Digital reception with no video

Gagetman

Can anyone help? I recently bought a new tv with a digital and analog tuner built in. I am connected to a roof aerial and I recieve the 4 irish channels perfectly in analog format. I also recieve the 4 irish channels in digital format complete with epg except for one thing video, sound is perfect. Can anyone tell me if I can get the picture going?
Regards
Gagetman

STB

Gagetman wrote: »

Can anyone help? I recently bought a new tv with a digital and analog tuner built in. I am connected to a roof aerial and I recieve the 4 irish channels perfectly in analog format. I also recieve the 4 irish channels in digital format complete with epg except for one thing video, sound is perfect. Can anyone tell me if I can get the picture going?
Regards
Gagetman

MPEG2 vs MPEG4. The digital tuner is not suitable for Ireland.

What make and model is it ?

The Cush

Your digital tv only has an MPEG-2 video decoder, Irish DTT uses MPEG-4 therefore sound and no video.

Gagetman

The tv is a sony, model is 40s550. I bought it ilocally so I would imagine it should have been set up for the Irish system during manufacture, or not?? Why sell a tv to a market where it will not work correctly

Domscard

Gagetman wrote: »

The tv is a sony, model is 40s550. I bought it ilocally so I would imagine it should have been set up for the Irish system during manufacture, or not?? Why sell a tv to a market where it will not work correctly

Go back to the retailer and challenge them - you are quite right, they should not have sold you a TV that is not fit to receive Irish DTT.

snaps

Domscard wrote: »

Go back to the retailer and challenge them - you are quite right, they should not have sold you a TV that is not fit to receive Irish DTT.

I agree, we are going to hear a lot more of this, people buying tv's thinking they can receive Irish DTT. Its a right mess.

The Cush

Gagetman wrote: »

The tv is a sony, model is 40s550. I bought it ilocally so I would imagine it should have been set up for the Irish system during manufacture, or not?? Why sell a tv to a market where it will not work correctly

Did the retailer advertise the product as being compatible with the future Irish DTT service? If not, you don't have a case. Caveat emptor.

The problem is that the Irish DTT service has not officially launched, the tv is fit for purpose - that is to receive Irish analogue tv, the digital part of the tv is for DTT services in other countries.

Sony TVs normally carry a sticker with logos of DTT services in other countries where the digital part of the television has been approved e.g. freeview (UK), TNT (France), TDT (Spain) etc.

There is no list of approved products that carry an Irish DTT compatibility logo at the moment. This warning is carried on a number of websites. Saorview will be the Irish FTA DTT logo.

There is no definitive launch date for a DTT service in Ireland as yet. This is a matter for RTÉ (www.rte.ie) and the Broadcasting Commission of Ireland (www.bci.ie) to determine.

...

Currently there are no approved STBs or iDTVs available for the Irish market. Approved equipment will be available in advance of the launch of the service.
Please note that the vast majority of UK "Freeview" boxes and iDTVs will not work on the Irish DTT service when it is launched.

...

Under no circumstances should the (current) test transmissions be considered an operational service.

http://www.rtenl.ie/dtt.htm

Information on DTT Receivers

Currently there are no DTT receivers ( set top boxes, PVR's or televisions) which are approved for use on the RTÉ DTT network. RTÉ has developed a specification for Irish DTT receivers. A copy of this specification is available from the RTÉNL website, http://www.rtenl.ie/. RTÉ is also in the process of finalising a testing regime and certification process so that DTT receivers suitable for use in Ireland will be clearly labelled.

The latest information on DTT receivers is available from RTÉ and the BAI.

Warning:

There are some digital televisions for sale in Ireland which are marked “Freeview”, have the UK’s “digital tick” logo http://www.digitallogo.co.uk/) or are marked as being suitable for use in other European Countries. This means that they are compatible with DTT systems in the UK or elsewhere in Europe. There are no televisions currently approved for use on the Irish DTT network.

http://www.digitaltelevision.ie/National+DTT/

10. I have a DVB-T will this pick up digital television in Ireland?

In Ireland there is no digital terrestrial television (DTT) service in place at present. This means that any televisions currently on the market in Ireland must be capable of operating on the analogue television network only. The specifications for digital televisions vary from country to country so a digital television which receives digital services in one country may not work in another country. It is likely that digital televisions for the Irish market will become available when digital terrestrial television services are introduced.

