Italian entry to competition now unlikely

Doctor Zaius

From the Irish Times:

RUGBY MAGNERS LEAGUE: THE PROPOSAL to have two Italian teams, comprised of home-based players, competing in an expanded, 12-team Magners League looks set to be formally shot down today.The Celtic League board had asked for a €3 million warranty from the FIR (Italian Rugby federation) to offset the costs of having two Italian franchises in the league for a four-year trial and set a deadline of this morning. However, the FIR president Giancarlo Dondi – the driving force behind the proposal – has said he will reject this demand.
Dondi and the FIR had offered to refund the Irish, Welsh and Scottish teams for expenses incurred in travelling to matches in Italy, no profit-sharing for the Italian franchises and a projected Italian television deal of €300,000 to €400,000, but is believed to be furious at the demand for a €3 million warranty.
The proposal has been tripping over stumbling blocks virtually since Dondi, strongly supported by Italian coach Nick Mallett, first floated the idea.
Last July, the FIR board agreed that Viadana and Rome would be the two nominated Italian franchises. But Dondi supported Viadana and Treviso, rather than Rome, and forced the board to create two commissions – financial and technical – to verify the credentials of Viadana and Rome. The man chosen to chair the financial commission was Zeno Zanandrea, the FIR vice-president from Treviso.
After Dondi called another FIR board meeting in October, the financial commission declared that the Rome bid be rejected due to a supposed lack of financial strength and Treviso was chosen instead, which in turn prompted the Rome franchise to take the FIR to a court of justice.
In any event, when Dondi met with the Magners League chief executive David Jordan and the chairman John Hussey on January 8th, the FIR president cooled on the proposal in light of the league’s request for the €3 million warranty or entry fee.
The problem is that having planned to enter two franchises in the Magners League, the Italians depleted their championship for 2010-11.
The Super 10 will became a Super 12 and two major clubs (Calvisano and Unione Capitolina) had dismantled their senior sides, relegating themselves to lower leagues, because their sponsors are not interested in a semi-professional Super 12.
Without Magners, the best Italian-based Italian players will not have top-level rugby next season.
Hence, Dondi is now exploring the possibility of entering two Italian selections to play in the Heineken Cup, but that looks a long-shot at this stage as well.


Disappointed to hear this. Would have been a great boost to rugby in Italy.

WeeBushy

That's terrible news.

It would've been great for supporters to be able to travel to Italy, but most importantly it would've created two (hopefully) competitive Italian teams. They need to be part of a top league if the national team wants to progress.

Its a real shame, the €3 million warranty seems a bit greedy, it looks like magners just wanted to take and not give anything back.

toomevara

If this in fact turns out to be the case I would say this is one of the worst examples of greedy, grasping, grubby short-termism I've ever seen from any set of rugby administrators. Its absolutely outrageous to impose that demand on the FIR and they're 100% correct to refuse to pay.

It's clear that the Heineken cup is a bridge too far for the Italian clubs, a couple of ML spots would have given them a chance to at least prove partially competitive on occasion and give their fans something to cheer about instead of endless defeat and humiliation. When you look at the team Italy is fielding for this year's 6N you can see that the game there continues to slide backwards form its early-mid nineties high point...BUT despite all this 80,000+ turn out to the san siro to watch the Italians play the AB's!

Huge appetite for the game in italy, people want to follow it and as we all know from the Irish experience localised club success is the way to go in building the game and a following from the ground up. The ML is the perfect avenue for this. I mean if we cant grow the game in italy, what realistically is the future for RU outside of the SANZAR/ "home' unions? I'll be absolutely astounded if the Times story proves correct.

buck65

Surely the French league would be a better place for the Italian teams?. Not Top 14 but the lower division and let them build from there. They are virtually next door neighbours.

Chucky the tree

The way he backdoored Treisvo into it in such a dodgy and dishonest fashion I see no problem in asking for some kind of warrantly he doesn't make a balls of it.

