supplementing my crossfit

JonnyF

hi guys,

this may seem like an odd question. I'm currently following the programme over on crossfitfootball.com and find it great for strength and power but i still haven't been able to put on th kind of bulk i'd like. i lift to help my rugby and i despite feeling stronger (and lifting a lot more than previously) i would still like to be a bit bigger.

Right now i'm 6'3, about 15 stone. I've relatively low body fat, just a little bit of fat over the abs really nothing much elsewhere. But i'd like to develop my legs and arms. Was looking at some game photo's and noticed how skinny my arms look. I'm benching 100kg easily, can press 70kg overhead and am regularly doing weighted chin ups and pull ups with up to 20kg extra.

My question is this, will i ever be able to get mass in my arms, shoulders and legs doing a crossfit programme or am i fooling myself. do i need to go after something like 70sbig.com and pure muscle group specific stuff rather than the compund explosive stuff? can i mix and match? amybe alternate my days from pure strength training to crossfit? or do i need to pick one and stick to it? lastly, is it down to eating?

Transform

yes eat more and just make most sessions have a stength bias at the start of the session and thow i a crossfit metcon or whatever at the end

Your overhead press is quite weak also

what are you squatting and deadlifting and typical diet for one day

JonnyF

a typical day is as follows

Up at 630, glass of water and piece of fruit on the way to the gym
1 hour approx in the gym with a met con and strength work as taken of CFFB
after gym i have a smoothie of frozen fruit, whey, milk and muesli

11am bowl of porridge with raisins and wheatgerm

1400 lunch - normally brown rice or wholewheat pasta with chicken/turkey and a tomato sauce

1600 snack - yogurt and some cottage cheese on toast, if it's a rugby day (tuesday or thursday) i'll have something a bit more substantial as this will be my pretraining meal, normally this will be a sandwich on brown bread with some lean protein and tomatoes/onions etc.

if i don't have rugby i'll go home and usually go for a run nothing too serious just 3-5k and when i come back i'll have dinner. this is usually high protein and as low carb as i can so omelet or some fish/chicken with greens.

2200 before bed i have a glass of milk and my ZMA

My squat isn't as good as i'd like it to be, i'm squatting 150kg and deadlifting 145kg. my aim is to really ramp up my lifting as the season winds down and i don't have to worry about soreness from training or matches.

Colm_OReilly

I'd largely echo what Dominic has said re: food.

Here's an example (in the comments) of what our guys ate while bulking up before Christmas.

Your squat being higher than your dead sets off alarm bells for me. Have you had someone knowledgeable look at your squat and dead form? Chances are you're not going deep enough on the squat.

JonnyF

i did at the start of the season but i've been training mainly on my own since then. i think it's more that my DL form is off rather than the squat to be honest. with my squats i do three sets of five at 150kg and get down to where my thigh is parallel to the floor.

JonnyF

Colm_OReilly wrote: »

.

Here's an example (in the comments) of what our guys ate while bulking up before Christmas.

looking at that shows how far off i am eating wise. i'll try to up the meat intake but chicken for breakfast will be tough. back playing serious rugby this year after a couple of years playing social stuff (j2 level) at the end of college/start of job aiming to get back into the AIL squad for next year and think i need a good 6-9kg of muscle to make the impact i want to. as a squad we'll be doing organised weight training in preseason but i need to up my game before it gets to that stage. thanks for the advice

Colm_OReilly

JonnyF,

Sounds like you've got a plan for getting to AIL level. 9Kg shouldn't be a problem with the eating.

I'll be honest your squat sounds high. Post a vid of your squat/deadlift we can have a look. If you're around Sandyford you can pop out to us in CrossFit Ireland and we can give you pointers in person.

JonnyF

i've been meaning to come up and try out the new digs in sandyford for the last while. i'll definitely try and come up soon and give it a whirl. i'll take any help i can get. the 70s big eating plan sure looks like fun too!

Barry.Oglesby

Basically your question is "which website should I follow?"

