MMA for the Money

John Ferguson

Hi Guys this is a copy of a thread posted over on fight.ie

i thought i should post it here and get your views because more of you use this forum

"MMA For the Money

by sweenytodd » Sun Jan 31, 2010 3:04 am
I can see a growing trend in Irish MMA that i dont like.
The Money men are moving in. Shows are starting to pop up that are funded and ran buy business men.
Guys that have never been a apart of a club and never done a day of training in there lives. But they put a show on to make an Irish Champion.
These people are only in the game for the money. This is not good. Ive never made money through MMA in ireland and ive never set out to.
I love Irish MMA. Its been the best thing ive been involved in in my life! I hate to see it raped like this.
Just my opinion."


John
www.cagecontender.net

mark.leonard

What's your take on it John?

John Ferguson

mark.leonard wrote: »

What's your take on it John?

Well I think I know who it is aimed at!!!:)

Barry.Oglesby

I see where Marty is coming from, but I'm fairly sure the clubs who run shows do it for money too

mark.leonard

That Barry.Oglesby id has to be an imposter, the real Barry posts only as Roper.
Ignore him everybody.

Barry.Oglesby

I killed Roper last night. He is dead. Long live me.

mark.leonard

Roper you crack me up, I mean Barry.

fightie wrote: »

Well I think I know who it is aimed at!!!:)

You might be right there I think. I can see where the OP is coming from, and I agree with Barry that all promoters are ultimately trying to make a few quid, so I find myself snarled on the fence for this one.

I guess the OP might say that other promoters use their events to further their own fighters.
Of course non club promoters might say are fighters not just as furthered by their events, regardless of the promoter not having a vested interest in one fighter over another.

Back on the fence I sit.

Barry.Oglesby

um, this actually is me you know.

Anyway, you stay on the fence there Mark, right beside me. Money, as they say, makes the world go around, and without money involved, believe me, it's really not worth doing. So if you're getting involved just for profit I think 2 things need to happen:
1) prepare yourself for a dissappointment
2) engage with the clubs

mmaireland.com

I'm with you guys. I'd say most promoters are in it, at least in part, for the money. Love of the sport is often why a bunch of us go full time as coaches in our gyms. But, running a show is a head-ache and a half. At the very least, people are looking to promote their own gym via their shows (which in turn leads to profit). More power to them I say.

As for people getting into it "just for the money". Again, why not? Provided the match making is sound and the safety of fighters is taken care off - it's all good. If someone is in it just for the money they may bring a sense of "invest and progress" to the sport. Potentially more money and recognition for the fighters involved.

In some ways, I'd like to see more independant shows (ie. those that are not associated to a particular gym). To get more independants involved there has to be something in it for them.

John Ferguson

fightie wrote: »

I can see a growing trend in Irish MMA that i dont like.
The Money men are moving in. Shows are starting to pop up that are funded and ran buy business men.
Guys that have never been a apart of a club and never done a day of training in there lives. But they put a show on to make an Irish Champion.

I Think its safe to say that this is a personal attack on me and my promotion. But if this is your genuine point of view and not a drunken 03:04 on a saturday night rant then thanks for sharing it!!

fightie wrote: »

These people are only in the game for the money. This is not good..

Like all businesses YES we do it for a profit. But its worth noting its not just profit for us.

If we can produce better productions and publicity this should bring more of the general public out of their houses to watch Irish MMA shows (a very high percentage of tickets sales still come from friends and family of the fighters).

These new followers of the sport will tell their friends and so the cycle continues.

More ticket sales will lead to better purses for pro fighters and the publicity and positive spin that professional promoters can generate will help to drive new members into the clubs at the grass roots!!

Irish MMA is in a very strong place right now (due in no small part to years of hard graft by many of you guys on here) and with us all pushing in the same direction has years of serious growth ahead of it

fightie wrote: »

I hate to see it raped like this.

I really fail to see how investing thousands of pounds and to many hours to count can be seen as raping!!!

John
www.cagecontender.net

rovert

Bit funny to see this thread and the Too many shows? thread more or less side by side. Isnt the eventual result of too many shows a "corrective" consolidation favouring the most successful promoter/promotions?

