best €300-€400 wheels?

lukester

Have been looking at wheels and have read various old posts till my eyes watered.

Intended use: training and/or racing.

I weigh (once I get down to it again) about 80kg.

Current contenders:

Easton EA70

Mavic Cosmic Elite Wheels 2010

At a push, Fulcrum Racing 3s

or

Campagnolo Zonda Wheels 2010 (Shimano variant currently out of stock)

Currently favouring factory built over hand-built.

Any recommendations or opinions on the ones above?

DirkVoodoo

I like the Zondas.

300-400 is a funny price point. It's hard to find a wheel that makes the upgrade worthwhile (unless your current wheels are really, really awful) as a race wheel. I'm not sure I like the look of the cosmic elites, I thought the whole point of the cosmics was all that lovely carbon.

The Zondas are very light though. The Mavic Ksyrium Elites are a similar weight, cost 470 euro per pair: http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=30809

abcdggs

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

I like the Zondas.

Ditto! Love the spoke pattern

Home:Ballyhoura

I have the Mavic Ksyrium Elites and am very happy with them although I got them for €380 from the LBS which is a nice bit cheaper than CRC and falls just within your price bracket.

EDIT: Just looked back at the post I made around the time of getting them and I actually think it was €370 I paid...great price now that I think of it. Fair play

lukester

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

I like the Zondas.

300-400 is a funny price point. It's hard to find a wheel that makes the upgrade worthwhile (unless your current wheels are really, really awful) as a race wheel.

My current wheels are pretty shit.

I take the point on the price range, actually perhaps I should follow this advice from a link on inertia posted by Lumen previously:

We can draw a few important conclusions from this comparison. Essentially the best solution is to have two wheelsets optimised for different conditions:

- The first set is alloy and lower cost. Keep in mind that most of the the big manufacturers high end alloy wheels are not that expensive. Indeed, the differences they offer compared to the lowest budget alloy wheels are often minimal in term of aero and inertia. To be clear, the difference in term of inertia between a Campagnolo Eurus or a Mavic Ksyrium ES (both about 900 euros) and a Shimano WH-R561 (less than 300 euros!) is close to zero. In terms of aerodynamics, we demonstrated in our previous installment that these high cost alloy wheels are slower than the low budget wheels previously mentioned...!

- The second set spins with a carbon rim. We lavish funds saved with the cheap alloy wheels here where the performance benefits are more significant. You get a very light wheelset that will help you save power thanks to the deep rim (aerodynamic) and low inertia.
Pick it from the lead group (from 95 to 115J), or in the first breakaway (sub 95J) if you have the cash. The custom handbuilt wheels are obviously among the best performance/price solutions.

I take the above with a pinch of salt obviously, but I ain't buying carbon rims, that would be just embarrassing currently.

Besides, I'd like a decent wheelset, current ones are flexy as fook, lotsa brake rub going uphill.

DirkVoodoo

Yeah don't listen to him, go buy your wheels!

Surely if they make the bike LOOK better that's all that matters.

lukester

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

Surely if they make the bike LOOK better that's all that matters.

The most important criterion. Also, Italian is a bonus, presently having an infatuation con tutte le cose Italiane.

mloc123

race wheels?

http://www.planet-x-warehouse.co.uk/acatalog/info_WPPX50MPB.html

I know peoples opinions on them differ but at £400 could be worth a chance

Chips Lovell

I'd tend to subscribe to Lumen's school of thought. Solid clinchers for training, fancy and deep for racing. I'd only splash out on the training wheels if I had cash to spare.

But if your current wheels are pants and you need an all-rounder, then I can't fault the Zondas. I have them myself. Very stiff and great, smooth hubs and it's hard to put them out of true. The Fulcrum 3 are more or less the same wheel but with a different spoke pattern.

Lumen

Of those listed I'd go for the Fulcrums. Light enough without the stupid paired spokes of the Zondas (which I understand in practice may be fine, but which offend me in theory).

The problem is that at that price you're going dangerously near the Shimano Dura Ace Wheels CL Clincher 7850, and then there's the cheaper Ultegra-hubbed RS80.