In the event that your television does not work to receive DTT signals directly, once DTT services become available, you will need to purchase a DTT set top box or a PVR to upgrade the television to receive the Irish DTT services.

11. I have purchased a “Freeview” digital television; will this pick up digital television in Ireland?

Televisions marked “Freeview” or marked with the UK digital “tick” logo ( http://www.digitallogo.co.uk/) are intended to operate on the UK DTT (Freeview) service. They use a different technology than that proposed for the Irish DTT services.

If you have a “freeview” TV, a TV with the UK digital “tick” logo or a traditional analogue TV you will also need a set top box if you wish to view the Irish DTT services, once they become available.

http://www.digitaltelevision.ie/Frequent+Questions/

Domscard

I agree that the OP's retailer was likely to have been legally covered by selling him/her a TV that will not receive Irish DTT but they are certainly exploiting their customers by denying them the chance to receive full value from their purchase. The fact is that most people can already receive DTT and the retailer in question knows this - it is cynical in the extreme IMO.
I still feel that the OP should challenge this retailer and, in the event of not getting any satisfaction, should make sure to tell everyone he/she knows about this lack of integrity/dishonesty. These kinds of things come back to bite retailers in the bum - if I was hard done by in circumstances like this I would never trust said retailer to supply me with anything ever again.

The Cush

Domscard wrote: »

The fact is that most people can already receive DTT and the retailer in question knows this - it is cynical in the extreme IMO.

Many retailers simply don't have a clue (MPEG-2, MPEG-4, MHEG-5, DTT, iDTV, etc, etc.) - this is down to the lack of information from the authorities, the failure to have an approved DTT logo and the abundance of freeview TVs.

Gagetman

Thanks for all your replys. From reading through them I have come to the conclusion that I don't think I have a case.I have checked the tv and box and there is no indication of irish digital reception. The only logo is DVB. Also as the service has not been officially launched in Ireland it would be difficult to complain about not getting something that is not there yet even though I can get sound and epg.
I would like to think though that when the service is launched that any recievers that were bought in good faith would be able to get an upgrade instead of having to get another set top box or tv. This could done simply by a software upgrade which could be done over the transmission network.

The Cush

Gagetman wrote: »

I would like to think though that when the service is launched that any recievers that were bought in good faith would be able to get an upgrade instead of having to get another set top box or tv. This could done simply by a software upgrade which could be done over the transmission network.

MPEG-2 and MPEG-4 are hardware, not possible with a software upgrade.

Some posters previously mentioned an MPEG-4 to MPEG-2 module which inserts into the CI slot on digital TVs, from Neotion, works on some tvs not others. Do a search or maybe someone can post some info if they have used it.

Did you purchace the TV in Limerick and if so where?

STB

Gagetman wrote: »

Thanks for all your replys. From reading through them I have come to the conclusion that I don't think I have a case.I have checked the tv and box and there is no indication of irish digital reception. The only logo is DVB. Also as the service has not been officially launched in Ireland it would be difficult to complain about not getting something that is not there yet even though I can get sound and epg.
I would like to think though that when the service is launched that any recievers that were bought in good faith would be able to get an upgrade instead of having to get another set top box or tv. This could done simply by a software upgrade which could be done over the transmission network.

Excuse me but you do have a case.

This is a consumer issue. You are quite obviously the consumer. CEDA (the representative body for electrical retailers) were written to by the Dept of Communications over a year ago telling them the minimum spec for Irish Digital Terrestrial with a request to some stock suitable products.

The technology required is most certainly NOT MPEG2 digital TVs and never will be (this technology is infact used by our neighbours in the UK). These type TVs are and have been legacy TVs since the spec was announced. These MPEG2 digital tuners are redundant and serve no purpose in Rep of Ireland. The same way branded Freeview products have no place in Ireland as a whole. Regardless of a DTT logo or Saorview logo the basic spec is known.

IF your expectation was to receive Irish DTT, then your purchase does not meet that expectation. It still wont work in 1/2 years time when analogue is gone (that is an unreasonable shelf life). Bring it back now. You are not satisfied, It is not fit for your purposes or anyone wishing to recive digital terrestrial television. You require a TV with an tuner capable of decoding MPEG4 encoded signals. Any decent retailer should facilitate you.

