Analog summing - any thoughts ?

i57dwun4yb1pt8

I have been hearing that banging out grouped channells ( such as drum, guitars , bass ) etc out to an analog mixer ( even a cheap one )
and maybe doing some eqing etc on the desk

and recording the main out back into the daw as the master is a better sounding result than in the DAW summing / render .

anyone have any thoughts on this ?

ogy

unless its a very good summing box/mixer like an ssl/neve/etc its not gonna be better than ITB summing. however it might sound interesting/different for an effect, maybe not on the whole mix, just parts of it. similarly its fun to run some tracks out to an old cheap four-track for a bit of tape noise.

studiorat

I'm still out on the difference. I've tried a couple of boxes and some are better than others, more do do with the colour of the sound from the box than from any analog vs digital summing pov. If you are summing any of the drum channels in the box before going into a mixer I don't see the point.
I am a fan of analog summing though, just from a work flow point of view.

Whether just running the finished mix through some iron would have the same effect it's hard to know, I kind of suspect it would.

trackmixstudio

I insert my Phoenix DRS-Q4 on the mix bus to get a bit of glue and to access its fabulous eq.
Works wonders.
I am using apogee converters but lesser converters and a cheap mixer will damage your sound more than anything.

madtheory

Yes, it's not the summing that gives the sound, it's the make up gain after the summing. So it follows that inserting anything on your master outs will do the trick. Especially if it has transformers in it.

Seziertisch

The big advantage I would see to analogue summing would be if you had (quite) a bit of outboard that you wanted to integrate.

i57dwun4yb1pt8

so ,

forgetting about the mixer

would it be worth playing the overall mix, out from the interface to the pacifica stereo mic preamp ( in to the di of each chanel - the preamp is all transformer ) )

and recording the output from the pre as the final mix to a stereo track in the DAW ?

ogy

only one way to find out!:)

madtheory

Seziertisch wrote: »

The big advantage I would see to analogue summing would be if you had (quite) a bit of outboard that you wanted to integrate.

IMO it's better to print that ITB.

trackmixstudio

DaDumTish wrote: »

so ,

forgetting about the mixer

would it be worth playing the overall mix, out from the interface to the pacifica stereo mic preamp ( in to the di of each chanel - the preamp is all transformer ) )

and recording the output from the pre as the final mix to a stereo track in the DAW ?

Should work well provided you have good digital converters.
Also instead of recording it back in, put an I/O plugin on the master bus then bounce in real time.

If I get a chance over the next few days I will post a with and without the DRS (flat eq) inserted audio files to show the difference

Joe26

dudes,

I've recently been getting more serious about digital recording but have hit a wall when it comes to summing. Do any of you guys have any insight into digital vs. analog summing and the advantages/disadvantages of each? I'm assuming analog gives you a warmer and some may say "better" sound but I don't really understand why I guess. I've heard some people say it doesn't matter and some say they prefer analog...so any input would be sweet. Thanks dudes. :cool:

Seziertisch

Joe26 wrote: »

dudes,

I've recently been getting more serious about digital recording but have hit a wall when it comes to summing. Do any of you guys have any insight into digital vs. analog summing and the advantages/disadvantages of each? I'm assuming analog gives you a warmer and some may say "better" sound but I don't really understand why I guess. I've heard some people say it doesn't matter and some say they prefer analog...so any input would be sweet. Thanks dudes. :cool:

Try and demo the gear yourself. See what it does or doesn't do for you, and see if it's worth it. The pros and cons have been done to death on other forums, at least. Scout around and see what you can find.

madtheory

Joe26 wrote: »

dudes,

I've recently been getting more serious about digital recording but have hit a wall when it comes to summing. Do any of you guys have any insight into digital vs. analog summing and the advantages/disadvantages of each? I'm assuming analog gives you a warmer and some may say "better" sound but I don't really understand why I guess. I've heard some people say it doesn't matter and some say they prefer analog...so any input would be sweet. Thanks dudes. :cool:

Troll alert.

PaulBrewer

Joe26 wrote: »

dudes,

I've recently been getting more serious about digital recording but have hit a wall when it comes to summing. Do any of you guys have any insight into digital vs. analog summing and the advantages/disadvantages of each? I'm assuming analog gives you a warmer and some may say "better" sound but I don't really understand why I guess. I've heard some people say it doesn't matter and some say they prefer analog...so any input would be sweet. Thanks dudes. :cool:

We did tests before comparing a mix out of Apogee DA16x through PMC AMLs and PMC TB2SAs and NS 10s with 3 other pro engineers in two different studios using pro tools.