Staro

This has probably been discussed many times before but what is the general feed back on the Planet - X carbon wheels?

I was thinking about buying a pair?

Beasty

I have the Fulcrum 3s, and given the abuse they get on the crap roads I cycle on I am very impressed. I think they are particularly "strong" and suited to those of us who are "well-built"

I have only had to true them on a couple of occasions, by a millimetre or so each time, and have replaced a couple of spokes

Lumen

Staro wrote: »

This has probably been discussed many times before but what is the general feed back on the Planet - X carbon wheels?

I was thinking about buying a pair?

I don't own any, but I spent some time Googling this a few weeks ago when PX had a sale on.

As far as I know they're branded Gigantex rims, which are used by others like wheelsmith.co.uk.

The hubs are fine (I have them in several other pairs of PX wheels).

The rims are not fancy shaped like Zipps, but according to some reports this makes them easier to handle in cross winds (I have no idea whether this is even plausibly true).

Basically, I reached the conclusion that they were strong enough, light enough, aero enough, and more importantly cheap (ish) and rebuildable, which is basically what you want from a tubular race wheel as I understand it (not having done any road racing yet).

Obviously all this assumes that you're comfortable with running tubulars.

Staro

Thanks for the feed back, yep Im ok with tubulars.

At that price I am wondering what the catch is??

Anybody else have a set?

lukester

Lumen wrote: »

stupid paired spokes of the Zondas (which I understand in practice may be fine, but which offend me in theory).

What offends you about them, theoretically?

Chips Lovell

Quigs Snr had a pair of them once. He said he wasn't happy with the hubs, which have since been changed apparently, but found them more reliable than Zipps.

Lumen

lukester wrote: »

What offends you about them, theoretically?

There is a long stretch of rim between each set of spokes. As I understand it, this requires very stiff rims and/or very high spoke tensions. Why bother? Also, if a spoke breaks (the theory goes) the wheel will go so out of true as to become unrideable.

In practice there are lots of people riding light paired spoke wheels who seem perfectly happy.

Which reminds me of this slightly amusing fake-story from the inventor of paired spokes, Rolf Dietrich.

Fake Rolf Dietrich wrote:

“First off, I’d like to say that I always have and always will stand behind paired spoke technology one hundred percent. In fact, I apply the paired spoke principle to nearly every aspect of my life. For example, I don’t eat three moderate-sized meals throughout the day. Instead, I eat two really substantial meals back-to-back every other day. And I don’t sleep eight hours a night. Instead, I take two naps during the day. This makes my life lighter, more aerodynamic and less susceptible to crosswinds.

“In any case, I’d have to say that the worst day I’ve ever had on a bike was the day I had to ride one that was equipped with a pair of traditional wheels with low-profile box-section rims and 32 evenly-spaced spokes. I had completely forgotten how heavy, sluggish, and downright stupid they are. God, people are morons! I feel sorry for them. Even the human body uses my concept. Just look at eyes, nostrils, nipples, testicles, and ovaries. It’s obvious. Paired spoke technology just plain works.”

blorg

Staro wrote: »

Thanks for the feed back, yep Im ok with tubulars.

At that price I am wondering what the catch is??

I don't have a set myself but I think the main catch is that they are a bit on the heavy side for tubular rims. For £400 though...

@Lukester- I would hang around until a particular bargain crops up in the sales. I got Easton EA90SLs for £250 before Christmas from CRC.

For training something like Planet X Model B or C would be a good choice, £125 or so + shipping.

DirkVoodoo

blorg wrote: »

@Lukester- I would hang around until a particular bargain crops up in the sales. I got Easton EA90SLs for £250 before Christmas from CRC.

For training something like Planet X Model B or C would be a good choice, £125 or so + shipping.

Good advice. I bought a pair of Ksyrium SL premiums for 590 euro delivered at the end of last year. While it was a good deal, in hindsight I probably should have listened to Lumen and saved up for a pair of deep section tubulars.

You can also get aksiums or fulcrum 7s for about 150 euro.