I think you can do better if educating yourself about training is the way you want to go. Start hoovering up some books on training and the ideas behind it or entrust yourself to a proper coach if you don't want to do the reading.

What is your position/desired weight.

JonnyF

I'm a sponge for information but maybe i'm guilty of dipping in and out of too many different training sites. i play 6 or 8 right now but i know they see me playing second row next year. looking to be around 105kg, my mobility is very important to how i play, plus i want to be light enough to be of use at lineout time which is probably the best part of my game so i think that's a good target too aim for without getting sloppy.
i'll have our strength and conditioning coach for preseason but gonna be on my own for the next two/three months and want to make sure i've a good base of strength before i move in with them as there'd be a danger of getting left behind once they kick off.

Transform

Colm_OReilly wrote: »

I'd largely echo what Dominic has said re: food.

Here's an example (in the comments) of what our guys ate while bulking up before Christmas.

Your squat being higher than your dead sets off alarm bells for me. Have you had someone knowledgeable look at your squat and dead form? Chances are you're not going deep enough on the squat.

exactly my thoughts on the squat versus deadlift - DL should be way more.

Hope you are eating right now reading this!

Barry.Oglesby

JonnyF wrote: »

I'm a sponge for information but maybe i'm guilty of dipping in and out of too many different training sites. i play 6 or 8 right now but i know they see me playing second row next year. looking to be around 105kg, my mobility is very important to how i play, plus i want to be light enough to be of use at lineout time which is probably the best part of my game so i think that's a good target too aim for without getting sloppy.
i'll have our strength and conditioning coach for preseason but gonna be on my own for the next two/three months and want to make sure i've a good base of strength before i move in with them as there'd be a danger of getting left behind once they kick off.

So to break it down, you want to be heavier, lighter, bigger and more mobile?
You simply can't serve all those masters. Pick one. From the sounds of it, getting to 105kg is probably your priority, you're small enough for your current position. Done properly, your mobility won't suffer at all.

So forget the conditioning, if hypertrophy is your goal, you'll need to cut back on that.

Also forget this "bit of flab" business. You need to know the following before you begin to programme. 1. What is your current body composition. 2. What are your upper body strength scores? 3. What are your lower body strength scores. 4. what are your muscular endurance scores.

You can use any test you want as long as it's constant and repeatable. For hypertrophy it's always a good idea to get some measurements too; arm, chest, thigh etc. as often improvements can be hidden by the extra bodyfat. Here's the tests at Informed Performance:
- body composition test in mm
- 1RM bench press
- Max pull ups
- Max push ups in 60sec
- Max inverted rows in 60sec
- 1RM Trap Bar deadlift
We test them, then retest at the end of a training cycle. I'm not saying you should use our template but you need something quantifiable. And drop the crossfit football thing... jeebus.

Transform

totally agree with the measurements - also throw a named crossfit workout into the measuring so you can see that you are improving e.g. the chief, fran or helen.

at your weight and level you really need to be hitting a double body weight deadlift and a body weight overhead press.

Barry.Oglesby

Whay would you use a conditioning workout to measure mass gain? The guy needs to put on mass for the position he's playing. I wouldn't touch a conditioning workout until I saw that the weight was going in the right direction, upwards, and that the metrics that actually need to be measured were improving.

I think there's a lot to be said for crossfit but that crossfit football site is absolutely terrible.

Chet Zar

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

Whay would you use a conditioning workout to measure mass gain? The guy needs to put on mass for the position he's playing. I wouldn't touch a conditioning workout until I saw that the weight was going in the right direction, upwards, and that the metrics that actually need to be measured were improving.

I think there's a lot to be said for crossfit but that crossfit football site is absolutely terrible.

+1 if you want to build mass, build mass - conditioning is not the focus and don't forget rugby training will take care of that. Very hard to build mass if you have hardly any energy left over from drills on the rugby pitch to hit heavy weights.

Chet Zar

+1 if you want to build mass, build mass - conditioning is not the focus and don't forget rugby training will take care of that. Very hard to build mass if you have hardly any energy left over from drills on the rugby pitch - AND separate conditioning work as suggested - to hit heavy weights.

