New Bill would ban begging near ATMs

NavyandBlue

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0130/1224263434247.html

BEGGING WILL be prohibited within 10m of ATM cash-dispensing machines under the terms of proposed new legislation published yesterday by Minister for Justice Dermot Ahern.
The Criminal Justice (Public Order) Bill 2010 comes in the wake of a High Court judgment that the current law, dating from 1847, is unconstitutional.
“In line with that judgment, begging will now be an offence where it is accompanied by unacceptable conduct such as harassment, intimidation or obstruction,” according to a statement from the department. The offence carries a penalty of a maximum term of imprisonment of one month and/or a fine of up to €400.
Other new powers under the Bill would enable gardaí to direct people begging within 10m of an ATM to desist and to move on from the vicinity.

Gardaí may also direct people begging within 10m of the entrance to a business premises, “where their behaviour or number is likely to deter members of the public from entering that premises”, to move on. Gardaí may also direct a person who is begging to desist and to move on where the person is begging in a manner or location that would give rise to a reasonable apprehension for the safety of people or property or for the maintenance of the public peace (eg, begging from traffic on roads and motorways).
“This Bill gives us a modern and reasonable solution to a problem we cannot ignore. I am confident this new power will be an effective addition to An Garda Síochána’s enforcement options,” Mr Ahern said. “The new Bill will confront the nuisance caused by begging but does so in a way that is reasonable and effective. It will not criminalise anyone who is forced to ask for help , provided the person acts reasonably and peacefully.
The High Court found section 3 of the Vagrancy (Ireland) Act 1847 was unconstitutional due to its lack of certainty. It was also held to represent a disproportionate interference with the Constitution’s provisions on freedom of expression and freedom to communicate. However, it stated there was nothing in its decision to prevent the Oireachtas from enacting new laws to control begging.

Hank_Jones

I'm guessing this is one of Ahern's own personal hates.

Can't imagine that he likes putting his hand in his pocket.

kumate_champ07

it beggars belief how something hasnt been done about this sooner :mad:

Victor

Actually, I think its important at ATMs. I was using one of the ATMS at BOI at College Green last year and there was a guy going up to the people as they were using the ATM aggressively demanding money, which isn't on. Such behaviour is often used as a distraction while mugging people.

opinion guy

Hank_Jones wrote: »

I'm guessing this is one of Ahern's own personal hates.

Can't imagine that he likes putting his hand in his pocket.

Don't these guys have someone to do that kind of thing for them ?


Besides - has anyone ever seen a politian using an ATM. Don't they just phone the local bank manager and say "I fancy a spot of shopping - send me some blank checks"

winston82

This should apply to buskers too then. I don't know in ins and outs of law but what is the difference between someone busking on the street looking for money and someone begging?

PCPhoto

and typical ..... muppets saying that the new proposal is wrong...ffs - obviously these people think its ok to annoy people trying to spend their hard earned money.

NavyandBlue

winston82 wrote: »

This should apply to buskers too then. I don't know in ins and outs of law but what is the difference between someone busking on the street looking for money and someone begging?

I hope that this Bill would be extended to chuggers as well.

minidazzler

winston82 wrote: »

This should apply to buskers too then. I don't know in ins and outs of law but what is the difference between someone busking on the street looking for money and someone begging?

Because you won't feel intimidated by a busker singing, while some guy a meter from your face sitting under an ATM will intimidate you no matter how nicely they ask!

Hank_Jones

opinion guy wrote: »

Don't these guys have someone to do that kind of thing for them ?


Besides - has anyone ever seen a politian using an ATM. Don't they just phone the local bank manager and say "I fancy a spot of shopping - send me some blank checks"

Then they phone the shops and tell them to bring over their latest wares.

''Hello, is that Brown Thomas?,bring all the clothes. Don't forget the champagne.''

Dubs

The imprisonment thing is kind of good, it gives them somewhere to stay for a month with food and the likes rather than living on the street, though if they like it too much it could just encourage them to do more serious crimes to get a longer stay in prison.

The whole fining someone 400 euro whos begging for money is a bit ridiculous imo. Theyre hardly going to address the bill to the box behind the Jervis Centre.

Biggins

I'm all for the adoption of the new law.
There is one guy in my home town that sits right beside a bank machine (in our main street) and some times actually stands up while your at the machine and begs for money in your ear while your trying to withdraw your cash (he looking over your shoulder).
Its not intimidating for me 'cos I deal with him but I presume others would be nervious about standing up to him.

Anything that helps with this type of crap, I'm all for.

IsThisIt???

winston82 wrote: »

This should apply to buskers too then. I don't know in ins and outs of law but what is the difference between someone busking on the street looking for money and someone begging?

