

Cookie_Monster

paulm17781 wrote: »

Could that not be down to how infrequent they are though?

Personally I don't think Dalkey needs a bus route to town, it has the DART.

well they run at rush hour when there is peak demand. If they cannot get more than 10 people before Foxrock (which they frequently aren't) I fail to see how they could ever justiy expanding them. The DART is by far the more practical option from Dalkey

patrickbrophy18

paulm17781 wrote: »

Could that not be down to how infrequent they are though?

Well put there. Nobody is going to use those services if they are infrequent. This is due to the fact that people will perceive them as unreliable and who therefore won't bother with them. Nevertheless, I don't like the comment afterwards which states that if you have the DART, that's the only mode of transport into town you should have. That kind of contradicts what you said before it. If this is the case, why are areas like Monkstown serviced by a frequent bus into town? Buses like the 46a have two functions essentially: one, to act as a feeder bus from Dun Laoghaire DART Station to UCD and another to Bring people from the Dual Carriageway into town. However, I would like to see that 9 route introduced. Not only would it strengthen our social relations with communities such as Deansgrange and Stillorgan but, it would also provide a wealth of new clientel to Dalkey and also, Fitzpatricks Hotel which happens to lie along the route as expressed in the map.

paulm17781

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

Nevertheless, I don't like the comment afterwards which states that if you have the DART, that's the only mode of transport into town you should have. That kind of contradicts what you said before it. If this is the case, why are areas like Monkstown serviced by a frequent bus into town?.

There are a lot of areas with DART / duplicate bus routes along them. Personally I think with the DART, the buses could be reduced and put to better use elsewhere. Perhaps some routes made more like feeder services. The old 8, the 45 spring to mind as services which pretty much followed the DART line and I'm sure could have been made better. The way the 8 is now for example.

I am slightly living in a fantasy land when I say that but I think an overhaul of the bus service is needed and these are routes that could be removed to make way for better routes.

patrickbrophy18

paulm17781 wrote: »

I am slightly living in a fantasy land when I say that but I think an overhaul of the bus service is needed and these are routes that could be removed to make way for better routes.

Do you think though that any of these better routes aside from serving places such as Blackrock, Dun Laoghaire and the like, should also serve Dalkey? One of the major benefits of the so-called route 9 is that it happens to serve my road. If this was the case, I would be getting it many times a week!

patrickbrophy18

I thought I should mention that ever since I told my friend about the 7d, he has been taking it religiously on a daily basis. He was saying that "it's a life saver". This should slightly strengthen my arguement!

paulm17781

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

Do you think though that any of these better routes aside from serving places such as Blackrock, Dun Laoghaire and the like, should also serve Dalkey?

Perhaps, if there were a sensible route.

I just don't think having a bus route that pretty much replicates a train line / other bus route is necessary. I'm sure there are better routes that could be devised. Example (and I haven't thought about this) Sandyford Luas to Dalkey DART station taking in some surrounding areas too. I'm not suggesting that is a specifically good route but I think we should be using the infrastructure in a smarter way.

I quite like the new 8 (though I've never gotten it to Dalkey). It deviates quite a lot from the DART line. If the 9 were a more frequent version of this it could be good. I just don't think town should always be the focus when the DART is available.

patrickbrophy18

paulm17781 wrote: »

Perhaps, if there were a sensible route.
I quite like the new 8 (though I've never gotten it to Dalkey). It deviates quite a lot from the DART line. If the 9 were a more frequent version of this it could be good. I just don't think town should always be the focus when the DART is available.

So then you're agreeing with me that Dalkey needs a more frequent or better service? If so, thank you!

I visited MKMaps a few months ago and since then, route 9 was drawn on it. That is, it usen't to be there. If this is the case, how did the "drawer" know about it? I am very puzzled, yet excited about this. Don't want to get my hopes up though. There is nothing about this route on the Dublin Bus website. As far is I know, the Monkstown Ring Road is not serviced by any buses at the moment. Maybe route 9 was planned 40 years ago and never went ahead when the Monkstown Ring Road was scrapped. The Monkstown Ring Road was originally supposed to be built 40 years ago or there (erm..then) abouts. If the route is introduced according to the map, I hope to god that it will be a frequent one. The reason why I use bold type face is that it could be a hoax. A route 7E was on the cards a year or two ago from Blackrock and was never implemented. It was supposed to hail the completion of the Blackrock QBC. However, this is still drawn up on the map from the website in question. Maybe route 9 is a dud as well.