Edwardius

Lads, CFFB has a strength workout most days too. Look to the right of the page, usually 5s for the slow lifts and doubles or the like for snatches/power snatches. The conditioning stuff is fairly short if done properly too.

JonnyF

Dead Ed wrote: »

Lads, CFFB has a strength workout most days too. Look to the right of the page, usually 5s for the slow lifts and doubles or the like for snatches/power snatches. The conditioning stuff is fairly short if done properly too.

i've been happy enough with the workouts from CFFB, all of my lifts have gone up but i can't put real weight on with it so that's why i need a rethink

Edwardius

Hmmm, I guess you could try what the lads said and just eat more. If you can't handle meat in the mornings use a protein supplement and throw in an extra litre or two of milk during the day. You say you do 5k runs on all non-training days, which might be a factor too, as the extra cardio stuff probably won't help with adding muscle. Try cutting back on it for a few weeks and see what happens. You might add some bodyfat too but that's fairly easy to get rid of.

d'Oracle

I had been reluctant to post in this thread as the guy had gotten advice from 3 coaches uninterrupted.

I didn't want to ruin it.
However, now thats gone.

70'sbig isn't a training plan nor does it contain an eating plan.
Its basically eat **** loads and drink a gallon of milk.
Thats hardly a plan. Its basically a bit of fun and motivation.
Im not sure how you could "follow" it other than reading the comments and thinking Pizarenko is cool.

JonnyF

d'Oracle wrote: »

I had been reluctant to post in this thread as the guy had gotten advice from 3 coaches uninterrupted.

I didn't want to ruin it.
However, now thats gone.

70'sbig isn't a training plan nor does it contain an eating plan.
Its basically eat **** loads and drink a gallon of milk.
Thats hardly a plan. Its basically a bit of fun and motivation.
Im not sure how you could "follow" it other than reading the comments and thinking Pizarenko is cool.

started to realise that last night when i went digging through it a bit more and when i looked at their food faq it was all cheese burgers and milkshakes. the only thing that did jump out at me was that Starting Strength by rippatoe seems to be their bible over there. anyone read it? is it worth an amazon flutter?

d'Oracle

JonnyF wrote: »

started to realise that last night when i went digging through it a bit more and when i looked at their food faq it was all cheese burgers and milkshakes. the only thing that did jump out at me was that Starting Strength by rippatoe seems to be their bible over there. anyone read it? is it worth an amazon flutter?

I have a few times.
There are a few different opinions on it.
Its basically an extended lecture on form for a few lifts which Rippetoe believes are best for adding mass & strength. Along with some other exercises. And a very simple programme for getting big & strong for beginners/novices.
I like it, but my opinion is not what you are looking for.

To the best of my knowledge the three coaches who posted ITT have three divergent opinions on it.

The guys who set up 70sbig work/workout at Rippetoes Gym, so there is a bias there.

JonnyF

d'Oracle wrote: »

The guys who set up 70sbig work/workout at Rippetoes Gym, so there is a bias there.

those devious meatheads. the league i'm playing in winds down next week so i'm going to look to implement this stuff then. particularly tracking my base level as described above. it looks like the general consensus is eat more, have someone give my form a good going over and maybe scale back the conditioning work, i suppose i can always chip away at my fitness levels again when i start to make progress here but you're all right, there's probably no point buring calories on 5k runs that could be going elsewhere,

Barry.Oglesby

Consensus never solved a damn thing. If you went with this forum's consensus you'd squat big, do ring dips, make your own pull up bar while doing handstands and take dianabol while running 10k. Consenses conschmensus.

JonnyF

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

Consensus never solved a damn thing. If you went with this forum's consensus you'd squat big, do ring dips, make your own pull up bar while doing handstands and take dianabol while running 10k. Consenses conschmensus.

well now i don't know what to do. i thought the internet would solve all my problems. maybe i should go ask jeeves

d'Oracle

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

Consensus never solved a damn thing. If you went with this forum's consensus you'd squat big, do ring dips, make your own pull up bar while doing handstands and take dianabol while running 10k. Consenses conschmensus.