Barry.Oglesby

To quote Gordon Gecko, "greed is good".

juijitsu black

Ive been involved with and help run a few shows MMA and other, and I can say that the clubs runnin shows are making a minimum off 4 grand profit per show and even more if the get a cut off the bar!! And even more again if they dont pay C class fighters(which is a discrace). So are possably coming away with 5500 Pounds or 6000euro in their pocket.:eek::eek:

mark.leonard

juijitsu black wrote: »

Ive been involved with and help run a few shows MMA and other, and I can say that the clubs runnin shows are making a minimum off 4 grand profit per show and even more if the get a cut off the bar!! And even more again if they dont pay C class fighters(which is a discrace). So are possably coming away with 5500 Pounds or 6000euro in their pocket.:eek::eek:

with the greatest respect, but that sounds like bunkum to me.
I have run a few shows in the past and its very very hard to make them even turn a profit. The shows you are talking about must have a lot of stars in alignment to make that happen - cheap venue, fighters who will fight for little money, cache of local fighters to attract spectators.
More power to anyone who can clear that kind of cash but I would very strongly assert that it is the exception

cowzerp

juijitsu black wrote: »

Ive been involved with and help run a few shows MMA and other, and I can say that the clubs runnin shows are making a minimum off 4 grand profit per show and even more if the get a cut off the bar!! And even more again if they dont pay C class fighters(which is a discrace). So are possably coming away with 5500 Pounds or 6000euro in their pocket.:eek::eek:

No way this is right, and that even with a full house-the expenses in running these shows is ridiculis with security, rent, fighters, medics, doctors dj, mc, ring girls, refs and insurance plus more expenses than that aswell, The bar makes more than my promotion and i do all the work,

On the C class fighters getting payed subject, there amateurs and amateurs should not be paid, the same lads would pay to be in the mma league so why should they be paid on a show, they get ticket sales off most shows if they want to earn money anyway so that is payment of sorts, Lads should be happy that there given the opportunity to fight and make all there training worth while, most do it for fun so are delighted to get a fight at all..

ps, maybe on the shows your involved in where your making 5 to 6k then you can afford to pay amateurs, so fire away.

If its offered take it but to expect to be paid as an amateur is greedy and does not make sense, the bjj revolution lads all went to europe to fight bjj and paid there own way, hotels, food etc,, why? because they want to test out there skills and they love it, maybe some amateurs are in it for the wrong reasons.

Clive

C class fighters are only amateur if you're not paying them, they traditionally have always been considered semi-pro.

If someone else is selling tickets for people to see you get punched in the face, they should at least pay you a nominal amount as a mark of respect. Giving people a fiver off each ticket they sell is not the same either.

Bringing the MMA league and BJJ into it makes no sense either as they're completely different. I could name a dozen people off the top of my head who'd pay to fight A class rules if they had to, but it doesn't mean it's right.

There are many other things that could be cut before not paying fighters something at least.

Jason McCabe

I don't particularly like the trend of C class fighters becoming glorified ticket sellers

Its the promoters job to sell tickets not the fighters. If they want some for their family all well and good.

cowzerp

Clive wrote: »

C class fighters are only amateur if you're not paying them, they traditionally have always been considered semi-pro.
.

Semi pro is a bs term to seperate it from the league and sounds better for promoting a show, its Amateur and thats a fact, A and B are pro and after that its Amateur only with various rule edits.

Clive wrote: »

Bringing the MMA league and BJJ into it makes no sense either as they're completely different. I could name a dozen people off the top of my head who'd pay to fight A class rules if they had to, but it doesn't mean it's right

The point is wheter your doing tiddlywinks or boxing, mma etc, when your an amateur your doing it to learn and as a hobby so should be glad your getting the chance to do your hobby free of charge, no body makes these people fight so they can always just say no or i wont fight for free,
my reply would be simple-fight pro then.

Jason McCabe wrote: »

I don't particularly like the trend of C class fighters becoming glorified ticket sellers

Its the promoters job to sell tickets not the fighters. If they want some for their family all well and good.

They dont have too, its an option and they can if they choose too-it would be just as easy to give them to a shop and let them take 5 euro a ticket instead, then the shop owner is the earner where a lad might be happy to make a few quid to buy pints after his fight.