DirkVoodoo

http://www.totalbike.com/news/article/772/

The defining design element in Dietrich’s wheels is Paired Spoke Design Technology, which brings spokes from both sides of the hub to one point at the rim. Pairing spokes at the rim successfully counters the lateral force component of the spoke tension and enables wheels to be built with lighter rims and fewer spokes than is possible with traditional wheels. “With the traditional method of spoke lacing, you will quickly realize absolute minimums for rim weight and spoke count. Push these envelopes and wheels will have dangerous handling characteristics and will not stay true".

Lumen

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

http://www.totalbike.com/news/article/772/

Yes, but if you Google a bit more (with "Jobst Brandt") you discover than you actually can't make the rims lighter because they get pulled together in between the spoke pairs.

niceonetom

Lumen wrote: »

RS80.

Having just cracked the rim of my rear wheel I'm looking at getting a new one. Those RS80s are a contender... wonder how durable they are.

I have come to the conclusion that I really need three sets of wheels. A decent set of training wheels (probably 32 spoke openpros on ultegra hubs or similar), a light set for hill climbs and mountain sportives (maybe 7850-CLs), and a deep set for fast flat stuff and general posing (404s). Probably need a disc too. And 'cross wheels.

blorg

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

Good advice. I bought a pair of Ksyrium SL premiums for 590 euro delivered at the end of last year. While it was a good deal, in hindsight I probably should have listened to Lumen and saved up for a pair of deep section tubulars.

You will get far more use out of the Ksyriums. Deep section tubulars are race wheels only IMO, I certainly won't be using mine for anything else.

I think everyone needs a decent pair of clincher wheels; I would prefer to be doing sportives on a nice clincher rather than the likes of Aksiums.

Bear in mind in the price range Planet X wheels are substantially lighter than the likes of Aksiums.

lukester

@blorg On waiting for a bargain, true, that probably makes the most sense. I'm not in any huge rush.

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

You can also get aksiums or fulcrum 7s for about 150 euro.

blorg wrote: »

For training something like Planet X Model B or C would be a good choice, £125 or so + shipping.

Aren't both of those just as crap as what I currently have- Shimano WH- R550s?

niceonetom

lukester wrote: »

Aren't both of those just as crap as what I currently have- Shimano WH- R550s?

IMO nothing out there is as crap as those wheels. It's a bloody wonder of Japanese engineering that such heavy wheels can be so flexible.

DirkVoodoo

I actually really like my aksiums, yes they are ridiculously heavy, but after 1.5 years of riding over all sorts of terrain they have never needed truing, they still roll nicely and they don't look too bad.

But yes, it would not be much of an upgrade, although I think the 2010 ones are lighter again.

@Blorg: I would happily ride the aksiums all year and have a set of tubs for racing, so far the ksyrium is being used as a turbo wheel. Maybe it's a case of the aksiums being at the limit of my ability. I know Raam certainly likes his ksyriums.

lukester

Hmm.. the more I mull this over, I realise all I really want for now is an all round wheel that's better- read stiffer - than my current wheels.

I also didn't realise that my budget was placing me in a kind of no-mans land between cheap training wheels and cheap fancy-ish wheels.

Meh. More chin-scratching beckons.

Lumen

Another vote for Planet-X alloy wheels - I have Model Bs and Cs they are well priced, seem well made and do the job.

The thing that really bothers me about Mavics is that they're spelt Aksium and Ksyrium and not Axiom and Sirium. If you're going to make up a name, at least spell it such that people have half a chance of pronouncing it right.

blorg

lukester wrote: »

Aren't both of those just as crap as what I currently have- Shimano WH- R550s?

I'm not sure I would "upgrade" from WH-R550s to Aksiums or Fulcrum 7s, they are the same sort of level wheel. The Planet X Model Bs are substantially lighter:

WH-R550 - 1840g
Planet X Model B - 1653g

Note I have never owned a set of Model Bs but there are good reports and difficult to complain about the weight for the price. I had Model Cs briefly before I sold them (as I have too many wheels) and the PX wheels on my new track bike also look very good.

