Attitudes to discipline

_Kaiser_

Hey all,

Just thought I'd stick this up to see what people's opinions were..

First off, I (like many of my generation - god I sound old! ) was raised under the old system that there's nothing wrong with getting the occasional belt if you push it too far (always was a last resort though), and was given responsibilities/housework etc from the age of 9. My mother worked shift hours so I'd often have to get my younger sister ready for school, to school, home, homework done, fed etc

Equally in those days, if you came home having been in trouble at school, you'd likely get worse when you confessed, and if a neighbour gave out to you it was justified and your mother wouldn't be out threatening to sue them etc :rolleyes:

As we all say, it did me no harm and I think I grew up with a healthy respect for others, the rules in life and myself.

These days of course, thanks to an influx of (primarilly) Americanised psychology and ideas on parenting, it seems that many Irish parents are almost afraid to discipline their kids when they act up for fear of being looked down upon or even reported by wannabe do-gooders or the child "emancipating" themselves or whatever... result: out of control kids, increases in anti-social behaviour and (if left unchecked at that stage) more serious problems as they get older.

Now, the reason I'm posting this is that my long-term gf (who has a 9 year old girl from a previous relationship), comes more from the "Supernanny" school of discipline whereby instead of telling the child to do something, or ordering her to her room if she refuses to comply after being asked again (several times!), my gf would instead debate and compromise with the child instead and if she finally IS sent to her room, would be up apologising to the girl a few minutes later!
What I find ironic about this is that she herself was raised with the same approach as I was.

To me this is not effective and sends mixed messages to the child. The net result is the child acts up more around her mother but knows (and has admitted) that she won't get away with the same sort of carry-on around me (or her father for that matter!). She's also admitted that she herself thinks my/her dad's approach works better than her mam's (although her mother thinks this was just to keep me happy )

All that said though, I'm really not as bad as it may sound above (for the most part I'm fairly easy going and myself and the child in question get on pretty well), BUT I do believe that if a child misbehaves, they should be pulled up on it there and then and with no room for ambiguity.

As my other half is also on boards (hi honey! ), she'll no doubt come in here with her 2c (or 20c!) but as I say, it's been an ongoing (mostly) good-natured debate between us that I wouldn't mind getting some other opinions on.

metrovelvet

I got the old school strap too. I didnt work on me and it didnt work on others. Discipline and punishment is so tricky. Every child is different and every circumstance of the bad behavior is different. I'm only starting out with all this, there is a limit to how much I negotiate with my son before I inflict a scolding or confiscation. But he does get a chance thats for sure. And it also depends on their level of understanding. Saying that, they all act up worse around the mothers,even boot camp mommies.

BennyLava

I presume that you and your partner are both well adjusted, caring people, who only want the best for the child

Two points really, your partner is not doing the child any favors trying to be their friend, she are a parent, and as such is there to help the child develop into a responsible adult, compromising / bargaining with the child only teaches her that if she doesn't get her way that all she has to do is keep pushing it until she does get her way, as opposed to you where when you say no you mean no.

children look for boundaries and when found will try and push those boundaries as much as possible, but as a parent your role is to guide them, keep them safe, teach them what is and isn't acceptable, and in doing so they will respect you more

The old adage, if its not broke don't fix it applies, the way you and your OH were raised, created two decent people, so obviously it worked, why try a different way?