Nobody has to sell tickets and they do be only to family and friends anyway.

Tim_Murphy

cowzerp wrote: »

Semi pro is a bs term to seperate it from the league and sounds better for promoting a show, its Amateur and thats a fact,

Why do you think it is a 'fact'? Back before we had the terms A B and C class (maybe before you time Paul?) the terms semi-pro and pro were commonly used.

cowzerp wrote: »

A and B are pro and after that its Amateur only with various rule edits.

By that logic A class is only semi-pro 'with various rule edits'.

In a sport where people are normally paid between 50 and a few hundred euro to compete then the differences between amateur and professional are largely arbitrary.

Clive wrote: »

If someone else is selling tickets for people to see you get punched in the face, they should at least pay you a nominal amount as a mark of respect.

Exactly

cowzerp

Tim_Murphy wrote: »

Why do you think it is a 'fact'? Back before we had the terms A B and C class (maybe before you time Paul?) the terms semi-pro and pro were commonly used.

Well it was not before my time Tim, it was a term used in my time and still used now-but the term is false and just a way of seperating types of amateur rules from the League. in reality its a stupid term that confuses people.

Tim_Murphy wrote: »

By that logic A class is only semi-pro 'with various rule edits'.

In a sport where people are normally paid between 50 and a few hundred euro to compete then the differences between amateur and professional are largely arbitrary.

Exactly

Pro means your paid, Amateur means your not-A and B class are paid, there records go down as pro, C class dont get paid and there record goes down as Amateur,

Most Pro's in Ireland are amateur in the sense they dont make a living but they fight Pro rules and get paid on the day of there fights.


I'd reccommend any fighters who dont want to sell tickets to there family and friends to just fight and let there family go looking for tickets themselves, its important to keep classes as there meant to be, A and B pro and below that Amateur imo.

Barry.Oglesby

I think it's up to a promoter to run his/her business the way he/she wants to run it. Cowzer is a he/she...

Put simply, if you don't like the ticket sales arrangements for a show, then don't go or fight on it. If you do, then do. Pretty much any distinction we draw between pro and amateur is going to be entirely arbitrary, it just so happens that C is the arbitrary line we've drawn. I don't think it's any coincidence that somehow cards seem to be full of those less expensive fighters, but as someone who attempted to put on a modest card of just 6 pro fights 2 months ago and ended up with 2, I can tell you that professional fighters do not exist the way you think they do and as such C class fighters have to prop up shows. Is that a good thing? No. Is there too many shows and not enough fighters? Yes. Do people just want to make money? Yes. Is there anything wrong with that? No. Will people continue to pay for amateur shows after the "buzz" has gone? No. Does the question/answer format of this post stop here? Yes.

Right now MMA is the hottest show in town and everyone wants a piece of the action and to be the biggest onion in the sack (you heard that here first), in 2 years time, people will have tired of cobbling together cards and trying to make joe bloggs versus john doe look like fight of the century, I know I have already. Hopefully we'll be left with 3 or 4 high quality shows with pro only cards and 3 or 4 amateur only shows with amateur only fighters.

cowzerp

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

I think it's up to a promoter to run his/her business the way he/she wants to run it. Cowzer is a he/she...

Put simply, if you don't like the ticket sales arrangements for a show, then don't go or fight on it. If you do, then do. Pretty much any distinction we draw between pro and amateur is going to be entirely arbitrary, it just so happens that C is the arbitrary line we've drawn. I don't think it's any coincidence that somehow cards seem to be full of those less expensive fighters, but as someone who attempted to put on a modest card of just 6 pro fights 2 months ago and ended up with 2, I can tell you that professional fighters do not exist the way you think they do and as such C class fighters have to prop up shows. Is that a good thing? No. Is there too many shows and not enough fighters? Yes. Do people just want to make money? Yes. Is there anything wrong with that? No. Will people continue to pay for amateur shows after the "buzz" has gone? No. Does the question/answer format of this post stop here? Yes.

Right now MMA is the hottest show in town and everyone wants a piece of the action and to be the biggest onion in the sack (you heard that here first), in 2 years time, people will have tired of cobbling together cards and trying to make joe bloggs versus john doe look like fight of the century, I know I have already. Hopefully we'll be left with 3 or 4 high quality shows with pro only cards and 3 or 4 amateur only shows with amateur only fighters.