The difference is buskers don't ask for money for doing nothing. They try to provide some entertainment and simply leave it up to people to give money if they wish. I've never come across an aggressive busker.

Xluna

I can't see how this can be realistically enforced. A waste of time imo.

Hank_Jones

winston82 wrote: »

This should apply to buskers too then. I don't know in ins and outs of law but what is the difference between someone busking on the street looking for money and someone begging?

Buskers are providing you with a service.
Anyway, I certainly don't think that I have ever come across a busker who was offended when I didn't hand over my hard earned cash.

''I've just met you, I suppose I owe you something then...''

kumate_champ07

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

it beggars belief how something hasnt been done about this sooner :mad:

<Ahem>

Mark200

There's often a beggar sitting beside the ATM at Pearse Station (Dublin). It'd be pretty intimidating for anyone who's attempting to take their money out of an ATM.

Hank_Jones

To be honest the ATM that comes to mind with regards to this, the two machines outside Bank of Ireland on Camden Street.
Pretty much any night of the week, there is somebody sitting between the two machines, annoying you for money as you use the machines.

Tchaikovsky

Hmm, ban leeches who think that by doing nothing all day, they have the right to prise you of your hard-earned cash?

So politicians will be next in line?

Iwasfrozen

Tchaikovsky wrote: »

Hmm, ban leeches who think that by doing nothing all day, they have the right to prise you of your hard-earned cash?

So politicians will be next in line?

Would you rather live in a country without politicans ? No ?
I didn't think so. Save your dirbble for the Daily Mail.

Tchaikovsky

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Would you rather live in a country without politicans ? No ?
I didn't think so. Save your dirbble for the Daily Mail.

Right now, anarchy sounds like a far more tempting prospect.

Or a country without such inequalities and injustices perpetuated by the political class would do fine also.

bonerm

Hank_Jones wrote: »

To be honest the ATM that comes to mind with regards to this, the two machines outside Bank of Ireland on Camden Street.

Perhaps you could go in the morning. I use that machine regularily and there's no-one there at that time.

Dubs wrote: »

The whole fining someone 400 euro whos begging for money is a bit ridiculous imo.

Absolutely, especially as the max I canwithdraw is €300.

Iwasfrozen

Tchaikovsky wrote: »

Right now, anarchy sounds like a far more tempting prospect.

Or a country without such inequalities and injustices perpetuated by the political class would do fine also.

I'm amazed at how much you can come out with, it really is unbelivable.
I don't want to de-rail this thread any futher but I'll say this much, Anarchy will never work. The reasons for this should be obvious.

Mike 1972

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Would you rather live in a country without politicans ? No ?
I didn't think so. Save your dirbble for the Daily Mail.

Tchaikovsky wrote: »

Right now, anarchy sounds like a far more tempting prospect.
Or a country without such inequalities and injustices perpetuated by the political class would do fine also.

Whatever one can say about the second post quoted above It hardly comes across as the work of a Daily Mail reader ?

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Anarchy will never work.

Probably but one cant say for definite until they try

Iwasfrozen

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Whatever one can say about the second post quoted above It hardly comes across as the work of a Daily Mail reader ?


Probably but once cant say for definite until they try

The Daily Mail thing was based on his first quote.

Tchaikovsky

I've never, nor will I ever, read The Daily Mein Kampf


(Still can't believe they have an Oirish version of that piece of **** rag.)

Mike 1972

Tchaikovsky wrote: »

....The Daily Mein Kampf
(Still can't believe they have an Oirish version of that piece of **** rag.)

Hebrew edition coming soon

Hank_Jones

bonerm wrote: »

Perhaps you could go in the morning. I use that machine regularily and there's no-one there at that time.

I suppose I'd have do move my drinking schedule around to accomodate the day time as opossed to night time then.

Not that I have a problem with that.

It's always beer o'clock.

Red_Marauder

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

it beggars belief

Don't you be beggaring belief

Tchaikovsky

Is anyone else sick to the back teeth of banning everything?

Wouldn't, I don't know, trying to tackle the conditions that create homelessness and crime make more long-term sense?

It's a sign of cluelessness and laziness and the problem won't go away because of it.

Hank_Jones

Tchaikovsky wrote: »

Wouldn't, I don't know, trying to tackle the conditions that create homelessness and crime make more long-term sense?

I was actually kind of thinking that.
Maybe they could take some money and try and tackle homelessness.
It's not as if we haven't got enough empty buildings around the country.

It's more than likely just another smokescreen.
Dermot Ahern is certainly not a person that I would hold in high esteem.

R0ot

Finally.

Mike 1972

Tchaikovsky wrote: »

Is anyone else sick to the back teeth of banning everything?