I don't see anything in this thread to suggest any of that.

Chet Zar

I would say human nature is to want to do everything at once - better to focus on one thing and really nail it, move on, and nail the next one on your list. Otherwise you can just end up frustrated wondering what - if anything - you've really achieved!

Barry.Oglesby

d'Oracle wrote: »

I don't see anything in this thread to suggest any of that.

I was exagerrating, and also making a subtle point about crossfit football. Too subtle obviously.

d'Oracle

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

I was exagerrating, and also making a subtle point about crossfit football. Too subtle obviously.

Evidentially.
I haven't paid a huge amount of attention to Crossfit Foot-the-ball.
Sorry.

token

JonnyF wrote: »

i've been happy enough with the workouts from CFFB, all of my lifts have gone up but i can't put real weight on with it so that's why i need a rethink

I'd probably keep going with CFFB if I were you just eat more and back off a bit on the metcons when you need to. I was essentially doing this at CFI under Colm. When it started getting hard to keep the linear progression going on the main lifts I started easing off the metcons and dropped them back to just 1 or 2 a week or even none some weeks if recovery was an issue. Increasing the lifts should be number one priority.

kevpants

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

So to break it down, you want to be heavier, lighter, bigger and more mobile?
You simply can't serve all those masters. Pick one. From the sounds of it, getting to 105kg is probably your priority, you're small enough for your current position. Done properly, your mobility won't suffer at all.

So forget the conditioning, if hypertrophy is your goal, you'll need to cut back on that.

Also forget this "bit of flab" business. You need to know the following before you begin to programme. 1. What is your current body composition. 2. What are your upper body strength scores? 3. What are your lower body strength scores. 4. what are your muscular endurance scores.

You can use any test you want as long as it's constant and repeatable. For hypertrophy it's always a good idea to get some measurements too; arm, chest, thigh etc. as often improvements can be hidden by the extra bodyfat. Here's the tests at Informed Performance:
- body composition test in mm
- 1RM bench press
- Max pull ups
- Max push ups in 60sec
- Max inverted rows in 60sec
- 1RM Trap Bar deadlift
We test them, then retest at the end of a training cycle. I'm not saying you should use our template but you need something quantifiable. And drop the crossfit football thing... jeebus.

Good post noob.... whoever you are.

I read the Crossfit Strength Bias brochure, the one they make you pay for. Some ex-powerlifter paid for it and gave it to me. My recollection is that by adding heavy deadlifts to your circuit training = great success. Underpants gnomes.

I'm no coach but surely as a skinny, up and coming rugby player, in the off season before you make the breakthrough to the big boys, you should be concentrating on getting bigger/stronger?

Crossfit with a strength bias is to rugby forwards what Terry's chocolate with an orange bias is to fat people.

Hanley

kevpants wrote: »

Good post noob.... whoever you are.

I read the Crossfit Strength Bias brochure, the one they make you pay for. Some ex-powerlifter paid for it and gave it to me. My recollection is that by adding heavy deadlifts to your circuit training = great success. Underpants gnomes.

Heh.. and there was me thinking YOU were an ex-powerlifter... Ya know, since the last time you did a sanctioned comp was the same time I did!

BobbyOLeary

kevpants wrote: »

Crossfit with a strength bias is to rugby forwards what Terry's chocolate with an orange bias is to fat people.

Awesome. Stolen.

d'Oracle

kevpants wrote: »

Good post noob.... whoever you are.

I read the Crossfit Strength Bias brochure, the one they make you pay for. Some ex-powerlifter paid for it and gave it to me. My recollection is that by adding heavy deadlifts to your circuit training = great success. Underpants gnomes.

I'm no coach but surely as a skinny, up and coming rugby player, in the off season before you make the breakthrough to the big boys, you should be concentrating on getting bigger/stronger?