You sound like good parents, Am sure things will work out no matter what method you use

lalalulu

Hi Kasier.. My Mother would of been the parent to sit and talk to me about what i had done wrong as a child. i think she might of slapped me once and it would of been for something extremely serious. My dad would of been more likely to slap the back of my legs or just threaten to do this, which was worse! I have a great relationship with my mam mainly because we talked through any problems we had when i was younger she set boundries so i always knew where i was with her and i felt safe. I can't agree with using physical punishment it just doesn't work. It teaches a child nothing other than when mammy and daddy get angry or frustrated they hit me! It can definitely affect a child's self esteem. I think as a parent you need to be consistent so no mean's no and no amount of pleading or crying is going to get the child their own way. I like the supernanny way, as it teaches kids boundaries and rules and to have respect for others something which is seriously lacking in our society!

fatmammycat

When I was growing up my Father, who never hit or for that matter really shouted, would look me square in the eye and say 'I'm very disappointed in you, I would have expected better' if I did something wrong, whereas my mother would yell, wallop, cry, hit, threaten, slap and in general push me around. I can honestly say, with my hand on my heart, that my father's quiet disappointment had MUCH more of an effect on me than ANY amount of rage or hysteria or physical punishment, more so as I aged.
There is a way of getting through to your children without resorting to hitting them, you need to know or learn how, and after that you will be respected and listened to- and thought kindly of, unlike certain hysterical witches.
( interestingly, my father trained working collies and did not have to resort to shouting or hitting them either!):)

gullible

I do not believe in hitting however neither do I believe in debating with my child. He is 7 years old and knows that my word is final. If my son didn't do what he was told and I started debating/try to compromise...what's he going to learn from it...keep pushing his luck till he gets what he wants???
He does his "chores" small things like helping set or clear the table, keeping his room tidy, clearing away his toys from the front room, always putting his rubbish in the bin, etc. and as he gets older he will be given more.
That's not to say that occasionally he doesn't act up of course a child is going to push boundaries as they grow up but if they aren't corrected they will keep pushing those boundaries.

CrazyRabbit

Obviously only possible with ages 4/5+, but...

1. Set some basic rules of behaviour. What is and is not acceptable.
2. Get the child to agree to these rules. Explain why the rules are needed.
3. Set some basic non-physical punishments for breaking these rules, with differing levels of punishment depending on how serious the rule that was broken. Allow the child to choose as many of these punishments as possible.
4. When a rule is broken, the child must choose from an appropriate list of punishments they previously agreed to. Failure to choose results in an automatically more severe level of punishment, chosen by the parent.

Since the child effectively punishes themselves for breaking a rule, this teaches self discipline and provides a greater incentive to regulate their own behaviour. Self discipline is one of the best gifts you can ever give your child.

I've seen this method in practice and it is extremely effective.

Some important notes:
1. Always use consistent language/terms. E.G, repeatedly use 'Not acceptable' instead of moving from 'bold' to 'bad' to 'not nice' etc.
2. Listen to the child. Find out why they broke the rule. Help them articulate their feelings. There might be an underlying reason for their poor behaviour that they can't easily express.
3. Re-enforce good behaviour by expressing that they should be proud of themselves when they are good. Remember, the goal is not to please you, but to be happy with themselves for behaving well.
4. Never speak in anger to a child over bad behaviour. By all means, show that you are upset, but anger has no place in discipline.
5. Remember to give your child a hug or tell them that you love them after they have been punished. It helps make the child feel more secure and more willing to admit when they make mistakes rather than hiding them.

celsy

It's all about respect and appreciation.

Children need to be told NO and parents need to follow through.

Too many kids rule the roost these days.

Ye can't talk like an adult to a child, yeh explain why but that's it, parents have final say!

Kosseegan

The Americans are causing a lot of trouble with bringing up children. Nowadays if a parent can't give a child a slap on the bottom without risking ending up in trouble with the social services. Children need firm discipline such as murgha and caning. Caning should start at the age of 10.
Some of these non violence whingers are talking nonsense. A 15 year old comes home missing her knickers and smelling of tobacco and clearly intoxicated and all the parent is supposed to do is wag their finger and say "no bedtime stories for you tonight"!! Clearly the 15 year old should be given a proper punishment on her bottom.

fatmammycat

Oh shut up, there only one talking absolute nonsense is you. As if beating your children with a stick was a healthy alternative to being a parent. And if your 15 year old comes home sans underwear, drunk and reeking of fags you've clearly not done much of a job as a parent thus far, beating the child for your shortcomings is not going to help any.