Dissapointing news alright and it leaves Italian club rugby in a real no-mans land now. The 3m warranty seems extortionate but I think the Italian Federation seems to be a poorly run organisation and a lot of the blame has to lie at their own door.

However, the provincial type setup is really unique to ourselves in Ireland and trying to find the right participants for the Magners League was always going to be difficult.Really there would be no justification for Roma being selected on rugby grounds ahead of Treviso.

On the French point I think they'd rather shut down the Top 14 rather than let the Italians in.

TheGod

What an utter disgrace.

BoarHunter

buck65 wrote: »

Surely the French league would be a better place for the Italian teams?. Not Top 14 but the lower division and let them build from there. They are virtually next door neighbours.

becareful you are cuting corners here nobody advised the irish clubs the like of garryowen and bohemians to start all over in second division of the Guiness premiership. after all you are just next door neighbours :rolleyes:

No in order to improve the game in Ireland they created big franchise teams and that's what is needed in Italy to be viable. Economic stability and consistent high level long term building.

playing as a Franchise cannot be done in any other league than the magners.

Aidric

A bit of a renegade step and a blow to the Italians hopes of building something strong.

anonymous_joe

The whole thing was doomed from the beginning though.

The way the teams were chosen, etc, just wasn't fair/just/whatever.

More than anything they need to either get into the French league or just start spending more money and signing the best... Easier said than done.

profitius

I was never 100% in favour of it for a number of reasons.

- Itay is far away, not a Celtic nation.
- It'd mean 4 more games a season for the Irish teams. Theres already potentially more this season with the playoffs.
- Having more games and less weeks off could effect the HEC performances.
- The ML's quality would get watered down a bit. That wouldn't be good for its image.
- The ML is growing ever year and becoming stronger so theres no point in changing it.


In taking some of those into account its understandable that the ML would want decent compensation. The Irish system and number of games players play is being applauded by everybody so why change that?

TheGod

profitius wrote: »

- Itay is far away, not a Celtic nation.

At most 3 hours in a plane. Same amount of time it would take Leinster to travel to Thomond Park.

- It'd mean 4 more games a season for the Irish teams. Theres already potentially more this season with the playoffs.

More chances to field up coming talent against weaker Italian sides.

- Having more games and less weeks off could effect the HEC performances.

See above.

- The ML's quality would get watered down a bit. That wouldn't be good for its image.

I think having another country from the top 10 involved can only be good for it's image.

- The ML is growing ever year and becoming stronger so theres no point in changing it.

It wouldn't be challenging it. If anything it would make the league even more enjoyable. I'd say lots of fans would relish the chance to travel to Italy for games and it would inject some excitment into the league with 2 new teams.

In taking some of those into account its understandable that the ML would want decent compensation. The Irish system and number of games players play is being applauded by everybody so why change that?

4 extra games is hardly overload and with the Play off system they could easily play academy players for those games if they so wish.

profitius

TheGod wrote: »

At most 3 hours in a plane. Same amount of time it would take Leinster to travel to Thomond Park.

You have to travel to the airports, check in, stay in hotels, when you arrive travel to the ground and do it all again going home. Leinster can play Munster and be home in a few hours.

TheGod wrote: »

More chances to field up coming talent against weaker Italian sides.


I think having another country from the top 10 involved can only be good for it's image.

People don't want to watch second teams and the novelty of having Italian teams would soon wear off. Sponsors and fans would not want to pay as much to watch their teams second team. It would also lower playing standards in the ML therefore turn it into a bit of a joke.

TheGod wrote: »

It wouldn't be challenging it. If anything it would make the league even more enjoyable. I'd say lots of fans would relish the chance to travel to Italy for games and it would inject some excitment into the league with 2 new teams.

Yeah it'd be nice for the fans.

TheGod wrote: »

4 extra games is hardly overload and with the Play off system they could easily play academy players for those games if they so wish.

Irish players are only allowed to play so many games anyway so it would be the second string who would have to play more.


