Is the illusion of human free will...

cleremy jarkson

..something that we should ignore to ensure the sanity of the general population?

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

The frack?

Helix

ignore that it is an illusion, or ignore the illusion itself?

GLaDOS

cleremy jarkson wrote: »

..something that we should ignore to ensure the sanity of the general population?

Sanity is an illusion.

Guess you're ****ed now, eh?

cleremy jarkson

...like should we pretend that the laws of physics don't dictate that we can only ever think/ act/ bahave in one way (there is only one set of physical laws, after all and our bodies are compsed of matter which is subjct to the laws of physics) because if we acknowledge for any length of time that, objectively, we are biological robots acting in a deterministic fashion in accoradance with the laws of physics, we will see that nothing we do is, ultimately as result of our own efforts. In fact, we will begin to see that the concept of a self is an utter illusion.


Anyways, basically what I mean to say is that athiesam is childsplay and not that depressing.
Giving up belief in human "free-will" is the ultimate rejection of irrational belief.

cleremy jarkson

Helix wrote: »

ignore that it is an illusion, or ignore the illusion itself?

Ignore the fact that what we consider to be our "free choice" actually occurs as a result of a mechanical deterministic brain process that results from the continuous chain of cause-and-effect which has occured since time immemorial. Even if you become the most respectable human being ever; you were always going to become that...so who gives a fcuk.

Victor

Rather high brow for AH? And for the hour of the morning?

And while there may be some predetermination, we can still choose between the red pill and the blue pill.

cleremy jarkson

Victor wrote: »

Rather high brow for AH? And for the hour of the morning?

And while there may be some predetermination, we can still choose between the red pill and the blue pill.

yeah, but the choice that we choose is predetermined.

itsallaboutheL

so in essence the question you're asking is why shouldn't i fuck myself off a cliff??

cleremy jarkson

itsallaboutheL wrote: »

so in essence the question you're asking is why shouldn't i fuck myself off a cliff??

No.

I just want you to realise that your life is only going in one direction. "but no" you say. "what if i make an extremely strange decision after reading this thread, to join the navy and drown myself while torching my boat to flames".
Well no, you seieng this thread occured as result of deterministic events and you acting as you do occurs deterministically

When you die of a specific disease...it was always going to happen.

Turtwig

OP,

What exactly are you arguing here, quantum mysticism? Predetermination? Reality is an illusion? I'm sorry but you're going to have to clarify as I say many boardsies (it is six a.m) are scratching their head right about now.

itsallaboutheL

cleremy jarkson wrote: »

No.

I just want you to realise that your life is only going in one direction. "but no" you say. "what if i make an extremely strange decision after reading this thread, to join the navy and drown myself while torching my boat to flames".
Well no, you seieng this thread occured as result of deterministic events and you acting as you do occurs deterministically

When you die of a specific disease...it was always going to happen.

Chaos Theory, big fcuking whoop....

It's all about gratification, i couldn't care less about wether i can control the direction i go, providing the ride is a good laugh.

Turtwig

itsallaboutheL wrote: »

Chaos Theory, big fcuking whoop....

It's all about gratification, i couldn't care less about wether i can control the direction i go, providing the ride is a good laugh.

Eh? Chaos Theory still relies on a deterministic system, afaik.

itsallaboutheL

Malty_T wrote: »

Eh? Chaos Theory still relies on a deterministic system, afaik.

what's your point?

Turtwig

itsallaboutheL wrote: »

what's your point?

Apologies I completely misread your post.

Anyways, you have complete control over which way you go just not the environment you steer yourself in (which would be part of a chaotic system. ). I'm gonna grab some coffee.
*needs to wake up*

magma69

cleremy jarkson wrote: »

Ignore the fact that what we consider to be our "free choice" actually occurs as a result of a mechanical deterministic brain process that results from the continuous chain of cause-and-effect which has occured since time immemorial. Even if you become the most respectable human being ever; you were always going to become that...so who gives a fcuk.

But aren't the sub atomic particles that make up our brain also part of quantum theory and as far as we know behave randomly and are not predetermined.

Rabies

itsallaboutheL wrote: »

what's your point?

There is no spoon

galwayrush

Freewill is a classic rock song.:cool:

TheZohanS

cleremy jarkson wrote: »

No.

I just want you to realise that your life is only going in one direction. "but no" you say. "what if i make an extremely strange decision after reading this thread, to join the navy and drown myself while torching my boat to flames".
Well no, you seieng this thread occured as result of deterministic events and you acting as you do occurs deterministically

When you die of a specific disease...it was always going to happen.

Someone's been watching Flash Forward.