Great post Barry, i tried to have 5 pro fights on mine and ended up with 2, this time i have none yet and want about 3 if possible, my show is a local show and will remain mainly C class till my club has more A or B class fighters, the point of my show is to gain experience for my fighters and others and to promote the club in the local area which it does, if money is made, great, that might get us a months rent paid, but for the work i put into running these shows the reward is small, Barry knows this, Mark does, as does Andy or John who do or have run local shows.

Tim_Murphy

Well it was not before my time Tim, it was a term used in my time and still used now-but the term is false and just a way of seperating types of amateur rules from the League. in reality its a stupid term that confuses people.

Who is confused?
How is the term false? Because some promoters don't give them any money? Plenty of others do. I know Mark Leonard and others always give the C class fighters at least a nominal fee. IMO that is just good manners. Promoters do on occasion make a few euro on a show (shock horror! ) and it only right that the people providing the entertainment get something. Like I said, it's just good manners as far as I can concerned.

Anyway sites such as MMAUniverse and FCFighter (and I'm sure plenty others) do record fights as been either pro or semi-pro so I don't know where you got the idea that the term is 'false'.

Pro means your paid, Amateur means your not-A and B class are paid, there records go down as pro, C class dont get paid and there record goes down as Amateur,

Right, so they don't get paid because they are amateur and because they are amateur they don't get paid. Nice logic there.

Barry.Oglesby

There is a small but significant factor not yet mentioned.

The notion of "amateurism" is a tricky one. If you agree to pay someone to do something for you, be it painting your house or fighting on your show, you have entered a verbal and somewhat binding contract with them. How this pertains to amateurism is the increased pressure upon amateur fighters to partake in an event. Amateurism is voluntary, if you pay someone it ceases to be voluntary. There is something inherently wrong with an amateur fighting for money.

That's my two ethical cents. I know the term ethics is a rare one on this board.

Anakin.S

Jason McCabe wrote: »

I don't particularly like the trend of C class fighters becoming glorified ticket sellers

Its the promoters job to sell tickets not the fighters. If they want some for their family all well and good.

It really all depends upon how much of the ticket sale goes to the fighter.

If a fighter can get a couple of euro per ticket as a bonus to their purse then why not?

Jason McCabe

I just think its a fighters job to fight and train to fight

cowzerp

Tim_Murphy wrote: »

Right, so they don't get paid because they are amateur and because they are amateur they don't get paid. Nice logic there.

Tim i'm glad your a very witty bloke!

The logic is sound and your wording it funny anyway, and the reasons of insurance strenghten why it should stay that way, Amateurs in all sports dont get paid, so why should MMA be different, the fighters have a choice to fight pro if money is there reason for doing it, If a lad gets 20 of his friends and family to go and gets 100 euro commision he is not paid so it skips the legal messing about with payments etc...

Also apart from local fighters or lads selling tickets to familys there is no fighters, and especially no C class fighters who people turn up to see specially, i might change my opinion on this subject if promoters where making a killing while not paying out for pro fighters deliberatly or just taking advantage but in my opinion and from experience most C class fighters are grateful of the chance to fight in a safe controlled enviroment.

mark.leonard

markfightie wrote: »

Everyone is forgetting about the olde problem of insuring amateur fighters, once you pay a fighter, he is no longer classed as amateur and as such not covered by his club insurance to fight.

Not sure how it is up north but in the south it is not possible to insure someone to fight in a full contact event in a ring or cage. Fighters can take out their own insurance, which covers them relatively cheaply, but insuring them as a group?
When I started TW I was laughed out of a few insurance agencies with that one.

Barry.Oglesby

I've heard that "invalidated insurance" thing before and I'm not sure it makes sense. If I am insured under my policy I am insured regardless of whether I get paid or not. I can't speak for other policies, but ours makes no reference to money and I'm fairly sure pretty much everyone has the same policy as me.

Sid_Justice

Not sure if C-class fighters should be paid but should certainly be given 'expenses'.

mmaireland.com

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

I've heard that "invalidated insurance" thing before and I'm not sure it makes sense. If I am insured under my policy I am insured regardless of whether I get paid or not. I can't speak for other policies, but ours makes no reference to money and I'm fairly sure pretty much everyone has the same policy as me.