Quality over quantity

TheGod

profitius wrote: »

You have to travel to the airports, check in, stay in hotels, when you arrive travel to the ground and do it all again going home. Leinster can play Munster and be home in a few hours.

So its 2 hours longer than when they fly over to Scotland or Wales? Doesn't seem like a big deal.

People don't want to watch second teams and the novelty of having Italian teams would soon wear off. Sponsors and fans would not want to pay as much to watch their teams second team. It would also lower playing standards in the ML therefore turn it into a bit of a joke.

I do. I think lots of people get excited when they see a team sheet containing some of their clubs most exciting talents. I know I do anyway.

Yeah it'd be nice for the fans.

Isn't that the most important thing?

Irish players are only allowed to play so many games anyway so it would be the second string who would have to play more.

Thats a good thing! More games for the likes of McFadden, Toner, Ryan, O'Donaghue and the likes can only be a good thing

Digifriendly

Point made recently about failure of GP teams to qualify for HC knockout stages (Northampton are the only one compared to 3 ML teams) was number of games they play. If there are 4 more games next season for ML teams I reckon this will have an effect on HC. As regards crowds wanting to see second string teams turn out, look at the LV (Anglo-Welsh Cup) as an example of this and compare gates to this weekends fixtures with those on a GP weekend.

TheGod

Digifriendly wrote: »

Point made recently about failure of GP teams to qualify for HC knockout stages (Northampton are the only one compared to 3 ML teams) was number of games they play. If there are 4 more games next season for ML teams I reckon this will have an effect on HC. As regards crowds wanting to see second string teams turn out, look at the LV (Anglo-Welsh Cup) as an example of this and compare gates to this weekends fixtures with those on a GP weekend.

But the GP is a lot more open and teams can't afford to rest players for games. With the new play off scheme in the ML teams can afford to rest players and certainly could against the Italian sides. Of course people are naturally not going to go to second string games in large numbers as they don't particularly care about the result. But if these players are playing for the first team they will certainly go as its an ML game which will have an effect on their standings.

Also lets not forget that Irish players are now limited in the amount of games they play anyway! So I doubt 4 extra games will have any effect.

Chucky the tree

The ML is a bit of joke standard wise already, two more Italian teams won't make a difference.

Digifriendly

Chucky the tree wrote: »

The ML is a bit of joke standard wise already, two more Italian teams won't make a difference.

Tad harsh I think. Remember 3 ML teams in HC quarter-finals, only one GP side.

profitius

The AIL recently split the league into 2 because they wanted a higher standard of matches. There were too many poor teams who dragged the standard down.


Now its seems some people here wants the ML to do the opposite which is something I don't get.


There would be benefits for fringe players getting game time but theres already the British and Irish cup and A matches for them.

chucky the tree wrote:

The ML is a bit of joke standard wise already, two more Italian teams won't make a difference.

Some people say its a joke because the first choice players are missing too much. I think they're missing too much too but I can see the point in resting them. Having 4 extra games without them would mean they'd probably be available for half the games or less which wouldn't look too good for the ML.

dreamer_ire

Am disapointed about this. I was one of the very many Munster fans who travelled to Treviso this year for the HC match and it was a great trip. I had hoped to see more rugby in Italy over the coming years but looks like now it'll be HC or 6N.

