Bank Thretens to go to Revenue

potsy11

I came acroos a very unusual incident last week. Perhaps this should be in business and not rant. It relates to my younger brother who in fairness is a bit green at the age of 22.

Backround: He got let go from his job last year. He has not been able to gt full time work here in Ireland but he managed to get involved with a dance group that were doing shows in europe. ( he trained as a dancer, no jokes please, and is national champion etc so quite good)

Anyway he is doing well out of it in terms of keeping busy. He will work 2-3 weeks on and then have maybe 2-3 weeks off aiting for the next show to happen (usually central europe). he gets paid cash and the money goes straight into his account. He is quite diligent and disciplined and spends very little so he saves alot of it (good for him). ANyway he went into the bank (one of the top two) last week to open a savings account so he could transfer money from his current account. He has saved about 5-6k. The lady at the counter suggested he speak with their Pensions advisor so he said ok. Que pensions guy. He obvioulsy asked where the money was coming from and if he had set up a company etc. My brother being quite green said that he had not but intended to make a declaration at the end of this year.

The pensions guy was quite pushy and my brother said he would like to go away and have a think about it. The pensions guy rearranged for him to come back later that day to get things sorted out. My brother rang the bank later that afternoon and cancelled the appointment as he did not want the pension and felt that he was being pushed into signing up (fair enough).

2 Days later the pension guy rang my brother back (he had now gone abroad to start a show, Poland) and informed my brother that he had been on the the revenue commissioners and infomred them of his position.

Can i ask, is it the banks policy to rat out their own customers if they dont sign up for their products? I mean its not as if the guy is earning tens of thousands. My brother intends to make a return at the end of year anyway but I think this treatment is a disgrace and would appreciate any feedback and opinions.

Thanks

Handsome Bob

Moved from R&R, apologies if I got the wrong forum, but it seems the OP needs some serious advice.

Jet Black

The pensions advisor is way out of line. He could loose his job or worse for this behavior. I would report him to the bank telling them what happened.

homer911

Thats absolutely disgraceful behaviour on behalf of the advisor and I'm pretty sure this would not be bank policy - its none of their business.

The adviser could easily have been spinning a yarn to guilt-trip your brother into signing - I'm glad he didn't

I hope he has the adviser's name - He should immediately write to the bank's complaints department. They are legally required to respond and resolve any complaint.

Its always a good idea to invest in a pension, but its also a good idea to save for a house deposit, car deposit, holiday etc. Your brother should have been referred to a Financial Adviser, who is required to assess his circumstances, and if appropriate to recommend products. If they recommend a product, they are required to state why they believe this is the right product for him. This is to prevent mis-selling!!

There is also a short cooling off period to let people change their minds.

stepbar

If you were found to be money laundering, he'd go to jail too as he told you that he was going to report you. He's well entitled to "rat" you up per se, but not entitled to tell you that he's doing same. It's then up to the authorities to investigate.

A muppet looking for a sale to scare you if you ask me.

Toots

He's would be obliged to report your brother to the revenue in this instance, as your brother stated that he would not be declaring his earnings to the revenue. However, the pensions advisor would not be the one who contacts the revenue, he would report his suspicions to a department in the bank, who would then decide if it was necessary to contact the revenue. And by telling your brother that he was reporting, he actually broke the law. 'Tipping off' can carry a heavy fine or up to five years in prison.

homer911

Toots* wrote: »

He's would be obliged to report your brother to the revenue in this instance, as your brother stated that he would not be declaring his earnings to the revenue. However, the pensions advisor would not be the one who contacts the revenue, he would report his suspicions to a department in the bank, who would then decide if it was necessary to contact the revenue. And by telling your brother that he was reporting, he actually broke the law. 'Tipping off' can carry a heavy fine or up to five years in prison.

The OP said that he intended to make a declaration at the end of the year, and I thought whistle blower rules only applied to AML?

potsy11

Toots* wrote: »

He's would be obliged to report your brother to the revenue in this instance, as your brother stated that he would not be declaring his earnings to the revenue. However, the pensions advisor would not be the one who contacts the revenue, he would report his suspicions to a department in the bank, who would then decide if it was necessary to contact the revenue. And by telling your brother that he was reporting, he actually broke the law. 'Tipping off' can carry a heavy fine or up to five years in prison.

Just to set the record straight. My brother has ever intention (as per OP) to make a declaration at the end of this year. With the amount that we are talking about I would doubt (after expenses) that there would be any tax to pay.

I have decided to get my brother to put down on paper the way everything went down and on his behalf I am going to request a meeting with the branch manager.

I feel very strongly about this and I am tempted to go public with it if I am not satisfied with the responses that I get.

Andymfinancial

you need to complain to the bank first. If your brother is going to declare the money whats the problem

potsy11

Andymfinancial wrote: »

you need to complain to the bank first. If your brother is going to declare the money whats the problem

If my brother had taken out a pension I don’t think this guy would have threatened him. What kind of mixed up world are we living in. The pension guy is all nice and happy and smiley and then turns on you because you wont give him business. That is no way to treat any client. Its called bullyboy tactics and its disgraceful.