Victor

I had though there was talk of a route 9 about 2-3 years ago, but didn't hear about it again until I saw it on MKmaps about 3 weeks ago.

Cookie_Monster

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

Do you think though that any of these better routes aside from serving places such as Blackrock, Dun Laoghaire and the like, should also serve Dalkey? One of the major benefits of the so-called route 9 is that it happens to serve my road. If this was the case, I would be getting it many times a week!

Blackrock and DL are large urban areas, Dalkey is not.

Your un-ending bias to try get a local backwater the best transport links in the capital isin't even funny anymore. Dalkey is already OVER-served by public transport. DB would be insane to put anymore buses or routes into it.

Cookie_Monster

Victor wrote: »

I had though there was talk of a route 9 about 2-3 years ago, but didn't hear about it again until I saw it on MKmaps about 3 weeks ago.

This was the time the 8 was revived wasn't it. Maybe it was one of the route options

patrickbrophy18

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Your un-ending bias to try get a local backwater the best transport links in the capital isin't even funny anymore. Dalkey is already OVER-served by public transport. DB would be insane to put anymore buses or routes into it.

"OVER-served by public transport" is it? Dalkey is one of the most under-served areas in the Dun Laoghaire burough. I notice that your location is Cabinteely. If so, how could you possibly know or notice this? Evidently, you think that my arguement is a joke. I am being deadly serious about this matter. I think you too would be quite "bias" if you lived in my area. The level of isolation in Dalkey is a joke. If you had it your way, no buses would be serving Dalkey at all! Judging by the mere level of bitter objection towards tranport in my locality suggests something of an underlying chip on your shoulder towards Dalkey people. Furthermore, you were one of the people who suggested on "The Patton Flyer" thread that it shouldn't be running.

Cookie_Monster

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

"OVER-served by public transport" is it? Dalkey is one of the most under-served areas in the Dun Laoghaire burough. I notice that your location is Cabinteely. If so, how could you possibly know or notice this? Evidently, you think that my arguement is a joke. I am being deadly serious about this matter.

I lived in Dalkey for a year. Never had an issue with the amount of transport available. Rush hour fully catered for by Dart, 7d and 59. During the day by DART, 8 and 59 (and Patton flyer), Nitelink also terminate in Dalkey, not to mention Taxi rank. What more could you want?

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

If you had it your way, no buses would be serving Dalkey at all! Judging by the mere level of bitter objection towards tranport in my locality suggests something of an underlying chip on your shoulder towards Dalkey people.

You can read my mind can you? Where did I ever suggest dalkey should have no buses?

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

Furthermore, you were one of the people who suggested on "The Patton Flyer" thread that it shouldn't be running.

no it shouldn't but there'll be an Aircoach soon enough anyway. I've used the Patton before as there was no other option, that doesn't mean it isin't an illegal service operating outside the law, run by an owner who thinks he can do whatever he likes

patrickbrophy18

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

You can read my mind can you? Where did I ever suggest dalkey should have no buses?

When you stated that it is "OVER-served". Anyway, to a certain extent I can understand that people doubt or hesitate the sense of having bus routes into town when the DART is already there. However, similarly to what I said in a previous post, the 9 route is made up of two parts essentially: 1. Dalkey to UCD (via Monkstown Ring Road and Stillorgan); and 2. Stillorgan/UCD to Mountjoy Square. Therefore, there is a two fold benefit to this route. Also, it serves to up the frequency of buses from Stillorgan onwards.