Doctor Zaius

Italians will not join Magners League

The Magners League will not see the addition of the two Italian teams next season after negotiations between the board of Celtic Rugby Ltd and the Italian Rugby Federation (FIR) failed to reach agreement on the terms of their inclusion.
The move was first mooted in March last year and discussions have been ongoing ever since but the Celtic League today announced it was “disappointed that it has not proven possible to conclude a satisfactory agreement with the Italian Rugby Federation (FIR)”.
“Celtic Rugby engaged Deloitte to conduct a comprehensive “due diligence” process to satisfy the shareholders and existing Magners League clubs of the feasibility, financial and otherwise of this structural change to the Magners League and in particular to ensure there was no resulting net cost to the existing ten clubs,” a statement read this afternoon.
“Following an extensive process that involved consultations with FIR and its nominated clubs, the existing Magners League participants and Celtic Rugby, Deloitte provided a report to Celtic Rugby in December 2009, clarifying the various parameters that had been met and that would need to be met.
“Despite extensive discussions between Celtic Rugby and FIR in December and January it has not been possible to reach a satisfactory agreement by the deadline set of end January 2010.”
FIR president Giancarlo Dondi is believed to have rejected a Celtic League board demand for a €3 million warranty to offset the costs of having two Italian franchises in the league for a four-year trial.
Without Magners, the best Italian-based Italian players will not have top-level rugby next season. Hence, Dondi is now exploring the possibility of entering two Italian selections to play in the Heineken Cup, but that looks a long-shot at this stage as well.

At least it's not ruled out completely. Hopefully they'll get something sorted for the following season. 2011-12.

Real FM

A step back for the development of Italian rugby.

I think the worst thing about it is how short a deadline they were giving. Really looks like they were forced into a decision - no time whatsoever to attempt to raise the funds.

thomond2006

Real FM wrote: »

I think the worst thing about it is how short a deadline they were giving. Really looks like they were forced into a decision - no time whatsoever to attempt to raise the funds.

To be fair, Celtic Rugby didn't want a last minute decision.

phog

I thought it was worth trialling even if it did mean extra games. It could have been good for Italy in the 6Ns too.

Real FM

thomond2006 wrote: »

To be fair, Celtic Rugby didn't want a last minute decision.

True. I can understand that, but I think they should have at least been given a week! The start of next years season is still a good bit away.

Chucky the tree

Digifriendly wrote: »

Tad harsh I think. Remember 3 ML teams in HC quarter-finals, only one GP side.

If the GP could rest all there big stars as much as the ML teams could then you'd see a lot more GP teams in it.

Digifriendly

Chucky the tree wrote: »

If the GP could rest all there big stars as much as the ML teams could then you'd see a lot more GP teams in it.

Fair point. Interesting that Harlequins rested Danny Care/Ugo Monye from HC rather than GP earlier in the season. Generally agreed that ML is not that far behind GP in terms of standard. A friend of mine watched Bath vs Saracens at Recreation ground in GP then flew home and watched Munster vs Ulster on TV and said the second game was of a much higher standard.

funky penguin

Irish derby's are generally high intensity anyways.

Interesting point GT makes in this article regarding the GP interest in the HC.

Perhaps now though, it’s time we asked whether it’s the English who prioritise their domestic league over the European Cup. On-line polls can perhaps give a false picture, but when London Irish asked their supporters which competition they’d most like to win this season, something like 99.5 per cent of the respondents favoured the Guinness Premiership.

toomevara

funky penguin wrote: »

Irish derby's are generally high intensity anyways.

Interesting point GT makes in this article regarding the GP interest in the HC.

Really don't think thats surprising at all. TBH if this wasn't LI's main focus I'd be seriously non-plussed. This is the bread and butter competition for English clubs and its the one that we supporters go to see week-in week-out. The Heineken cup is a nice distraction but the GP is where its at. This is only regarded as unusual/exceptional from a Celtic perspective because club rugby is effectively dead in all these countries watched only by the most die hard of fans and has minimal impact in the media. Ask any french fan the same question and they'd plump for the Championnat over the HEC any time.

Jay P

buck65 wrote: »

Surely the French league would be a better place for the Italian teams?. Not Top 14 but the lower division and let them build from there. They are virtually next door neighbours.

That's exactly what I was thinking. The Magner's League is maybe a four hour flight from Italy? And that's just the logistics of the whole thing. As someone else pointed out, the season is already tightly packed. Adding four extra games to the season certainly is not very viable.

funky penguin

toomevara wrote: »

Really don't think thats surprising at all. TBH if this wasn't LI's main focus I'd be seriously non-plussed. This is the bread and butter competition for English clubs and its the one that we supporters go to see week-in week-out. The Heineken cup is a nice distraction but the GP is where its at. This is only regarded as unusual/exceptional from a Celtic perspective because club rugby is effectively dead in all these countries watched only by the most die hard of fans and has minimal impact in the media. Ask any french fan the same question and they'd plump for the Championnat over the HEC any time.