We used the Neve 8816 , Audient Sumo and SSL X-Rack ( all summed out as 8 pairs)

We all agreed the results in both studios namely -
1. SSL, 2. Audient, 3. Neve, 4. ITB.

The difference between ITB and OTB were unsubtle in our opinions.

Notable too was the consensus , we all agreed on the order.

As StudioRat says, try it - that's the only way for you to know. I believe it's worth exploring.

i57dwun4yb1pt8

can some one juts explain what this means , im a bit confused

Also instead of recording it back in, put an I/O plugin on the master bus then bounce in real time

PaulBrewer

Outputting tracks individually or as grouped pairs from an interface and summing (adding them together) in the analogue domain.

The mix can then be recorded back into a Daw or whatever else one might like to use.

madtheory

Yes, there is a difference. But it's not the summing that does it. It's the make up gain that follows. All those summing boxes are just resistor networks in a nice case. So you'll get the same gluing effect with any analogue box, it will be especially noticeable if it has transformers in it, and a good clean gain stage.

I'll bet my Amek BC2 that Paul's test above would have the same result if just two channels of those boxes was inserted on the main outs.

Outboard summing was a solution to a problem that went away about six years ago, when it was possible to have a mixer in Pro Tools that did not dither after summing.

Good article in this month's sound on sound on "Analogue Warmth". Author is an electronics engineer, ex BBC trainer and classical music recordist. Hugh Robjohns.

Robin Ball

Analogue Summing boxes are all very well.... I have one (8816) If you like to use external comps then it's an absolute charm, you get the insert but not the footprint of a massive desk..... However, I'll bet that none of you're clients are going to hear the difference that it makes.

Maybe if you gave them the same mix through the Summing box and ITB they might notice a difference but if you just give them a great ITB mix they'll be happy regardless!

It's all very well us debating the pros and cons of the box, what I have realized is that the client doesn't care at all.....

madtheory

Haha! That's a good point. There are some that can hear these subtleties, but you're right, sometimes we are anal.

PS you can insert analogue outboard without a desk or a summing box, as long as there is enough i/o on your ADA box.

Robin Ball

madtheory wrote: »

Haha! That's a good point. There are some that can hear these subtleties, but you're right, sometimes we are anal.

PS you can insert analogue outboard without a desk or a summing box, as long as there is enough i/o on your ADA box.

and you know your latency 'round time'

Seziertisch

madtheory wrote: »

Haha! That's a good point. There are some that can hear these subtleties, but you're right, sometimes we are anal.

PS you can insert analogue outboard without a desk or a summing box, as long as there is enough i/o on your ADA box.

The way I see it, its a game of percentages. Improving/adding any piece of gear in/to the signal chain generally won't make a day or night difference (unless it is a mic, and even then that might just be a question of taste). These percentages add up, and you take it far enough and all of a sudden the difference is no longer so slight and no longer something that the band or your listeners won't notice.

trackmixstudio

Robin Ball wrote: »

and you know your latency 'round time'

Logic "pings" when you use an external insert to find latency then automatically compensates. I'm sure most good DAWs do this.

Joe26

Seziertisch wrote: »

Try and demo the gear yourself. See what it does or doesn't do for you, and see if it's worth it. The pros and cons have been done to death on other forums, at least. Scout around and see what you can find.

Yeah I found a ton of forums/opinions on this already so I'm not trying to stir up another debate...but can someone explain how analog "eases the work flow"....because many ppl say that is why they stick with OTB analog summing...

PaulBrewer

Joe26 wrote: »

Yeah I found a ton of forums/opinions on this already so I'm not trying to stir up another debate...but can someone explain how analog "eases the work flow"....because many ppl say that is why they stick with OTB analog summing...

Sounds like a load of cock to me !


I do think that the 'console' way, either as analogue, digital, hybrid or controller is a much easier way to work than a mouse.

Unless that's what's meant ?

madtheory

It was originally only people who are used to working that way who say that. Now, you must say it if you want to appear "cool" on geartwitz.

Just pick the tools that work best for you.

Seziertisch

I can see the advantage of being able to work hands on, physically moving a knob as opposed to pushing with a mouse.

I can also see the advantage of restricting the number of tracks that someone might have access to at the time of mixing. I know a lot of home recordists/DAW users that just go overboard with the number of tracks they use, when, in my opinion, a lot of the time the problem is that they haven't managed to get the basics sounding big enough and just end up filling the spaces with crap. Although a summing mixer isn't necessarily the best fix for this, it does force people to make choices when it comes to bussing etc. That said, for certain more experimental/adventurous styles, higher track counts would be a blessing.