Wouldn't, I don't know, trying to tackle the conditions that create homelessness and crime make more long-term sense?

Doing both would make even more sense

Jumpy

Tchaikovsky wrote: »

Is anyone else sick to the back teeth of banning everything?

Wouldn't, I don't know, trying to tackle the conditions that create homelessness and crime make more long-term sense?

It's a sign of cluelessness and laziness and the problem won't go away because of it.

This law is aimed at Roma by the sounds of it. No conditions created that lifestyle (at least not in the past century), its their culture.

Jenroche

It's not just Roma. There's Irish people who do it too. The guy who sits beside the ATM at Artane roundabout AIB springs to mind.

Jen ;->

Xluna

Tchaikovsky wrote: »

Is anyone else sick to the back teeth of banning everything?

Wouldn't, I don't know, trying to tackle the conditions that create homelessness and crime make more long-term sense?

It's a sign of cluelessness and laziness and the problem won't go away because of it.

Better yet, there's thousands of empty houses around the country. Have the government buy them and rehouse these destitute people. But no,that would make too much sense.

Cheap Thrills!

Hurray for new Bill !!!!

Guell72

Bring it on.
And outlaw begging altogether while they are at it

artielange

Don't worry as the banks have a new policy of removing all ATM's to prevent begging and to keep their hard earned cash.

Sofiztikated

Em.

So they are going to fine them €400?

Methinks they haven't thought this through.

The people are begging. I doubt they still have their SSIA squirrelled away.

Feck it, its another stupid law that'll be enforced for about a week, then let fall through the cracks.

Hank_Jones

Sofiztikated wrote: »

Em.

So they are going to fine them €400?

Methinks they haven't thought this through.

The people are begging. I doubt they still have their SSIA squirrelled away.

I'd imagine that would lead to more crime.

As in, beggars steal to get the €400.

I really do love our government, they're always interesting at least.

bazmaiden

E400!!!

How about just using the cctv at ATM's to deter these guys!!

I mean it can't be that hard for on patrol Gardai to be notified of the beggers presense and quickly move them from the area. Asking ppl who beg to pay back that much cash is crazy

Sofiztikated

Hank_Jones wrote: »

I'd imagine that would lead to more crime.

As in, beggars steal to get the €400.

I really do love our government, they're always interesting at least.

bazmaiden wrote: »

E400!!!

How about just using the cctv at ATM's to deter these guys!!

I mean it can't be that hard for on patrol Gardai to be notified of the beggers presense and quickly move them from the area. Asking ppl who beg to pay back that much cash is crazy

But...but...but...but its much easier to ban them!

Actually doing something about it would be sensible!

RTTH

Dermot Ahern must have been following this thread.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055761553&highlight=beggars

Mike 1972

If someone is genuinely reduced to living/sleeping in the streets would prison actually be much of a deterrant at that point ?

Especially if the plasma screens and playstations turn out to be more than just exaguration/urban myth

Irish Guitarist

How will they pay the fine? I suppose they'll have to beg someone for €400.

Mad_Max

Xluna wrote: »

Better yet, there's thousands of empty houses around the country. Have the government buy them and rehouse these destitute people. But no,that would make too much sense.

What about ordinary working people who never got a penny before, who got their houses taken off them then, buy them a gaff too?

Where does your charity line stop?

I'd start begging if it got me one of them "empty houses".

RTTH

Irish Guitarist wrote: »

How will they pay the fine? I suppose they'll have to beg someone for €400.

Easy, just pay it by cheque.

Kaizer Sosa

I wish they would ban toilet attendants too! They're the scourge of my nights out. I wash my own hands, have to refuse the tissue they thrust in my face aggressively and they still have the nerve to start jangling their tip jar as I'm trying to walk past them. Some might appreciate their services but they are worse than beggars and chuggers for me.:mad:

Sorry for veering slightly off-topic..

Jeanious

The thing i don't get is, why only 10m from an ATM? Why not 100m? 1Km? 408 miles? (The distance from Malin head to Mizen head, by the way!) Why can we not just make begging illegal, full stop? Also, ban the fcuk out of begging beside LUAS ticket machines as well, another thundering pain in the hole.

Jaysus between beggars, chuggers, surveyers and other assorted w@nkers, walking around Dublin (and i'm sure Cork, Galway, Limerick etc.) is like tackling the fcuking Krypton Factor's assault course. Take back the city!

Guy:Incognito

I love the naivety of the posters that actually believe the guys sitting at atm's are genuine down on your luck homeless people. Take a closer look at the way they are dressed etc next time. Most are junkies and/or just scummers that are no doubt on the dole but fancy suppliment it without working.



Plus. Was;nt this discussed here the other day?