Here is where I will slightly break the bias. While the buses serving the area in question aren't exactly packed, I don't exactly consider them empty either. Between Dun Laoghaire and Dalkey, the 59 can fill up quite rapidly but mainly at peak times. Off peak, there is about half this. Would I be correct in assuming that this is a natural dynamic of passenger accumulation? However, what I am pointing out is that the weak nature of some of the services in the area (namely the 8 and 7d in particular) or indeed any service for that matter, isn't necessarily inviting. I have often heard people from my area say that the reason why they don't avail of the services present is due to their irregularity. People aren't going to bother with a service such as the 8 which comes seven times a day with no service at the weekends. Although, I have seen about 8-10 people on it when ever I have boarded it from the Upper Glenageary Road. I even took a head count on the sly to ensure accuracy of the afformentioned figures. This was at about 12:30, an off-peak hour. I would consider this a decent amount given that it hasn't completed even a quarter of it's journey length. I will admit that Dalkey isn't the only area affected by a relatively poor bus service as areas such as Stepaside and Bray are in desperate need of a better service. The recent cut to the 45 route was an absolute disgrace. Blackrock also needs the 114 running on a Sunday with better frequency to it and the 17 which at present is not the case. The 111 is by far the worst case of cut backs I've seen and isn't that much better than the 8. The 111 needs it's old frequency restored. Anyway, I was probably a bit harsh when I suggested the whole chip on the shoulder thing and for that I appologize. Can we at least agree to disagree on this one?

Cookie_Monster

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

The 111 needs it's old frequency restored. [/B]Anyway, I was probably a bit harsh when I suggested the whole chip on the shoulder thing and for that I appologize. Can we at least agree to disagree on this one?

Why, its an exact duplicate of the 7.

The only 2 reasons for restoring the 111 service would be in they ran the 7 down the Sallyglen Road to decrease journey times. this would then give a good split of 45a, 111, 7, 59 serving the areas between Supervalue Killiney and Dun Laoghaire along a multitude of main and estate roads. Giving all the housing estate a reasonable distance to a bus rather than routing the 7 & 111 down through the same place in Sallynoggin estate. The Sallyglen road has layins for bus-stops built in and I suspect the 7 was always meant to divert down this road when it was finished. However I'm sure it was objected to by someone as "taking away our bus".

secondly if they were to restore the 111 the have to make it some what relevant to when DARTs are actually running as its meant to be a feeder bus. It should be departing 5 mins after certain DARTs and arriving 5 mins before others are due or the whole service is pointless and covered by the 7

angel01

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

When you stated that it is "OVER-served". Anyway, to a certain extent I can understand that people doubt or hesitate the sense of having bus routes into town when the DART is already there. However, similarly to what I said in a previous post, the 9 route is made up of two parts essentially: 1. Dalkey to UCD (via Monkstown Ring Road and Stillorgan); and 2. Stillorgan/UCD to Mountjoy Square. Therefore, there is a two fold benefit to this route. Also, it serves to up the frequency of buses from Stillorgan onwards.

Here is where I will slightly break the bias. While the buses serving the area in question aren't exactly packed, I don't exactly consider them empty either. Between Dun Laoghaire and Dalkey, the 59 can fill up quite rapidly but mainly at peak times. Off peak, there is about half this. Would I be correct in assuming that this is a natural dynamic of passenger accumulation? However, what I am pointing out is that the weak nature of some of the services in the area (namely the 8 and 7d in particular) or indeed any service for that matter, isn't necessarily inviting. I have often heard people from my area say that the reason why they don't avail of the services present is due to their irregularity. People aren't going to bother with a service such as the 8 which comes seven times a day with no service at the weekends. Although, I have seen about 8-10 people on it when ever I have boarded it from the Upper Glenageary Road. I even took a head count on the sly to ensure accuracy of the afformentioned figures. This was at about 12:30, an off-peak hour. I would consider this a decent amount given that it hasn't completed even a quarter of it's journey length. I will admit that Dalkey isn't the only area affected by a relatively poor bus service as areas such as Stepaside and Bray are in desperate need of a better service. The recent cut to the 45 route was an absolute disgrace. Blackrock also needs the 114 running on a Sunday with better frequency to it and the 17 which at present is not the case. The 111 is by far the worst case of cut backs I've seen and isn't that much better than the 8. The 111 needs it's old frequency restored. Anyway, I was probably a bit harsh when I suggested the whole chip on the shoulder thing and for that I appologize. Can we at least agree to disagree on this one?