But for training wheels specifically, do you have any major issues with your R550s?

blorg

lukester wrote: »

I also didn't realise that my budget was placing me in a kind of no-mans land between cheap training wheels and cheap fancy-ish wheels.

The wheel that jumps out at me most at the moment is the Dura-Ace WH7850 CL Carbon Laminate, just under £500 from CRC. Do it, you know you want to.

Chips Lovell

niceonetom wrote: »

IMO nothing out there is as crap as those wheels. It's a bloody wonder of Japanese engineering that such heavy wheels can be so flexible.

+1. Having witnessed how flexy those wheels were, I'd say there's a very big difference between them and Fulcrum R7 or Aksiums.

lukester

blorg wrote: »

But for training wheels specifically, do you have any major issues with your R550s?

2 issues. One, they flex a lot going uphill, thus leading to brake rub. Two, the rims are pretty worn, enough to make me want to change them.

The other factor is I'd like something a little bit better suited to racing. Even shelled out the back you want something that rolls nicely.

blorg wrote: »

The wheel that jumps out at me most at the moment is the Dura-Ace WH7850 CL Carbon Laminate, just under £500 from CRC. Do it, you know you want to.

Stop it. Besides, if I spend that kind of wedge I ain't going Japanese.

DirkVoodoo

Being Shimano I'm going to guess the RS550 use cup and cone bearings, have you checked the cones are tight and not loose? If there is play in the axle this could be what is causing the brake rub.

lescol

I have had PX model B's for the past year, they have done numerous sportives and bounced around Kerrys rural roads, they have been problem free, still true and smooth running, bit noisy when freewheeling though.

My 2003 Ksyriums are also excellent wheels, just repaired the rear with one of these:- http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/product-Mavic-Mavic-Threaded-Rim-Eyelet-for-Disc-Rims-12346.htm so in nearly 7 years they have cost me one spoke and one threaded eyelet.

If I was to need new wheels, at the moment I'd choose PX B's for their value for money. http://www.planet-x-warehouse.co.uk/acatalog/info_WPPXMODELB.html

lukester

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

Being Shimano I'm going to guess the RS550 use cup and cone bearings, have you checked the cones are tight and not loose? If there is play in the axle this could be what is causing the brake rub.

Pretty sure they're sealed bearings.
...
Google confirms this.

Besides, enough already, this isn't the fix it up and keep it forum. For shame. Goad me into spending on shiny baubles.

Chips Lovell

Hmmm, one set of wheels that will cover training and racing:

DT Swiss RR 585 rims (at 30mm, quite deep for alloy clincher rims): €116
Campagnolo Record hubs: €247

DirkVoodoo

Game, set and match.

Gotta say these look very nice. User reviews on roadbikereview are decidedly mixed but bikeradar gave them 4.5/5.

Just don't break any spokes and you should be fine.

blorg

Maybe worth consideration

DirkVoodoo

1650g for under 300 euro is pretty hard not to consider. If I were looking for an all round wheel it would probably be those. Good looking wheel too.

niceonetom

lukester wrote: »

Pretty sure they're sealed bearings.
...
Google confirms this.

Besides, enough already, this isn't the fix it up and keep it forum. For shame. Goad me into spending on shiny baubles.

They may be "sealed" but they're still cup'n'cone bearings, like all Shimano hubs (although shimano refer to them as "sealed angular contact bearings" to confuse people). I think I'd prefer a wheel with cartridge bearings for ease of change. Ceramic appeals to me.

el tonto wrote: »

Hmmm, one set of wheels that will cover training and racing:

DT Swiss RR 585 rims (at 30mm, quite deep for alloy clincher rims): €116
Campagnolo Record hubs: €247

Those rims are the old 1.2 under a new name and they look awesome. I have been thinking along those lines myself. I think you're showing your own weakness there on the hub choice. How about 1.2s on a nice Hope Pro 3 hub? They're made to order so it might be possible to specify spoke count and pattern. 24 2cross on the front, 28 3cross on the back. Silver spokes and rims on black hubs. ~£300 (+ costly delivery)

niceonetom

These are nearly as light as the ultegras, but I'd guess a bit more durable and (maybe) stiff given their spoke-count.