Nevyn

Kosseegan wrote: »

Nowadays if a parent can't give a child a slap on the bottom without risking ending up in trouble with the social services.

That certainly is not true.

Kosseegan wrote: »

Children need firm discipline such as murgha and caning. Caning should start at the age of 10.

That will get you in trouble with the social services, canning is child abuse and child abuse will not be advocated on this forum, this is your last warning, Kosseegan.

Kosseegan wrote: »

Some of these non violence whingers are talking nonsense. A 15 year old comes home missing her knickers and smelling of tobacco and clearly intoxicated and all the parent is supposed to do is wag their finger and say "no bedtime stories for you tonight"!! Clearly the 15 year old should be given a proper punishment on her bottom.

If you have not instilled in your 15 year old daughter better respect for herself, her parents and the rules of the home she lives in so that she behaves in such a fashion then yes there is a huge problem and I pity that child but physical punishment and abuse is not needed to instill such values in a child.

metrovelvet

Kosseegan wrote: »

The Americans are causing a lot of trouble with bringing up children. Nowadays if a parent can't give a child a slap on the bottom without risking ending up in trouble with the social services. Children need firm discipline such as murgha and caning. Caning should start at the age of 10.
Some of these non violence whingers are talking nonsense. A 15 year old comes home missing her knickers and smelling of tobacco and clearly intoxicated and all the parent is supposed to do is wag their finger and say "no bedtime stories for you tonight"!! Clearly the 15 year old should be given a proper punishment on her bottom.

Just wait till they are big enough to cane you back. Dont come whinging here. You taught them how to do it.

Nevyn

Please do not let this thread go off topic.

Kosseegan

fatmammycat wrote: »

Oh shut up,

Is this how you react to anyone who does not agree with you? By being rude? No wonder children these days are so disrespectful of others if this is the example they are getting.

embee

Folks,

Thaed has already asked ye to keep on-topic. This is a discussion board. Ergo, telling people to "shut up" is sort of counterproductive. Let's not derail the thread.

di11on

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

...my long-term gf (who has a 9 year old girl from a previous relationship), comes more from the "Supernanny" school of discipline ...

You seem to associate old school discipline with force ("the occasional belt") and differentiate this with what you call the "Supernanny" style, where the child effectively rules the roost.

Actually, it sounds like your gf is implementing nothing of what Suppernanny would advocate. I think the association between "Supernanny" and a more liberal approach (rules free, almost) is inaccurate. If you actually look carefully at the methods Suppernanny advocates, I think you'll find that they're not too different in principle to what you refer to as "old school".

For example, if Supernanny caught you apologising to the child after sending the child to her room, she'd beat you :-)

This isn't to say that I agree with all of what Supernanny says... though!

What I'm saying is, that an effective discipline regime doesn't have to involve belting your kids. I'm not necessarily saying this would be wrong, just saying effective discipline isn't synonymous with belting!

In the end, we discipline our children because we love them and want to show them what is acceptable behaviour and what isn't, so they are prepared as much as possible, for life. Letting them get away with stuff that isn't acceptable (or wouldn't be in the big bad world) is doing them no favours at all.

I think this is the way to see it, rather than beating vs. Supernanny!

Kosseegan

metrovelvet wrote: »

Just wait till they are big enough to cane you back. Dont come whinging here. You taught them how to do it.

Now you are threatening violence! You are being inconsistent. In my country all children are caned by their parents. I have never heard of any parent being attacked by their child as a result.

Nevyn

Kosseegan is you have an issue with a post report it do not drag the thread of topic esp after a warning in the not to do so.

Nevyn

We teach or children respect both for themselves and for others and part of that is correction when they go wrong and rewarding good behaviour with praise and when needed punishing bad behaviour.