MaybeLogic

cleremy jarkson wrote: »

...like should we pretend that the laws of physics don't dictate that we can only ever think/ act/ bahave in one way (there is only one set of physical laws, after all and our bodies are compsed of matter which is subjct to the laws of physics) because if we acknowledge for any length of time that, objectively, we are biological robots acting in a deterministic fashion in accoradance with the laws of physics, we will see that nothing we do is, ultimately as result of our own efforts. In fact, we will begin to see that the concept of a self is an utter illusion.


Anyways, basically what I mean to say is that athiesam is childsplay and not that depressing.
Giving up belief in human "free-will" is the ultimate rejection of irrational belief.

There is not one set of physical laws.
There is deterministic Newtonian mechanics and there is the much trickier Quantum physics,where one enters the realm of probabilities and encounters the 'Measurement Problem',chief intepretation of which is that the very act observation of particles has an effect on the outcome. Bear that in mind (or read a book called Quantum Psychology for more).
Determinism in human behaviour extends only as far in that one acts according to ones conditioning.Imprints from childhood on will determine ones emotional reactons to events and determine the physical actions one takes in loops that repeat themselves throughout a persons life. Like programming a computer (we all have the same hardware brain/neurological system and the software consists of the data one receives from childhood on. These include your family environment,schooling ,religious teaching, anything really but each of which will effect how you behave in under certain conditions).
For example the culture which one inhabits is an obvious one. You could download an Irish Catholic Nationalist or an Ulster Protestant Unionist. Or an Israeli Zionist or be born into a Palestinian Hamas family. These downloads will then have deterministic outcomes in terms of ones physical and emotional behaviours. This extends to all of the data that is downloaded into a humans mind and in conjunction with the hardware covers all levels and aspects of human behaviour.
One can enter a world of choice if one frees oneself from the shackles of ones conditioning and enter the realm of Quantum Psychology.

itsallaboutheL

MaybeLogic wrote: »

There is not one set of physical laws.
There is deterministic Newtonian mechanics and there is the much trickier Quantum physics,where one enters the realm of probabilities and encounters the 'Measurement Problem',chief intepretation of which is that the act observation of particles has an effect on the outcome. Bear that in mind (or read a book called Quantum Psychology for more).
Determinism in human behaviour extends only as far in that one acts according to ones conditioning.Imprints from childhood on will determine ones emotional reactons to events and determine the physical actions one takes in loops that repeat themselves throughout a persons life. Like programming a computer (we all have the same hardware brain/neurological system and the software consists of the data one receives from childhood on. These include your family environment,schooling ,religious teaching, anything really but each of which will effect how you behave in under certain conditions).
For example the culture which one inhabits is an obvious one. You could download an Irish Catholic Nationalist or an Ulster Protestant Unionist. Or an Israeli Zionist or be born into a Palestinian Hamas family. These downloads will then have deterministic outcomes in terms of ones physical and emotional behaviours. This extends to all of the data that is downloaded into a humans mind and in conjunction with the hardware covers all levels of human behaviour.
One can enter a world of choice if one frees oneself from the shackles of ones conditioning and enter the realm of Quantum Psychology.

TL; Shot self in head

biko

cleremy jarkson wrote: »

Is the illusion of human free will...
..something that we should ignore to ensure the sanity of the general population?

We have free will, it's not an illusion. Your point is moot.

Turtwig

Magnus wrote: »

We have free will, it's not an illusion. Your point is moot.

Some would argue that we don't.:)

Some would argue that we do.

Eitherway, it makes for interesting readings.
*Grab a cup of tea or coffee first.

Wazdakka

Another damn art student wanting help with a paper..
Get your own bloody degree OP!


Unless that is you credit the entire paper to the posters of After Hours?
Remember for the Bibliography, there are two K's in Wazdakka :cool:

Turtwig

Wazdakka wrote: »

Another damn art student wanting help with a paper..
Get your own bloody degree OP!


Unless that is you credit the entire paper to the posters of After Hours?
Remember for the Bibliography, there are two K's in Wazdakka :cool:

Malty, will do fine.:)

MissIT

So your saying I was always going to be sitting here this morning eating nutella from the jar with a spoon and all my weeks of trying to eat healthy was pointless?

If i died from say cancer, you believe I was always going to die from cancer?
I understand that i can't choose not to get cancer but that doesn't mean it was predetermined that I was going to die from cancer. I could choose to live until the cancer kills me or I could choose to take my own life.

I don't really understand your point properly but I hope there is such a thing as free choice. I can't really see a point to life without free choice.

Dave!

Ultimately it doesn't really matter whether free will exists objectively -- subjectively, everyone feels as though they have control over their lives.

Similarly, the maternal urge to look after and love their child is likely to be largely resulting from (or certainly influenced by) a hormone called Oxytocin. But that doesn't mean that the bond isn't real to the mother and child.