If you spoke with my brother you would know immediately that he is a bit of a push over / green. He would not be business orientated at all. This ‘shark’ identified it and tried to push something on him that he did not want and then threatened him.....again no way to treat a client.
Rage building!!!

JJ

I was going to recommend that you check out the Pension Ombudsman but I just noticed that they only deal with cases of people who have pensions. You could contact the Financial Regulator FWIW if you don't get any joy from the bank.

faddius

Before reporting your compalint to any ombudsman (in this instance it would be the Financial Services Ombudsman) write a letter to the Complaints or Compliance manager of the bank.

In your letter set out as many facts (times, calls, persons involved, facts etc.) and also what you are requestin by way of resolution. In your letter do not be emotional and state rational facts. Ask them to explain the company's policy and summarise the staff member's actions. Request that they issue a written response. The letter should be from your brother as they will not discuss the issue with you.

When they write back to you and if you are not satisfied with their response, write back to them and highlight what your greivance is and request their official Final Response Letter. The bank is then obliged to write to you setting out fully their response to your complaint.

Once you recieve the final response letter you may then refer the compalint to the FSO for investigation. The FSO will decide if the bank acted outside its policies and procedure or statutory obligations.

In accordance with the CJA 1994 as amended the teller would be obliged to report suspicious transactions to the Firm's Money Laundering Reporting Officer who would evaluate and decide whetheer or not to make a Suspicious Transaction Report to the Gardai AND Revenue.

However no one from the bank should have "tipped off" your brother as this would prejudice any investigation. So with this in mind the employee was incorrect to tell your brother of any report made. However whether or not he was right to discuss the actions of your brother with the MLRO and wheter any report was made subsequently are irrelevant to you as this is a statutory obligation of the Bank to adhere to.

Toots

potsy11 wrote: »

Just to set the record straight. My brother has ever intention (as per OP) to make a declaration at the end of this year. With the amount that we are talking about I would doubt (after expenses) that there would be any tax to pay.

I have decided to get my brother to put down on paper the way everything went down and on his behalf I am going to request a meeting with the branch manager.

I feel very strongly about this and I am tempted to go public with it if I am not satisfied with the responses that I get.

Apologies for that, I misread your OP, however he only had your brother's word to go on that he would be making a declaration at the end of the year, and since the money was going into a personal account, it would still have been prudent to make a report to the bank's Anti-Money Laundering Department, and let them have a look. They may have decided to note the report, and take no further action, or they may have tipped off the Revenue. The branches generally do not find out what (if anything) happens to individuals once the report is sent. The obligation is on them to report, nothing more.

I would urge you not go public with it until your brother has submitted a written complaint and it has been fully investigated. I'm sure the Ombudsman would not look too favourably on it if you went to Joe Duffy (love that man :rolleyes:) and discussed an ongoing case.

The OP said that he intended to make a declaration at the end of the year, and I thought whistle blower rules only applied to AML?

If you're sending up a report of a 'Suspicious Transaction' it can be because you suspect the customer is moneylaundering, but it could also be if they state to you that they are being paid cash in hand. What I've always been told, and the general guideline I'd give others is, if you're suspicious then report it. The AML department will decide if it needs to go further.

tenchi-fan

Hi, can you tell me the name of the bank (pm if you like)? just wondering if it's the same one I work for.

The adviser is an idiot and hopefully he will get a slap on the wrists over this, maybe even be demoted. As faddius pointed out there are money laundering procedures which need to be followed if the bank suspects tax evasion.

I don't think organisations are required to have a MLRO (Money Laundering Reporting Officer) but if they do it will be a senior person in the organisation and not a snotty staff member. Banks will definitely have a MLRO. It is the MLROs responsibility to report it to the revenue commissioners. So at the very least the adviser breached internal controls by going directly to the revenue commissioners - but this isn't exactly an offence.

Tipping off on the other hand is a HUGE deal!! The fact that the adviser didn't realise this is an absolute disgrace and it will get him into a lot of trouble.

You should write a letter of complaint and send it directly to customer service.

Specify the embarrassment and annoyance it caused you. Say how unprofessional you were treated. Say that you felt the financial adviser was attempting to blackmail your brother into taking out products.

State clearly that you were shocked that the adviser took it upon himself to contact revenue and subsequently "tipped off" your brother - and ask whether this was their usual procedure.

And warn them that unless a satisfactory response is received that you will be reporting this matter to the financial regulator.

amdublin

potsy11 wrote: »

He has saved about 5-6k. The lady at the counter suggested he speak with their Pensions advisor so he said ok. Que pensions guy. He obvioulsy asked where the money was coming from and if he had set up a company etc. My brother being quite green said that he had not but intended to make a declaration at the end of this year.