It is something which we start when they reach the terrible twos stage and by 7 we should have the basics with them sorted and they are old enough to have why certain behaviors are not acceptable explained to them and disciplining a child does not mean physical chastisement.

Goldenlady

I think that there are some valid points in all the points - both for and against "Slapping" a child. I personally, do not have kids, but have a longterm partner who had three kids. One of these lives with him and is not even a kid at this stage but a young adult -however I see how he fears disciplining her in case he "emotionally hurts" her as he feels the breakdown of his marriage was enough emotional baggage for her to deal with. Im sorry - this girl actually needs a good slap to let her see the world doesnt revolve around her. I think a lot of people are constantly walking on egg shells around their kids - we need to go back to the days of ours parents and people listen to their parents and actually be afraid of letting them down! I think all these values are lost now a days. :mad:

di11on

Goldenlady wrote: »

this girl actually needs a good slap to let her see the world doesnt revolve around her.

Does she?

Do you think there might be other ways of making her see this? Perhaps, even more effective ways.

Goldenlady

Honestly, I know that might sound harsh, but we have tried everything, and I mean everything. Counselling, anger management, buying her everything she wants, etc. Nothing is ever enough and she shows her father no respect and actually hit him and scratched his face one night after she was drinking and then wrote terrible things on a website about him which her brother stumbled across and showed me.
I really feel she has no discipline in her life at all and this is why she is running all over the place. She has no fear of anyone...... Sorry if I sounded harsh, but to me she has no respect. My parents reared me well and I have respect for all the people i should.

di11on

Goldenlady wrote: »

Honestly, I know that might sound harsh, but we have tried everything, and I mean everything. Counselling, anger management, buying her everything she wants, etc. Nothing is ever enough and she shows her father no respect and actually hit him and scratched his face one night after she was drinking and then wrote terrible things on a website about him which her brother stumbled across and showed me.
I really feel she has no discipline in her life at all and this is why she is running all over the place. She has no fear of anyone...... Sorry if I sounded harsh, but to me she has no respect. My parents reared me well and I have respect for all the people i should.

Don't apologise, this is a discussion forum :-)

Sounds you're dealing with a teenager here!

Perhaps the way to make her see she is the centre of the world is to stop treating her like she is. You've obviously tried many different approaches. It's a tricky situation. Dad obviously feels guilty/sensitive about the marriage breakdown etc. which I'm sure isn't helping. Have you guys tried talking to her, face to face, as fellow adults, about the breakup, why it's happened and how it affects her?

Goldenlady

Thank you - I have a tendency to apologise all the time!:rolleyes:

Yeah, we have both tried talking to her on plenty of occasions, her dad has sat her down and she will open up and then the next day is back to herself. She says she feels lonely etc, but she has friends who she just ignores, she dropped out of college etc. I think the issue for me is that I am closer in age to her than to her father and I feel like she is a younger sister or something, so I just want her to grow up.
I do feel that she takes advantage of the whole marriage break up situation and she doesnt speak with her mother,hasnt done for some time now. Its a very complicated situation, but I do believe everyone needs some discipline in their lives in some kind of form.

di11on

Goldenlady wrote: »

Thank you - I have a tendency to apologise all the time!:rolleyes:

Yeah, we have both tried talking to her on plenty of occasions, her dad has sat her down and she will open up and then the next day is back to herself. She says she feels lonely etc, but she has friends who she just ignores, she dropped out of college etc. I think the issue for me is that I am closer in age to her than to her father and I feel like she is a younger sister or something, so I just want her to grow up.
I do feel that she takes advantage of the whole marriage break up situation and she doesnt speak with her mother,hasnt done for some time now. Its a very complicated situation, but I do believe everyone needs some discipline in their lives in some kind of form.

Trouble is, we're dealing with an adult here, so she needs to be treated like one. For one, I wouldn't let another adult live in my home if they hit me/scratched me or otherwise abused me. At this stage, dealing with an adult, it's more about ground rules than discipine, imo. She doesn't like them, she can move out.