Otherwise, the main advantage I would see to a summing mixer would be for summing while recording as opposed to while mixing.

dav nagle

Robin Ball wrote: »

ut if you just give them a great ITB mix they'll be happy regardless!

It's all very well us debating the pros and cons of the box, what I have realized is that the client doesn't care at all.....

Depends on the experience of the client I guess in regards to 'warmth', but a very interesting point nevertheless. Definitely true to say that many people couldn't care as long as the 'tune' is good. Most regular music listeners listen to music on terrible systems right across the board anyways. Even most people who listen to music listen to it on headphones or budget sound systems. So much 'quality warmth' doesn't mean much to Joe Bloggs walking down the street with his tin can skull crusher headphones. The client who use 'only analog' believe they have sound integrity (which they kinda do lol) but as an example was shown on the Digi-design website, and possibly Waves website too, even the pro's cant guess whats what when it comes down to side by side comparison.

Look at Paul Whites article on Liquidmix. His review was in favor of the little box but at the same time if it was that close to the real thing everyone would have one. I am sure most people would rather mix completely in the box if the sound was exactly the same as out of the box. Out of the box for the win but it is so expensive. I am buying an 1176 in April (Brewer I am there for the taking).

Many of us into audio recording really do care and lust sweet gear and getting a nice sound fix which is great but Joe Bloggs just couldn't give a sh£te.

fitz

Off topic, but:

dav nagle wrote: »

I am buying an 1176 in April (Brewer I am there for the taking).

http://www.igsaudio.pl/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=20



The price? €890

dav nagle

fitz wrote: »

Off topic, but:



http://www.igsaudio.pl/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=20



The price? €890

Nice on Fitz! I'll check it out!

fitz

They also do a 16 input summing box for €1190.

My debut record was mixed using the Sumo.
I could certainly hear a difference between a mix of one of the songs done before the mix engineer got the Sumo and the same song done with the Sumo. Not necessarily that it technically does summing any better than a DAW, I think it's more the benefit of analogue circuitry and the glue factor a little harmonic distortion can bring...I'd agree with madtheory about the transformers and their impact.

An SSL mix bus compressor (or a clone of one!) strapped onto the two bus using an I/O plugin as Trackmix describes would probably give a project studio person a significant difference in their mixes.

dav nagle

fitz wrote: »

They also do a 16 input summing box for €1190.

My debut record was mixed using the Sumo.
I could certainly hear a difference between a mix of one of the songs done before the mix engineer got the Sumo and the same song done with the Sumo. Not necessarily that it technically does summing any better than a DAW, I think it's more the benefit of analogue circuitry and the glue factor a little harmonic distortion can bring...I'd agree with madtheory about the transformers and their impact.

An SSL mix bus compressor (or a clone of one!) strapped onto the two bus using an I/O plugin as Trackmix describes would probably give a project studio person a significant difference in their mixes.

http://www.dv247.com/studio-equipment/ssl-xlogic-xrack-stereo-bus-compressor-module--46540

Well if it does what is says on the tin then that could be a well spent €1500 I need some glue and punch factor the ITB is too cold. Throw on one of these on a vocal or acoustic guitar http://www.uaudio.com/products/hardware/la3a/index.html for a further €1500 and I may start to hear some improvements all round.

fitz

Again, clones out there for half the price.
Build one yourself using the Gyraf specs, IGS do one for €790, and Chameleon Labs do one for a similar price.

Robin Ball

I've got an 1176 for sale if you're interested!!

madtheory

dav nagle wrote: »

I need some glue and punch factor the ITB is too cold.

Have you tried Cranesong tape sim plugins? Or Digidesign tape? Worth a go I think. Massey Tape head is great too.

fitz

+1 on Massey Tape Head

dav nagle

Robin Ball: I have to wait until April (will money) but keep me in mind please

Fitz, Madtheory:

I just downloaded the tape head from Massey see how it goes

Thanks

madtheory

Massey tape head tip: set its gain to unity, keep it on the "normal" setting, and drive it with an eq plugin ahead of it.

dav nagle

madtheory wrote: »

Massey tape head tip: set its gain to unity, keep it on the "normal" setting, and drive it with an eq plugin ahead of it.

Nice

IGS looks like incredible value




1176 = €690
EQP1 = €1090
S-Type = €790

So before you even cut a deal you are looking at €2570, you would barely get a real 1176 for that! but just think about what a difference these three tools if used correctly could make to a mix. 2,600 is reasonable for that lot. Fitz your album sounds extremely clean and smooth so I would take confidence in your opinion, thank you. I need analog compression for my vocals while tracking and I also need a stereo EQ and a mix bus compressor to beef up my overall mix (pre) mastering stage.