There are a multitude of compatiable TVs on the Irish market for this purpose - I suggest you look at the sticky above to educate yourself in that regard when bringing it back to swap.

Do not depend on retailers. Most would sell their own grannies to make a sale, some are just incompetent whilst others are happy to sell outdated, old, obsolete, non compatiable, irrelevant technology that is conveniently shipped in from the warehouses in the UK.

It is their business to advise. If they dont know what they are selling, they wont last in business too long.

To say that its not a full service etc is a cop out. Its been on to 75% of the country for the last year and a half. It is desrcibed as engineering tests due to that 75% figure but the reality of the situation is that given the current economic situation, no official launch has happened pending a decision of whether or not a commercial partner is coming on board. I would imagine when that is known then a statement will be made about "official launch". Regardless RTE NL have an obligation for Digital Switch On and Analogue Switch Off by 2012. The service outside of all those smokescreens continues to be in place and is a welcome replacement for analogue.

The Cush

STB wrote: »

IF your expectation was to receive Irish DTT, then your purchase does not meet that expectation. It still wont work in 1/2 years time when analogue is gone (that is an unreasonable shelf life). Bring it back now. You are not satisfied, It is not fit for your purposes or anyone wishing to recive digital terrestrial television. You require a TV with an tuner capable of decoding MPEG4 encoded signals. Any decent retailer should facilitate you.

@Gagetman

When you were purchasing the TV did you ask the retailer if this tv would receive the Irish DTT channels (or was this your expectation when you set it up at home)?

Did the retailer advertise or advise you that the tv was Irish DTT compatible?

If yes to either of these two questions then you may have a case otherwise it would be down to the goodwill of the retailer. The retailer does not know your expectations unless you ask them.

TV's are considered fit for purpose if they receive the Irish analogue channels

10. I have a DVB-T will this pick up digital television in Ireland?

In Ireland there is no digital terrestrial television (DTT) service in place at present. This means that any televisions currently on the market in Ireland must be capable of operating on the analogue television network only. The specifications for digital televisions vary from country to country so a digital television which receives digital services in one country may not work in another country. It is likely that digital televisions for the Irish market will become available when digital terrestrial television services are introduced.

In the event that your television does not work to receive DTT signals directly, once DTT services become available, you will need to purchase a DTT set top box or a PVR to upgrade the television to receive the Irish DTT services.

http://www.digitaltelevision.ie/Frequent+Questions/

If you live in the Limerick area pop into Maplin's in the Childers Road Retail Park, in the satellite receiver section they have a freeview STB for sale - clearly not fit for purpose in the Mid-West area. I think it was this one, don't remember the price.

Mike 1972

The Cush wrote: »

Many retailers simply don't have a clue (MPEG-2, MPEG-4, MHEG-5, DTT, iDTV, etc, etc.) - this is down to the lack of information from the authorities, the failure to have an approved DTT logo and the abundance of freeview TVs.

"Many retailers dont have a clue" but someone buying a TV is expected to know what its going to be compatable ?!?!?!?!

If the retailer doesnt have a clue then quite frankly they are in the wrong line of business

STB

Mike 1972 wrote: »

"Many retailers dont have a clue" but someone buying a TV is expected to know what its going to be compatable ?!?!?!?!

If the retailer doesnt have a clue then quite frankly they are in the wrong line of business

The thing is they know were to source these cheap products and make easy money regardless. Some of it is just arrogance. Regardless its all oul warehoused stock being dumped on the Irish market.

Some of it stupidity (some might even say deliberately misleading) as could be seen by Harvey Normans free catalogue of offers given out with one of last Sundays "newspapers". Confusion through the use of HDTV ready, HD Freeview and digital terrestrial freeview AND they even mentioned MPEG4 in one but not in another (that clearly was). Unbelievable.

sesswhat

I think it's worth a try to go back to the retailer. If that fails I think it is then worth getting your local radio phone-in show on the case, if only to highlight the problem for others.

I know the official department line is not to have a public information campaign until they finish the bidding process. However, at this stage the least they should be doing is giving anyone buying a new TV the information they need to make sure it is Saorview compliant.