In this situation, I think dad should be understanding, offer his support, but be entirely clear what kind of behaviour is and isn't acceptable in his house and withdraw financial support, if necessary.

themysteriouson

I'll bring it back to wat the OP said.
I was also raised with the same kind of discipline as the OP by both my mother and father. I knew if I did something I wasnt supposed to you were going to get in trouble whether it be grounded for 2 weeks for something bad (and they kept you in for the whole two weeks!) or a clip around the ear. I think it made me more sensible because I learnt my lesson the first time.
I propably wont give my child a slap but I definitely wont be doing the whole understanding and reasonable thing parents should be firm but kind if you know wat I mean.

gullible

Read an article in the Sunday Times this morning relating to child discipline and remembered this discussion on boards. Thought I'd post a link in case anyone is interested.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/ireland/article7017712.ece

Demonique

Kosseegan wrote: »

The Americans are causing a lot of trouble with bringing up children. Nowadays if a parent can't give a child a slap on the bottom without risking ending up in trouble with the social services. Children need firm discipline such as murgha and caning. Caning should start at the age of 10.
Some of these non violence whingers are talking nonsense. A 15 year old comes home missing her knickers and smelling of tobacco and clearly intoxicated and all the parent is supposed to do is wag their finger and say "no bedtime stories for you tonight"!! Clearly the 15 year old should be given a proper punishment on her bottom.

You are aware that 15 year olds are more than capable of defending themselves? Anyone who strikes their 15 year old is putting themselves at risk of a severe beating then their child finally flips



Also:

Nevyn

Do not reply to posts which you consider to be troll posts, report them instead.

How to deal with trolls.

stovelid

I don't really like contributing too much to the discipline debates as we have only one child for whom we have only recently had to start thinking of discipline. We have been using a naughty chair/corner for time-outs but always give a few clear warnings first. In most cases, the warnings seem to work and he understands.

I was slapped as a child and we don't want to go down that road with our child although I don't judge people that give (mild) physical chastisement to their children.

I have smacked him (not hard and on the bum) only once in reactive frustration and it does seem to work short-term, but for me it only does so because you frighten the child and you "win" because you are bigger and his caregiver. It wasn't lost on me that I smacked him for actually slapping out at me in temper. I felt so bad after doing it that, for me, it couldn't be a tenable method of discipline and we're going to stick with the naughty chair/corner.

Khannie

I missed this thread the first time around in the melee of newborn goodness.

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

my long-term gf (who has a 9 year old girl from a previous relationship), comes more from the "Supernanny" school of discipline whereby instead of telling the child to do something, or ordering her to her room if she refuses to comply after being asked again (several times!), my gf would instead debate and compromise with the child instead

Hehe. Children should do what they're told IMO. I'm intolerant of what I'd call "nonsense". I'll go as far ask asking a 3rd time with the 3 year old. After that it's time for action. I do this for a good reason: Sometimes there's an immediacy of compliance required. I don't have time to debate why you shouldn't cross the road. If I tell you to stop, you'd bloody well better stop. Having said that, we do use supernanny "tricks". The bold step (as we call it) is *incredibly* effective with our little one.

Of course as our youngfella has gotten older (he's 12 now) he likes to understand your logic more so I'll explain to him afterwards why I've asked him to do what I've asked him to do. I still expect him to do what I've told him though. If he asks at the time and it's important for him to do it quickly I'll say "just do it" and he will without question. In a case like that I'd almost certainly talk to him afterwards. This leads to trust on his part that there's a good reason to "just do it" when I say "just do it".

I don't want a big slapping debate, but I'll just say that I haven't slapped any of my kids (though I reserve the right to). I was only slapped once as a child and I never forgot it (and I totally deserved it ). I really knew where the line was after that.

seahorse

If I had read this thread eighteen months ago I would have responded differently, but things have happened in the meantime that have caused a big-time change of mind. My sister and her worlds-biggest-spoiled-brat of a child came to stay in my home for four months and let me tell you, by the time that nightmare was over I had very different ideas about child discipline!