Have to wonder what makes the Magners different then. Maybe the fact that theres no relegation? Or the fact that playoffs are only new?

Personally, I love the magners league and was VERY happy when Leinster won it two years ago. It grinds me sometimes when supports and coaches push it aside as almost meaningless. Hopefully the playoffs will ignite some fire into it.

Saying all this though, I think Cheika is doing an excellent job of managing teh HEC, the ML and the Player management system. Tough balance.

anonymous_joe

funky penguin wrote: »

Have to wonder what makes the Magners different then. Maybe the fact that theres no relegation? Or the fact that playoffs are only new?

Personally, I love the magners league and was VERY happy when Leinster won it two years ago. It grinds me sometimes when supports and coaches push it aside as almost meaningless. Hopefully the playoffs will ignite some fire into it.

Saying all this though, I think Cheika is doing an excellent job of managing teh HEC, the ML and the Player management system. Tough balance.

No relegation and everyone gets into the Heineken Cup. (Connacht aside.)

The English league might be a bit shíte, but as a rugby playing country, they can at least sustain a league. Neither Ireland, Wales nor Scotland could do so. You'd need somewhere in the region of 18 teams, divided into two leagues, with only the top 5 or 6 making it into the Heineken Cup to make the league matter.

Podge_irl

The GP and especially the T14 have been around a lot longer than the ML. The ML is already unrecognisably better from its early days and is continuing to improve. As crowds increase and the teams become stronger it will become a better product and teams will take it more seriously. Leinster's current success is very much built on their success in the Magners.

Jay P

anonymous_joe wrote: »

No relegation and everyone gets into the Heineken Cup. (Connacht aside.)

The English league might be a bit shíte, but as a rugby playing country, they can at least sustain a league. Neither Ireland, Wales nor Scotland could do so. You'd need somewhere in the region of 18 teams, divided into two leagues, with only the top 5 or 6 making it into the Heineken Cup to make the league matter.

England and France can sustain a proper league because they're a whole lot bigger than Ireland, Wales and Scotland are. That said, in terms of quality, there are maybe 3 teams in each league that are top-quality.

toomevara

Jay P wrote: »

there are maybe 3 teams in each league that are top-quality.

I wouldn't agree with that. The simple fact of that matter is that proper club based, league rugby like that played in the GP/Championnat with the ever present threat of relegation, the necessity to maintain financial/commercial viability and the strains imposed on the squad system by the huge number of games played imposes a different dynamic on a team.

Drop Munster/Leinster/Ulster into a system like this where they have to sing for their supper, play week-in week-out, cant rely, to a large extent, on much in the way of central funding I reckon they'd struggle. They're also guaranteed HEC/ML places every year. Frankly its a completely uneven playing field and comparisons just aren't that easy to make.

ScrubsfanChris

Jay P wrote: »

England and France can sustain a proper league because they're a whole lot bigger than Ireland, Wales and Scotland are. That said, in terms of quality, there are maybe 3 teams in each league that are top-quality.

Exacty, population of:
England = 52m
France = 65m
Wales, Ireland, Scotland = 14m

In terms of quality v. population size, the Celtic nations are top notch.

anonymous_joe

Jay P wrote: »

England and France can sustain a proper league because they're a whole lot bigger than Ireland, Wales and Scotland are. That said, in terms of quality, there are maybe 3 teams in each league that are top-quality.

Well obviously they're bigger. :P

In terms of 3, that's not fair. Stade, Toulouse, Perp, Biarritz, Clermont, Toulon and Racing is a lot more than 3.

Leicester, Saints, Liarish, Saffracens and Wasps is too.

toomevara wrote: »

I wouldn't agree with that. The simple fact of that matter is that proper club based, league rugby like that played in the GP/Championnat with the ever present threat of relegation, the necessity to maintain financial/commercial viability and the strains imposed on the squad system by the huge number of games played imposes a different dynamic on a team.