FWIW I don't believe that everything is determined, but I do think that consciousness is an 'illusion' resulting from complex interactions between various psychological faculties. It's probably true to an extent that actions and reactions are largely predictable if we know a person's genetic makeup, and if we get to understand genetics in more detail.

I seem to recall a study in humans to see how they respond to stressful events in life. The presence or absense of a single gene seemed to regulate how depressed the subject becomes in similar circumstances.

RedDragonJack

MissIT wrote: »

So your saying I was always going to be sitting here this morning eating nutella from the jar with a spoon and all my weeks of trying to eat healthy was pointless?

If i died from say cancer, you believe I was always going to die from cancer?
I understand that i can't choose not to get cancer but that doesn't mean it was predetermined that I was going to die from cancer. I could choose to live until the cancer kills me or I could choose to take my own life.

I don't really understand your point properly but I hope there is such a thing as free choice. I can't really see a point to life without free choice.

You could choose to live in a country were cancer cases are low and adapt their lifestyle. like africa.

Bonito

cleremy jarkson wrote: »

yeah, but the choice that we choose is predetermined.

Basically do we believe in "faith" or "destiny" or "it was supposed to happen"

That sorta jazz? Meh. I make my own decisions thank you. Whether I have already made them I don't care because in the end it's myself that has the overall say in what happens with my "destiny".

_Faithless_

There is no freedom in the modern world.

Your dependence on technology has secured your number as a slave to the system.

I want to live with the ancient Inca's, running around naked and eating bugs. Ah, the good life.

MaybeLogic

Neurologically it's been proven there is no free will.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Libet

funk-you

cleremy jarkson wrote: »

..something that we should ignore to ensure the sanity of the general population?

It's all just water man...

Put down the jib, turn off Evanescence, wash you're hands and go outside.

-Funk

strobe

MaybeLogic wrote: »

Neurologically it's been proven there is no free will.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Libet

But the Libet experiment (which is far from conclusive) suggests that we have the ability to cancel out actions, "free unwill" which amounts to the same thing as free will, so that's not really a good example.

Bit of a coincidence (there are no coincidences?) that this thread happened to come up, I've been thinking about this for the last few weeks and looking into it. Started a couple of threads aswell in other forums.

Basically no one knows, physics seem to suggest things about free will and determinism but it's all completely untestable and therfore really falls under the heading of philosophy rather than physics. The general consensus (god I hate that phrase) seems to be that the determinism probably exists, true randomness/unpredictability probably does aswell and depending on your interpretation your consciousness might go on forever and therfore there might be some form of an afterlife. I'm an atheist/agnostic (both the same thing really) but I'm always baffled at why religious people don't study up on fringe quantum physics and apply it to there arguments for "God" or an afterlife.

Free will? If determinism exists in the universe it can't exist and if we knew all the hidden variables we could predict what was to come but that relies on the presumption that are guesses on what the universe is and how it functions are correct, maybe the hidden variables would blow all our understandings apart. I'm of the opinion that we should always try to answer these questions but we never will because like other concepts like infinity we are just incapable of contemplating them. Is a shame really, so in the meantime I'm just going to take drugs , have sex, listen to music, eat Papa John's pizza's and enjoy the ride.

FUNKY LOVER

if you think about it,if someone is an arsehole or murders someone,its just the way their brain is made up,they cant actually help been an arsehole because its the way they are.so are they to blame?

phasers

Your name is sort of like Jeremy Clarkson

mardybumbum

There is no such thing as free will. Everything we do, from scratching our arse to deciding what to have for dinner is predetermined.
Mere consequences of previous events.

Now should I have that curry or spaghetti?

4zn76tysfajdxp

cleremy jarkson wrote: »

..something that we should ignore to ensure the sanity of the general population?

Relax guy, listen to some music.

Pygmalion

cleremy jarkson wrote: »

..something that we should ignore to ensure the sanity of the general population?

You're saying that we have no free will, and are asking our opinion on what to do, as in how to exercise our free will.

I would point out the stupidity of that, but sure it's not like you had a choice but to post it, what with the lack of free will.

cleremy jarkson

Pygmalion wrote: »

You're saying that we have no free will, and are asking our opinion on what to do, as in how to exercise our free will.

I would point out the stupidity of that, but sure it's not like you had a choice but to post it, what with the lack of free will.

Hmm, yes, talk sarcasticaly and maybe you can convince yourself that your will is uncaused....because, suprise suprise, that's the least depressing option so it has to be correct!!

:rolleyes:

4zn76tysfajdxp

cleremy jarkson wrote: »

Hmm, yes, talk sarcasticaly and maybe you can convince yourself that your will is uncaused....because, suprise suprise, that's the least depressing option so it has to be correct!!

:rolleyes:

Now you're speaking sarcastically trying to show him up. :eek: My head! MY HEADDDD!!!!!