Bray has the dart, it technically is not in Dublin so they don't really deserve any route. Sorry all these routes have the dart and if I could use the dart I would. It makes me sick.

Cookie_Monster

It'll have a Luas soon enough if you believe the DoT :pac:

J_Dublin15

With some areas of this city being under-served and having issues with buses being over full every morning since the service cuts but have no alternative to use the bus, I find it sickening someone is complaining that they ONLY have a regular dart service and not a regular bus service as well.

Hungerford

Victor wrote: »

I had though there was talk of a route 9 about 2-3 years ago, but didn't hear about it again until I saw it on MKmaps about 3 weeks ago.

I wouldn't pay any heed to it. According to MKmaps, the Dart terminates in Bray.

Cookie_Monster

Hungerford wrote: »

I wouldn't pay any heed to it. According to MKmaps, the Dart terminates in Bray.

And 111 manages to go up to Ballybrack while 45a does not

DART doesn't go to Malahide either

No 7N but a 7E?


All in all a pretty crap map and thats with searches limited to a very narrow area

patrickbrophy18

angel01 wrote: »

Bray has the dart, it technically is not in Dublin so they don't really deserve any route. Sorry all these routes have the dart and if I could use the dart I would. It makes me sick.

DART is short for Dublin Area Rapid Transit. Therefore, it should really be covering the entire Short Hop Zone. In 2015, it will bar Kilcoole. Bray of course deserves more than just the DART as it's population is 40000 strong. A lot of people consider Bray a suburb of Dublin despite it's technically being in Wicklow. Don't forget that there are plenty of areas in Bray which are a good hours walk from the DART so of course they need a bus and a regular one at that. The 84, 184, and 45 routes are pathetic excuses for routes. Anyway, back to the main topic. The route 9 appears to be a hoax as Cookie_Monster points out because the MKMaps site seems to be riddled with false routes. I'm just saying that it would be a handy number for me and plenty of others if it existed.

Victor

It fairness MKmaps is a public project like wikipedia. Much of the work was done by AFAIK KC61.

So put up or shut up.

patrickbrophy18

Victor wrote: »

It fairness MKmaps is a public project like wikipedia. Much of the work was done by AFAIK KC61.

So put up or shut up.

Oh, erm sorry!:D

markpb

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

Don't forget that there are plenty of areas in Bray which are a good hours walk from the DART so of course they need a bus and a regular one at that.

Actually, what they need is a local bus network which brings them to the Dart station and to other parts of Bray. Why provide buses to bring them to the city centre when the Dart already does that.

Cookie_Monster

markpb wrote: »

Actually, what they need is a local bus network which brings them to the Dart station and to other parts of Bray. Why provide buses to bring them to the city centre when the Dart already does that.

184/185 does that (badly I admit)

Don't foget you also have the Red buses (finnegans?)

patrickbrophy18

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

184/185 does that (badly I admit)

Don't foget you also have the Red buses (finnegans?)

Amen to that! Are finnegans effective? Just curious!

KC61

Apologies to one and all but I've been one of the people unable to post for the last fortnight courtesy of the boards.ie hackers! I will try to comment on the posts above:

Anyway, first of all the MkMap. I have no idea who set the thing up, but it was mentioned here a few years back. At the time I had some spare time on my hands and set about drawing most of the routes. I did not get them all done, but a significant number. It has NOTHING to do with Dublin Bus - that point must be stressed.

However, in the meantime, there have been some fairly major changes. However, there are no contact details on the map with a view to deleting routes that no longer exist (e.g. Localink, 93, 7E (yes it did briefly exist), 40C), so the thing has largely been rendered redundant.

Some genius has now drawn in completely fabricated routes 6 and 9 onto the map linking Dalkey with the city. They are false and are in no way planned by Dublin Bus or bear any relationship with reality, be it present day or historical.