Crossfit with a strength bias is to rugby forwards what Terry's chocolate with an orange bias is to fat people.

As a casual observation, why did you bring CF:SB into this?
This is about CF: FB.

Get a clue Broseppe.

Hanley

d'Oracle wrote: »

As a casual observation, why did you bring CF:SB into this?
This is about CF: FB.

Get a clue Broseppe.

Crossfit Facebook?

brianthebard

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

Consensus never solved a damn thing. If you went with this forum's consensus you'd squat big, do ring dips, make your own pull up bar while doing handstands and take dianabol while running 10k. Consenses conschmensus.

Riiiight. Doubt you'd have a problem if people followed the informed performance website's consensus though huh?

Barry.Oglesby

brianthebard wrote: »

Riiiight. Doubt you'd have a problem if people followed the informed performance website's consensus though huh?

The IP website and the programmes on it are not written by consensus. They're autered.

Consensus is compromise. Everyone wants to be 5 different things. You can only serve one master. Nobody can gain muscle, burn fat, learn gymnastics and get better at their sport all at once. You have limits, and they're more restrictive than you think. All the drugs in the world aren't going to get the OP to 105kgs while doing Julian (Pushups/inverted sit ups/calf raises for 80-3-6) or Wurzel (Isometric crucifix holds for time). You can put "Football" or "Rugby" in front of or after any moniker you like, it doesn't change it. There is no pdf file, e-book or anything out there that has changed damn thing about strength, muscle gain or the like since Moscow 82.

d'Oracle

brianthebard wrote: »

Riiiight. Doubt you'd have a problem if people followed the informed performance website's consensus though huh?

I doubt anyone who is not training at IP could follow the Iprograms.
I can't make heads or tails of most of it.

Barry.Oglesby

d'Oracle wrote: »

I doubt anyone who is not training at IP could follow the Iprograms.
I can't make heads or tails of most of it.

What don't you understand? They're really simple to follow, we have a good few people following them offsite as far away as Vegas (baby).

Generally when I don't understand something I ask questions about it rather than casting crustaceans on it.

d'Oracle

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

What don't you understand? They're really simple to follow, we have a good few people following them offsite as far away as Vegas (baby).

Generally when I don't understand something I ask questions about it rather than casting crustaceans on it.

I wasn't casting anything about it.
Just pointing out the underlying flaw in Brians point.
Which is that the Iprograms wouldn't really be easy to follow in the way that CF or anything like that are.

Wasn't a criticism at all.

Barry.Oglesby

d'Oracle wrote: »

I wasn't casting anything about it.
Just pointing out the underlying flaw in Brians point.
Which is that the Iprograms wouldn't really be easy to follow in the way that CF or anything like that are.

Wasn't a criticism at all.

Okay cos I did this.
d'Oracle
Now you're back to this
d'Oracle
But seriously, they're simple when you understand some of the basic annotation. The difference is the methodology and the way we want people to carry stuff out. The programmes are like a recipe, you still need to be able to cook to folow them

Chet Zar

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

Okay cos I did this.
d'Oracle
Now you're back to this
d'Oracle
But seriously, they're simple when you understand some of the basic annotation. The difference is the methodology and the way we want people to carry stuff out. The programmes are like a recipe, you still need to be able to cook to folow them

Whatever. Listen where the fook is Will gone - his blog posts have gone way by the wayside.

Good to see you keep em coming at least

Barry.Oglesby

Chet Zar wrote: »

Whatever. Listen where the fook is Will gone - his blog posts have gone way by the wayside.

Good to see you keep em coming at least

When I was killing Roper he got caught in the crossfire. RIP.

He's in Australasia somewhere on his holliers. Back next week and probably blogging too. He's just busier than me so he has less time to blog. I work the nice quiet mornings

Chet Zar

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

When I was killing Roper he got caught in the crossfire. RIP.

He's in Australasia somewhere on his holliers. Back next week and probably blogging too. He's just busier than me so he has less time to blog. I work the nice quiet mornings

Heheh! Figured he was away somewhere alright.