Hey Barry. Most "club level" insurance that covers members to train and participate in a martial art training programme or event, are provide on the basis of "amateur only". There's usually a very specific clause that excludes coverage in the event of a purse for participation. Insurance companies, therefore, consider the line between pro and am to be payment of a purse.

You run a show too, so maybe your policy works differently. But, I went through a whole host of insurers and didn't find a single club level insurance that covers participation in an event where a purse is paid.

Barry.Oglesby

mmaireland.com wrote: »

Hey Barry. Most "club level" insurance that covers members to train and participate in a martial art training programme or event, are provide on the basis of "amateur only". There's usually a very specific clause that excludes coverage in the event of a purse for participation. Insurance companies, therefore, consider the line between pro and am to be payment of a purse.

You run a show too, so maybe your policy works differently. But, I went through a whole host of insurers and didn't find a single club level insurance that covers participation in an event where a purse is paid.

I'm with ABC (I'd say most are) and I just had a goo over the policy now and can't find that. If you want to pm me with the details if you don't want to discuss insurance in the open forum I'd be very interested. Hopefully I don't have to change insurers!

mmaireland.com

I'm with the same crowd mate (one of the few that will insure MMA at all! ). They are very specific about it. Give Pauline a shout mate and she'll clarify it for you. It may not be mentioned on the cover note but it's certainly a condition of the master policy. Unless, of course, it's changed and you've a different version. Worth checking with them mate. Not worth being caught out and she was very specific, "absolutely no purse of any kind, not even a gift voucher".

Barry.Oglesby

It seems I have some checking to do.

Personally I think if you don't have some sort of personal private med insurance in this country and in our sport then you're taking your chances.

tomagetti

no private insurance policy will cover you for any form of competative sport never mind mma. If your playing GAA soccer rugby cycling in any for of competition then your insurance wont cover you for injury. There is a place in blackrock (co.dub) that are supposed to be very good for club insurance but i cant remeber there name sorry!

Barry.Oglesby

tomagetti wrote: »

no private insurance policy will cover you for any form of competative sport never mind mma. If your playing GAA soccer rugby cycling in any for of competition then your insurance wont cover you for injury. There is a place in blackrock (co.dub) that are supposed to be very good for club insurance but i cant remeber there name sorry!

Nope, they all cover you for your hospital treatment no matter what the cause. Otherwise what good would they be to anyone. "Sorry, you're not insured because your injury wasn't sustained on a Wednesday, while you were sitting on the couch when Countdown was on".

mmaireland.com

I've been told the same thing by VHI. Participation in sports training is considered "acceptable" but participation in competition is not.

I've been burned before for assuming that insurance and legal issues in Ireland are going to be the same as the UK and other parts of Europe. So, I'll not head clumsily down that road. It's worth saying though, that no health policy in the UK or Germany would allow for professional sports or "extreme sports" participation.

One of our guys in the gym even had his insurance cancelled by the provider (here in Ireland) when they got wind that he was "involved in Mixed Martial Arts". They got the info from a small GP claim.

Barry.Oglesby

Hmmm. This is complex, I've just been talking to a man on this board who is very much in the know.

One of our lads had insurance that covered him to kitesurf, absail and do all sorts of other nonsense....

mmaireland.com

That's cool. If you do find someone that covers all (even for an individual) any chance you could let us all know? If all but given up on looking!

Barry.Oglesby

Whatever I find out I'll post up here, assuming I find anything.

mmaireland.com

Cheers Dude.

eoghan.geraghty

An individual can definitely get personal accident insurance to cover him/her for any time out of work, hospital expenses etc no matter what the cause.
I have a few friends who had this cover and received payments for injuries received while racing motorbikes for example.
I don't think this cover would be available for a group of people at a given event however.

Raze_them_all

eoghan.geraghty wrote: »

An individual can definitely get personal accident insurance to cover him/her for any time out of work, hospital expenses etc no matter what the cause.
I have a few friends who had this cover and received payments for injuries received while racing motorbikes for example.
I don't think this cover would be available for a group of people at a given event however.