Drop Munster/Leinster/Ulster into a system like this where they have to sing for their supper, play week-in week-out, cant rely, to a large extent, on much in the way of central funding I reckon they'd struggle. They're also guaranteed HEC/ML places every year. Frankly its a completely uneven playing field and comparisons just aren't that easy to make.

It is uneven. Hence Irish success in the HC.

Above all though, the major problem is English conservatism. They play awful rugby considering their resources.

ScrubsfanChris wrote: »

Exacty, population of:
England = 52m
France = 65m
Wales, Ireland, Scotland = 14m

In terms of quality v. population size, the Celtic nations are top notch.

That's not entirely fair.

England has more rugby players than France, despite France being bigger. England and then South Africa have the most rugby players in the world.

Ireland, Wales and Scotland together have about 50,000 rugby players. England has about 200,000 on its own.

France is somewhere between 80 and 100k.

toomevara

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Above all though, the major problem is English conservatism. They play awful rugby considering their resources.

Whilst I agree that the English national team play cookie cutter, percentage rugby this simply isn't true of a great number of GP teams. This is a perennial problem when discussing the GP...when people speak of 'English rugby' they're inavariably speaking of the clodhopping, braindead dross you see the national XV playing. This has little to do with what goes on club-rugby fields every weekend.

You cannot possibly go to see Northampton, LI, Sarries, Newcastle...indeed the top half of the GP play this year and say they play conservative rugby. Contrary to received wisdom and popular myth these teams are playing heads up, exciting, attacking rugby and I've seen some excellent matches. The fact that this does not translate to what the national team does is not a reflection on the GP and is, frankly, neither here nor there...

PhatPiggins

toomevara wrote: »

Whilst I agree that the English national team play cookie cutter, percentage rugby this simply isn't true of a great number of GP teams. This is a perennial problem when discussing the GP...when people speak of 'English rugby' they're inavariably speaking of the clodhopping, braindead dross you see the national XV playing. This has little to do with what goes on club-rugby fields every weekend.

You cannot possibly go to see Northampton, LI, Sarries, Newcastle...indeed the top half of the GP play this year and say they play conservative rugby. Contrary to received wisdom and popular myth these teams are playing heads up, exciting, attacking rugby and I've seen some excellent matches. The fact that this does not translate to what the national team does is not a reflection on the GP and is, frankly, neither here nor there...

You might want to rethink that example

anonymous_joe

toomevara wrote: »

Whilst I agree that the English national team play cookie cutter, percentage rugby this simply isn't true of a great number of GP teams. This is a perennial problem when discussing the GP...when people speak of 'English rugby' they're inavariably speaking of the clodhopping, braindead dross you see the national XV playing. This has little to do with what goes on club-rugby fields every weekend.

You cannot possibly go to see Northampton, LI, Sarries, Newcastle...indeed the top half of the GP play this year and say they play conservative rugby. Contrary to received wisdom and popular myth these teams are playing heads up, exciting, attacking rugby and I've seen some excellent matches. The fact that this does not translate to what the national team does is not a reflection on the GP and is, frankly, neither here nor there...

The only English teams I've seen playing lately are Leicester, Liarish and Saints. None played exciting rugby. (HC stuff though.)

I don't diagree that there are some good players and teams in England and the league, more that there's a cultural thing for English teams and players to be a bit more percentage-ish. I think it's a top down thing.

The messages being sent out all too often are the wrong ones. Shane Geraghty should never have been allowed leave London Irish for one thing, surely the Exiles could do with him rather than a Chris Malone?

Tim Robbins

Digifriendly wrote: »

As regards crowds wanting to see second string teams turn out, look at the LV (Anglo-Welsh Cup) as an example of this and compare gates to this weekends fixtures with those on a GP weekend.

What is it roughly? I wouldn't have a clue as I don't watch it.