For the current network of routes there is only one accurate map and that is the schematic spider map launched before Christmas by Dublin Bus themselves. It is located at http://www.dublinbus.ie/PageFiles/2814/NetworkDiagram.pdf

When Dublin Bus are launching the first phase of the network review it will be on their own website - not one that someone else prepared.

There have been numerous debates on the whys and wherefores of the bus service in Dalkey here (all started by the same poster). I am afraid that in the current climate I cannot see any new routes serving that part of the city. The 7D and 8 cover the peak hour travel to/from the city, and the 59 links the area with Dun Laoghaire. Loadings are strong on the 59, but are mainly OAPs. There is a very very limited demand for a bus service, and I have to say that by and large Dublin Bus have got this one right.

The DART caters for the vast majority of public transport users there and anyone needing to link in with Stillorgan only has to get a 59 to connect with a 46a, 75 or 746.

Why was the cutback to the 45 a disgrace? Two high frequency service were introduced along much of the route - the 145 along the Stillorgan QBC linking Bray with the city, and the 4/4a were introduced linking the city with Blackrock and Stradbrook. The reality is that most of the 45 passengers switched to the 145. The main passenger groups on the 45 are schoolchildren going to schools in Blackrock and along the Rock Road who are still catered for.

The 114 carried virtually no one in the off-peak and frankly could not be justified in its previous state. Similarly the 111 is shadowed by the 7 which is more than sufficient in the off-peak.

To suggest that there are no local buses in Bray is frankly nonsense. Virtually every part of the town is served by one of the multitude of bus services there:
145 - links Kilmacanogue, Ballywaltrim, Killarney Lane with Bray Main Street (and some buses service Bray Station);
45A - links Ballywaltrim, Killarney Lane with Bray Station;
185 links Bray station with Palermo, Fassaroe, and Enniskerry;
45 links Bray Main Street with the Vevay and Oldcourt;
184 links Bray station with the Vevay, Greystones, Delgany and Kilpedder
84 links Bray with the Vevay, Greystones, Kilcoole and Newcastle
Finnegans links the Southern Cross and with the Station and LUAS (times at http://www.finnegan-bray.ie/index_files/Page661.htm)

Finnegans are a very reputable operator who have shown excellent commitment to the area - in fact they are probably one of the best!

Please try to keep a perspective here. There are other areas of the city that have a far greater need for an improved and redesigned bus service than Dalkey. I have nothing against Dalkey, but in terms of the overall availability of public transport it has a good service.

KC61

Just to add, a serious flaw with the mkmap idea is that it cannot deal with route variations - thereby where a route has occasional variations, you cannot differentiate it from the core service.

patrickbrophy18

KC61 wrote: »

Just to add, a serious flaw with the mkmap idea is that it cannot deal with route variations - thereby where a route has occasional variations, you cannot differentiate it from the core service.

KC61, thanks for clearing that up for me. Having heard what a lot of people have said, I guess the only thing to do is wait and see what the Dublin Bus Network Review has in store for the general Dublin area. Correct me if I'm wrong, Dublin Bus are conducting a review of the network at some stage this year, aren't they? I am aware that the last one was conducted some 3 or 4 years ago.:D

markpb

KC61 wrote: »

Just to add, a serious flaw with the mkmap idea is that it cannot deal with route variations - thereby where a route has occasional variations, you cannot differentiate it from the core service.

Some might say that the reliance on route variants is a flaw of DB and not of MKmap ;o) One of TfLs golden rules is that a bus route should have a single start, a single end and a single route between those points. Anything else just makes it confusing for the customer. Why does the 7 have so many variant route numbers? Why do some buses terminate in the city centre sometimes and cross through at other times? Why does the 27b have three different northern terminii and two different routes?

None of those things are conducive to convincing people to switch from their car (which is the ultimate point to point mode of transport) to a bus.

patrickbrophy18

There appears to be another hoax route on mkmaps. The number 12????? Y'all should check it out. The fictitious route takes a rather odd route to the N11.:D

Victor

All well and good (although hoaxes may lead people to think it exists), but when providing a service like that, it would probably be better to run it somewhere that has existing routes, e.g. along the 8 or 59, as there are existing bus stops and it gives people choices.