PaulBrewer

fitz wrote: »

Off topic, but:



http://www.igsaudio.pl/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=20



The price? €890

Has anyone heard these ? I was thinking about building a 1176 Clone to see how it shaped up against a UA one .

The UAs are considered as good as the originals by a few guys I know who have done A/Bs

i57dwun4yb1pt8

an someone explain what this means ?

SSL mix bus compressor (or a clone of one!) strapped onto the two bus using an I/O plugin

what does an i/o plugin do ?

fitz

Sends the audio out to an analog device and back in via the plug. Basically allows you to use outboard like a plugin. Logic does it well, as Trackmix said, he does it regularly. Not sure how you do it other DAWs.

Paul, I've not heard the IGS 2176, but it's seemingly based off the LN schematic on the diy forums, and it's not a complicated device really, so I'm happy to take a punt, and will be doing so when funds cone in from some work. At that price, for a linkable stereo 1176, it's too much of a prospect to overlook. With your electronics savvy, I'm sure you could diy one fairly handy.

i57dwun4yb1pt8

looks like reaper can do this

http://www.cockos.com/wiki/index.php/ReaInsert


I wonder is it worth my while slapping a soundcraft spirit f1mixer on the output and sum it , http://www.gbaudio.co.uk/data/f1.htm

or maybe an RNC ( reallyy nece compressor )

since I have no super outboard ,

or would I be better off banging it through the pacifica pre amp and back in
( i guess trhough the DI 's )

fitz

Wouldn't be bothered with the soundcraft on the output, at that stage the summing has already happened. Hardware strapped across the output is just another way of get some analogue character into the mix. The RNC might be worth a blast...see how it sounds...

Seziertisch

fitz wrote: »

Sends the audio out to an analog device and back in via the plug. Basically allows you to use outboard like a plugin. Logic does it well, as Trackmix said, he does it regularly. Not sure how you do it other DAWs.

Paul, I've not heard the IGS 2176, but it's seemingly based off the LN schematic on the diy forums, and it's not a complicated device really, so I'm happy to take a punt, and will be doing so when funds cone in from some work. At that price, for a linkable stereo 1176, it's too much of a prospect to overlook. With your electronics savvy, I'm sure you could diy one fairly handy.

The kit for building a DIY 1176 can be bought for not much cash compared to what buying a new one costs, so from that point of view it makes sense as well, more so than the whole DIY guitar amp/pedal thing does.

madtheory

It's the gain stage that adds the colour, not the summing stage. The Spirit doesn't have any transformers in the audio path, so it's not gonna do much. It does have quite sweet sounding eq though.

madtheory

To clarifiy "not much" means it will do something, but it might not be what you're after.

splitrmx

I've got a good bit of outboard gear and the main reason I put it all into a mixing desk instead of separately into a few channels of an A/D converter is because I hate computers and like the immediateness of the analogue mixer coupled with analogue (and some digital) effects.

No messing around with latency settings, i/o plugins, computers etc. Boy do I hate computers!

MilanPan!c

splitrmx wrote: »

I've got a good bit of outboard gear and the main reason I put it all into a mixing desk instead of separately into a few channels of an A/D converter is because I hate computers and like the immediateness of the analogue mixer coupled with analogue (and some digital) effects.

No messing around with latency settings, i/o plugins, computers etc. Boy do I hate computers!

You should hear what they say about you.

madtheory

Ya, it is a lot of fun using an analogue desk, patch bay and outboard. It seems to take about the same amount of time as an ITB mix as well. There are some big problems with OTB though- there's rarely enough outboard, recall is very difficult, and gain structure is more difficult (i.e. not impossible, but uses up brain power that might be better used elsewhere).

Using tape has become a pain too. I don't use it much at all, mainly just for demonstration, but we're gonna run out of 456 at some point. I hear current formulations are different. And the rubber parts on the Revoxes are starting to disintegrate. They won't be around for long more. They're only PR99, but you really feel like you're doing something important when those reels are spinning.

i57dwun4yb1pt8

ive decided not to bother with this - good discussion but its not worth the hassle .

Robin Ball

I have read a fair few of these in my time, what seems to the pattern that has emerged to my mind is that it's actually quite rare that people really know what they're stuff and this is all so subjective that is it really relevant in todays industry with tight deadlines & ever decreasing budgets. Use the tools that you know, get the job done with in the least time possible.

Personally I mix all the time, with out the convenience of PT my business would move slower and I'd have to charge higher rates to all. I use analog summing, it's always in a static mode. If I didn't have it things would still pretty much be the same. Since I did pay for it I ain't getting rid of it though, it's definitely a 1% box.