The whole Saorview logo initiative is already to late. People investing in TVs need to know now and I can't see a valid reason for not telling them.

prioryc

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/consumer-affairs/consumer-protection/consumer-rights/consumers_and_the_law_in_ireland

As someone who has worked in retail for many years i have seen items brought back for just about every reason imaginable even as little as a tv not having batteries for the remote inside ...the law is on your side
if i were u i'd have no problem in bringing it back (with a receipt etc)...a hd tv that cant show HDTV is a bit too irish ...you were hardly buying it for use in the uk or for that matter just so u could have analog tv for 1 year more before u go out and purchase another one...ya right!
...some advice posted earlier from an experienced forum member should have been better :rolleyes: tut tut

Sam Russell

STB wrote: »

.................. Unbelievable.

Exactly.

A retailer is an 'expert' and should warn a customer that the equipment 'might be unsuitable for Irish DTT'. If he fails to alert the customer, he is negligent.

Retailers have turned a blind eye to the upcoming DTT service. Some of it was ignorance, but now it is beyond belief that you can see an advert for TVs, some of which are advertised as 'IRISH DTT READY', while the others do not mention it.

Daft.

The Cush

Mike 1972 wrote: »

"Many retailers dont have a clue" but someone buying a TV is expected to know what its going to be compatable ?!?!?!?!

If the retailer doesnt have a clue then quite frankly they are in the wrong line of business

Back again to the Dept of Comms & BAI (BCI) and their failure to mandate an approved logo back in Jul 2008 when the DVB-T/MPEG-4 spec was confirmed.

A comprehensive single source of information for both consumers and retailers similar to http://www.digitaluk.co.uk/ is required.

Until there are approved receivers its going to be pot luck for those who don't inform themselves, this forum has been doing that job for a few years now.

The Cush

Has anyone here who purchaced an MPEG-2 TV and maybe posted about the lack of video returned their MPEG-2 tv to their retailer and successfully got a refund or an MPEG-4 replacement or taken a small claims court action.

If so please post the information because it will save a lot of repetition over the next 12 months because there are going to be so may consumer like Gagetman that think they have a "Digital TV".

Are there any legal professionals or consumer affairs experts who would advise.

This information should then be placed as a sticky at the top of this forum.

Gagetman

Yes there is a lot of advice there. I appreciate everyone's advice. There are a number of points I wish to add: Firstly I didn't buy the tv for the sole reception of digital terrestial tv, I got it for its screen size and picture quality both of which I am very happy with. However I would imagine that if the tv is specked with a tuner for the reception of digital tv transmissions and it is purchased in the same country from a reputial seller then it should do exactly that without question. The analog tuner tunes on both vhf and uhf bands, if it were uk specked only then it would only tune on the uhf band.
I don't believe for a second that this so called analog switch off is going to happen in 2012. How can everyones tv's be made out of date in less than 24 months when the new tv's are not equipped with the correct tuners because of standards not being formalized. Unless the government is going to bail out everyone and buy them a new tv,:D oh sorry government bailouts only apply to fat cat bankers and devolopers,:rolleyes: anyway thats an other story.
The thing is I am happy with my analog signal for the irish channels and freesat hd so I am not agrieved enough to be motivated to take on a big battle which I am not sure I would win as I normally pick my battles as the ones i am pretty sure I can win.
The option of fitting a cam card which would rectify the problem sounds like a simple solution depending on the expense.
However havind said all that I am going to go back to the retailer in Limerick and see what kind of response I get. I am also going to take up the problem with the manufacturer and see what kind of response I get from them. I have heard good stories about Sony's after sales service. I have had sony tv's for 20 years and this is the first issue I have had with one.
Whatever the response I get I will pose as soon as
Gagetman

The Cush

Gagetman wrote: »

However havind said all that I am going to go back to the retailer in Limerick and see what kind of response I get. I am also going to take up the problem with the manufacturer and see what kind of response I get from them. I have heard good stories about Sony's after sales service. I have had sony tv's for 20 years and this is the first issue I have had with one.
Whatever the response I get I will pose as soon as
Gagetman

Any update, how did you get on with the retailer, Gagetman?