DirkVoodoo

niceonetom wrote: »

They may be "sealed" but they're still cup'n'cone bearings, like all Shimano hubs (although shimano refer to them as "sealed angular contact bearings" to confuse people). I think I'd prefer a wheel with cartridge bearings for ease of change. Ceramic appeals to me.

I am an expert on cup and cone right now, while I love my Felt the hubs are "no name" track hubs with cup and cone bearings. Front one is fine, rear one is an awful mess. I mentioned it to Blorg the other day, the axle is totally loose and the wheel rocks around in the drops, it's about as loose as a cheerleader on prom night.

I've tried tightening them, but every time I put the wheel back in and set the chain tension, they loosen up again. I even tried over tightening (bad I know) in the hope they would loosen up after installation.

I can definitely feel my rear wheel knocking around when I get out of the saddle.

Lukester, maybe just check the wheel when standing beside the bike. If it knocks around, take it off and check for play in the axle.

dave2pvd

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

I actually really like my aksiums, yes they are ridiculously heavy, but after 1.5 years of riding over all sorts of terrain they have never needed truing, they still roll nicely and they don't look too bad.

I can back this up. My Aksiums have been bomb-proof.

Here's my cyclist's wheel trifecta:

'09 Aksiums: used for CX and training.
'08 Ksyriums: criteriums and sometimes training.
'10 404 Clinchers: sold the '08 404 tubs and bought these. For TTs and some RRs.

I never want to use tubs again. Life is too short to mess with them.

2010 Ksyrium Elites came with my new Specialized (I eBay'd them). Pretty wheels, black rims with shiny graphics. To me, they seemed to be the reincarnation of the '08 Ksyrium. They're even the same weight. I would def consider them for both a training and racing wheel. My Ksyriums have been thru hell and back and still run true and spin smoothly. Of course, using a modern sealed bearing set helps with the spin part. Shimano on the other hand.....

....are still using el cheapo cup & cone (last I heard). The R500 & R550 are heavy and fragile. The 500's I used to ride let me down on many an occasion. I really wouldn't bother. My fondest memory of them was watching each one sail thru the air in a perfect arc before they landed in the trash heap that is our local landfill. Good times!

Chips Lovell

niceonetom wrote: »

Those rims are the old 1.2 under a new name and they look awesome. I have been thinking along those lines myself. I think you're showing your own weakness there on the hub choice. How about 1.2s on a nice Hope Pro 3 hub? They're made to order so it might be possible to specify spoke count and pattern. 24 2cross on the front, 28 3cross on the back. Silver spokes and rims on black hubs. ~£300 (+ costly delivery)

Why are hubs I've never heard of before better than Campag ones?

blorg

dave2pvd wrote: »

Shimano on the other hand..... ....are still using el cheapo cup & cone (last I heard).

Shimano use cup and cone on all their wheels right up to the most expensive Dura Ace ones. It's an engineering choice you may or may not agree with, not for cost reasons.

blorg

niceonetom wrote: »

These are nearly as light as the ultegras, but I'd guess a bit more durable and (maybe) stiff given their spoke-count.

I would Google "Dave Hinde" before buying those wheels.

niceonetom

blorg wrote: »

I would Google "Dave Hinde" before buying those wheels.

Fair enough. Steer clear.

It's more the recipe that I was attracted to than than the chef, if you get me. There are lots of wheel builders out there.

DirkVoodoo

Not necessarily for Lukester as I know you are sticking to a budget (never a good idea here!):

Mavic R-Sys SSC 671 euro from Wiggle

niceonetom

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

Not necessarily for Lukester as I know you are sticking to a budget (never a good idea here!):

Mavic R-Sys SSC 671 euro from Wiggle

I'm waiting until those wheels hit ~€100. Shouldn't be long now.

DirkVoodoo

niceonetom wrote: »

I'm waiting until those wheels hit ~€100. Shouldn't be long now.

Are you buying a lightweight set for La Marmotte?

Lumen

niceonetom wrote: »

I'm waiting until those wheels hit ~€100. Shouldn't be long now.

How much is your face worth?