This particular childs behaviour was actually caused by a complete lack of discipline and by the time her mother had got through ruining her a good clatter in the arse would have done her the world of good. I don't expect many people to agree with me and that's fine by me - I was in my home in the winter of 2008, 'many people' weren't!

Ickle Magoo

I don't know see why effective discipline must equate to violence though.

We don't smack and we have well behaved kids (most of the time!), I wasn't smacked and I wouldn't have dared do some of the things I see some kinds do before a parent whacks them one...

Effective discipline means effective parenting, as Crazy Rabbit posted - a well behaved, well adjusted child for the majority of the time is about so much more than giving them the belt when they trip up.

seahorse

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

I don't know see why effective discipline must equate to violence though.

Oh I get that totally Ickle Magoo, the ideal scenario with the child I'm talking about is that she'd have been disciplined properly from the earliest stages, but the sorry truth is that she wasn't.

Her mother was and is an impossibly indulgent parent, so much so that her daughter was raised to believe it's alright to walk into peoples homes and start smashing glasses and ornaments for her own amusement:eek: (among innumerable other crazy and unsupportable behaviours) and for a child like that I'm sorry to say the best (and probably only) effective late-stage intervention would be a swift hard smack in the arse.

Ickle Magoo

Yeah, I know the type of child you mean...we have a family member who lets her kids draw on the wall because it's the kids "expressing themselves"...not just their walls though, people they stay with or visit, too! :eek: There are now members of our family that only see these people in a neutral venue! :pac:

I don't think being an impossibly indulgent parent then tempering it with smacks or kicks up the @rse will make matters any better either, probably make them worse, tbh. I'm sure I've said this before on this forum so forgive me if I'm just repeating myself but I view parenting as a bit like any other management job. Too lax and they take the píss, slack off and steal from you, too harsh and you loose all the fun and they loose the work hard ethos and loose respect, hit the balance just right and they work hard because they want to please you and they hold you in high regard and have a lot of respect for the boundaries you have implemented. It is a bit of hellish juggling act at times!

seahorse

Yes I see what you mean, her mother clattering her would only be adding an extra negative element to an already negative parenting style. Actually it wasnt her mother giving her the slap in the arse I was visualising during those months - it was me! Honestly, a person who wasn't in that house during that time would have no idea of the stress levels I'm talking about. I honestly don't want to relive it all but this child simply behaved like an animal escaped straight over the wall of dublin zoo. Sorry to say no doubt her mother's hopelessly lazy parenting will end up biting the pair of them on the arse.

Ickle Magoo

Yeah, I sometimes wonder what kind of teenagers some of these kids will turn out like - I'd love to be a fly on the wall!

cbyrd

I agree with Khannie, i don't hit my kids but i reserve the right to, like that i got a couple of quare smacks with a teatowel brandishing nana (who we lived with 2nd mammy type thing) it didn't do me any harm and i do remember them, but i always said i prefered a slap to a lecture quicker and less painful;)
I can explain to my eldest 2 now why i want things done right now as opposed to in an hour with everyone upset cos i had to give out and lose the plot before it was done!!:D Although now i have learned to pick my battles and only go for the ones i'm sure to win!! otherwise i do let some stuff go. They know by the look i give them what level of trouble they are in and it works wonders when we're out and about and i don't want to be seen to be on they're case, I am they're mother not they're best friend, there'll be plenty of time for that when they're grown up and i can relate to them as adults. Until then i'm responsible for getting them there and i don't think going easy on them the whole time is going to do it. Yes i'll be unpopular with them when i'm disiplining them but they'll be better people in the future for it! At least i hope they will:D
The most frightening thing is sounding like my parents while i'm doing it.. the one thing i always swore i'd never do when i was on the recieving end of it!!