*Ka-fucking-boom*

dioltas

cleremy jarkson wrote: »

.

(there is only one set of physical laws, after all and our bodies are compsed of matter which is subjct to the laws of physics) because if we acknowledge for any length of time that, objectively, we are biological robots acting in a deterministic fashion in accoradance with the laws of physics, we will see that nothing we do is, ultimately as result of our own efforts. In fact, we will begin to see that the concept of a self is an utter illusion.

Quantum Mechanics?

The laws of physics are made by man, they are based on what we observe.
We don't really know **** about how the universe works or matter. And we also know very little about how the brain works really. So how can you say that you know free will does not exist?
I don't know, and I'm not going to worry about it tbh.

mardybumbum

Pygmalion wrote: »

You're saying that we have no free will, and are asking our opinion on what to do, as in how to exercise our free will.

I would point out the stupidity of that, but sure it's not like you had a choice but to post it, what with the lack of free will.

In all fairness, his post was far from stupid.
You may think that you made a choice when you decided to post that comment but in reality you (probably) didn't make a choice at all.

AH probably isn't the place to discuss this.
Perhaps the psychology forum is more appropriate.

J K

Maybe we can learn from History. I think it was William Wallace who said
"They can take our lives, but they can't take our freedom..
..What will you do for freedom?"

Peggypeg

cleremy jarkson wrote: »

...like should we pretend that the laws of physics don't dictate that we can only ever think/ act/ bahave in one way (there is only one set of physical laws, after all and our bodies are compsed of matter which is subjct to the laws of physics) because if we acknowledge for any length of time that, objectively, we are biological robots acting in a deterministic fashion in accoradance with the laws of physics, we will see that nothing we do is, ultimately as result of our own efforts. In fact, we will begin to see that the concept of a self is an utter illusion.


Anyways, basically what I mean to say is that athiesam is childsplay and not that depressing.
Giving up belief in human "free-will" is the ultimate rejection of irrational belief.

See now, I'll admit you've lost me a wee bit. I thought free will means basically we choose to do what we want. And the fact we're individuals and we exist "I think, therefore I am", means that each of our realities is slightly different and so we are not all governed by physics, we choose which path, granted physics means we can't fly or whatever, but I definately don't think we are governed by physics. Everything we do is a result of our own efforts, we choose from the bizillions of paths physics has allowed us. I think what you're really asking is "Is everything we do futile?"

cleremy jarkson

Hmm. I find it typical that whenever a thread turns up in AH questioning the existence of God or talking about athiesm, we see a massive influx of people wanting to tell each other how stupid belief in God is but that when the much more depressing topic of free-will and determinism turns up, hardly anyone will vouch for the idea that maybe its an illusion. You people cherry pick your so-called logical beliefs.

cleremy jarkson

Peggypeg wrote: »

but I definately don't think we are governed by physics.

Why?

Dave!

cleremy jarkson wrote: »

Hmm. I find it typical that whenever a thread turns up in AH questioning the existence of God or talking about athiesm, we see a massive influx of people wanting to tell each other how stupid belief in God is but that when the much more depressing topic of free-will and determinism turns up, hardly anyone will vouch for the idea that maybe its an illusion. You people cherry pick your so-called logical beliefs.

I think the fact that the topic of 'free will' is still being debated among scientists, and we still have loads to learn about the brain before the matter is resolved, would account for many people's reluctance to take a position.

MaybeLogic

cleremy jarkson wrote: »

Why?

It's your thread. Should you not be convincing us?
The existence of the ego and the rationalising that takes place in the cortex would make the idea that there's no free will a hard pill for most to swallow. As the OP ,it's up to you to persuade people otherwise.

tech77

*sits back smugly and contemplates the inevitable way this thread played out.

*Chuckles to self (albeit deterministically).

cleremy jarkson

MaybeLogic wrote: »

It's your thread. Should you not be convincing us?
The existence of the ego and the rationalising that takes place in the cortex would make the idea that there's no free will a hard pill for most to swallow. As the OP ,it's up to you to persuade people otherwise.

Ah I couldn't be arsed, but I suggest people think about it for themselves and read up on it!

I'm sorry but my brain and thought processes are paralysed at the minute

dioltas

cleremy jarkson wrote: »

Hmm. I find it typical that whenever a thread turns up in AH questioning the existence of God or talking about athiesm, we see a massive influx of people wanting to tell each other how stupid belief in God is but that when the much more depressing topic of free-will and determinism turns up, hardly anyone will vouch for the idea that maybe its an illusion. You people cherry pick your so-called logical beliefs.

Ah it's definitely a possibility. All I'm saying is we don't really have any way to know. It's about as ridiculous saying that free will can't exist as saying that it definitely does...