They don't insure extreme sports which mma is considered. Anyone that is ionsured for them are paying alot more for them

Sid_Justice

What's the story with standard VHI/Bupa private health insurance? Do they cover martial arts in general? Sports? Would BJJ/amateur mma not be included?

I would have assumed it would be best practice for anyone that's a regular competitor to have their own private health insurance (either their own explicit policy or one under their parents). Perhaps that is naive of me to think so. But now i'm not certain if my VHI covers me if I break my neck in "MMA".

tomagetti

you can get cover for competing in mma or any other form of competitive sports. I work for an insurance broker and have spent a good part of the day looking into this. We previously thought that you weren't but have spoke to managers in some of the top insurance companys and they have ok'd it. You are covered for hazardous sports within ireland but are not covered outside of ireland including the north. Sorry but anyone north of the border im not sure how you can go about getting cover. If any one is interested in getting a quote pm me and i will pass your details on to the health insurance dept in my company. Hope this clears things up for people

mmaireland.com

tomagetti wrote: »

You are covered for hazardous sports within ireland but are not covered outside of ireland including the north.

Does this refer to professional participation (ie. where are purse/payment is involved)?

Club level insurance already allows for amateur participation (ie. where no purse/payment changes hands) - typically worldwide.

Tim_Murphy

mmaireland.com wrote: »

Does this refer to professional participation (ie. where are purse/payment is involved)?

Club level insurance already allows for amateur participation (ie. where no purse/payment changes hands) - typically worldwide.

Another question would be how can 'professional' participation be proven if you haven't signed a contract and have been paid with an envelope of cash?

Tim_Murphy

cowzerp wrote: »

Tim i'm glad your a very witty bloke!

The logic is sound and your wording it funny anyway...

Hahaha You really think that logic is sound? :eek:

cowzerp wrote: »

Amateurs in all sports dont get paid, so why should MMA be different...

You really don't seem to get the fact that your logic is completely circular. You have given no reason why you have defined C class as amateur as opposed to semi-pro (which traditionally it has been called).

cowzerp wrote: »

i might change my opinion on this subject if promoters where making a killing while not paying out for pro fighters deliberatly or just taking advantage but in my opinion and from experience most C class fighters are grateful of the chance to fight in a safe controlled enviroment.

Like Clive said, there are plenty of A class fighters who would fight for free, that doesn't make it right. I fought two pro fights for nothing back when I started fighting MMA.

cowzerp

Tim_Murphy wrote: »

Hahaha You really think that logic is sound? :eek:

You really don't seem to get the fact that your logic is completely circular. You have given no reason why you have defined C class as amateur as opposed to semi-pro (which traditionally it has been called)..

Tim your a reasonably bright lad! so on that note, Pro's are paid and amateurs are not, thats the real reason that seperates Pro and Amateur in all walks of life, So paying an amateur makes them pro, therefore there not fighting amateur even though there fighting Amateur Rules which C class are,

The term semi pro is irrelevant and whatever its called its amateur, or at least it is on my show the EFR show and on many others too, we'll agree to disagree as you clearly dont see C class as amateur and i do. or if you do then i dont get your whole argument.

Tim_Murphy

cowzerp wrote: »

Tim your a reasonably bright lad!

I'm well aware of that Paul, you don't need to keep telling me.

cowzerp wrote: »

The term semi pro is irrelevant and whatever its called its amateur, or at least it is on my show the EFR show and on many others too

OK you we agree that it's amateur, except when its not. Progress!

Barry.Oglesby

Raze_them_all wrote: »

They don't insure extreme sports which mma is considered. Anyone that is ionsured for them are paying alot more for them

I'm not talking about personal accident, which may have certain payouts for loss of earnings/mobility etc. I'm referring to the nuts and bolts medical care which your private insurance will pay out for no matter what the cause (thanks tomagetti). For example I'll deal with the being out of work bit after I get my jaw rewired thanks very much or the like. To give you an example if you fell while climbing and required surgery, your VHI/BUPA/Aviva should pay out, but your personal accident might not as you were doing something out of their bailwick.

That's my understanding, but then I think of insurance in the same way as I think of wine. I like to drink it, but I don't understand when people talk about it.