The pensions guy was quite pushy and my brother said he would like to go away and have a think about it. The pensions guy rearranged for him to come back later that day to get things sorted out. My brother rang the bank later that afternoon and cancelled the appointment as he did not want the pension and felt that he was being pushed into signing up (fair enough).

2 Days later the pension guy rang my brother back (he had now gone abroad to start a show, Poland) and informed my brother that he had been on the the revenue commissioners and infomred them of his position.

Can i ask, is it the banks policy to rat out their own customers if they dont sign up for their products? I mean its not as if the guy is earning tens of thousands. My brother intends to make a return at the end of year anyway but I think this treatment is a disgrace and would appreciate any feedback and opinions.

Thanks

As far as I can see your brother has done nothing illegal and is not evading tax. He is earning money at the moment and intends to doing a tax return at the end of the year.

Maybe we are jumping the gun here assuming the advisor "ratted" him out??? From what I can see there is nothing to "rat" him out on.

Maybe the advisor just informed Revenue that this was the position and was the client eligible for a personal pension and henceforth tax credits etc currently?

Now, I would be of the opinion that he still should not have gone to Revenue querying even that without clarifying with your brother first. BUT be careful with the approach you take with the bank when complaining (which I do think your brother should do) and just find out the full facts here first.

Just a thought! I've highlighted some items above which I think are pertinent.

Loopie

Just a thought, I believe phonecalls are recorded for "training and monitoring purposes" so if you include details of date and time of call, it might be of some assistance to you (manner and exact wording used by the pensions guy).

Loopie

tenchi-fan

Loopie wrote: »

Just a thought, I believe phonecalls are recorded for "training and monitoring purposes" so if you include details of date and time of call, it might be of some assistance to you (manner and exact wording used by the pensions guy).

Loopie

That's only for customer service calls. I doubt they record outbound calls from the branch.

Toots

tenchifan wrote: »

That's only for customer service calls. I doubt they record outbound calls from the branch.

That's right, if you ring the call centres or they ring you, the call is recorded. In most cases the first thing they'll say to you, other than hello etc, it that the call is being recorded.

chris85

Toots* wrote: »

That's right, if you ring the call centres or they ring you, the call is recorded. In most cases the first thing they'll say to you, other than hello etc, it that the call is being recorded.

most calls aint recorded. It always says calls may be recorded or monitored. They only do so the odd time or if a manager wants to listen in to see how an employee is doing. Otherwise they dont bother recording. This is from my experience anyways.

tenchi-fan

chris85 wrote: »

most calls aint recorded. It always says calls may be recorded or monitored. They only do so the odd time or if a manager wants to listen in to see how an employee is doing. Otherwise they dont bother recording. This is from my experience anyways.

not true. the financial services company I work in, ALL customer service calls are recorded. There are hundreds of calls a day all saved as mp3s. I'm not sure how long they're saved for but I reckon a few years if not indefinitely. Some are used for training, but the main reason for saving all calls is that if a customer turns around and claims they were given wrong info the call can be listened to.

Toots

chris85 wrote: »

most calls aint recorded. It always says calls may be recorded or monitored. They only do so the odd time or if a manager wants to listen in to see how an employee is doing. Otherwise they dont bother recording. This is from my experience anyways.

I think it must depend on the bank then. I know all inbound/outbound calls from BOI call centres are recorded. The recordings are kept for quite a while too, had one case where a customer claimed they'd been told one thing (that they could just walk in off the street and withdraw €60k in cash) by the call centre and kicked up a stink when the branch staff said he wasn't able to do what he said he was told he could. We rang the call centre, and even though it was about 2 months since the alleged call took place, they were able to listen to it and prove that the call centre operator never said what the customer claimed they did.

jimoc

Toots* wrote: »

I think it must depend on the bank then. I know all inbound/outbound calls from BOI call centres are recorded. The recordings are kept for quite a while too, had one case where a customer claimed they'd been told one thing (that they could just walk in off the street and withdraw €60k in cash) by the call centre and kicked up a stink when the branch staff said he wasn't able to do what he said he was told he could. We rang the call centre, and even though it was about 2 months since the alleged call took place, they were able to listen to it and prove that the call centre operator never said what the customer claimed they did.

Totally off the topic I knew, but if a customer gave prior notice that they wanted this much cash, can they actually withdraw it or is there a limit?

Just out of curiousity I dont have 60K in my account, yet

Toots

The branch would probably try to talk them into taking a draft instead, it's not safe to carry that kinda cash around obviously. If you were insisting they would have to give it to you, but you'd want to be giving about a weeks notice. Depending on the branch they might have to order in extra cash specially.

100gSoma

ALL phone calls to telephone banking numbers are recorded. Otherwise what proof is there of instructions given to the bank? You would not be able to make any changes to your account, send money, change limits, request OD etc.
The recording serves as a formal request from you, a person who has just answered security questions and confirmed their identity before issuing (or requesting information) instructions to the bank regarding their account.