Looking into a fairly high gain amp

Sandvich

I'm looking into getting a fairly high gain amp. There's a few options I'm looking at, at the moment.

The one I'm most likely to get is the Jet City 20 Watt combo - it looks pretty nifty. However it has no effects loop, and might be a bit low on the gain side. Also It'd cost me over 400 new when I could get a second hand amp for less than that with more feature. The main problem though is that I don't think it has a lot of clean headroom, and I need an amp that can take pedals well.

I'm also looking into JCM900 and 2000 combos. I see these go for €400 and under, are they any good? I like the JCM2000 but apparently the powertubes in the combo give it a more fuzzy, voxy tone than the more "Metal" kind of sound the JCM2000 normally does.

I'm also considering looking into quality Solid State amps. I'll be using this amp for both recording and my apartment and eventually playing live(hopefully), so having it sound similar at both high and low volume would be great. The other thing is that I need a bit of clean headroom to use pedals with - I've found a lot of pedals don't sound very good with too much dirt from the amp itself.

Quattroste

You're asking for quite the amp there. Live, Studio, Bedroom and to sound the same every time!!.

What's fairly high gain, Metal, hard rock?

Have you considered the digital modelling route? Line 6 pod, etc. If you take this route you would set the Pod(or other modeller) to the tones you like and run through a decent clean amp. Once the Amp can handle the volume it should sound the same whether the amp is at low or high volume. You could also run a Pod through a PA for live work(with some tweaking).

My €0.02

Sandvich

I've considered a modeler but I really like to have something that's plug in and go, and modelers in my experience do not take pedals well.

I had an AD30VT which I loved for the longest time, but I had to let it go because of that.

Sergio

I have a Jcm 2000 Dsl401 combo for sale on the adverts.ie website at the moment.its in great condition never used for gigging only bedroom use only includes footswitch and user manual.

Sandvich

I'll consider taking you up on that, but I'll have to see. I'd rather get the 20 Watter of the 2000 since that would be much more useful at apartment volumes, I'm not even sure I'll be gigging anytime soon. I won't be getting this new amp for another month or two though, I might be moving again and will hopefully have things more organised then for a big amp. If it's still hanging around in a month or so I'll consider it.

nicknackgtb

You could check out the Marshall Class 5 either, Class A valve amp! even being 5 watt, and Class A, there would be alot of punch out of it, and i'd say ideal for apartment recording and the like? Check out their video. think its in or around the €370 mark.

http://www.marshallamps.com/marshall_theatre_popup.asp?clipCat=class5

Sandvich

Sadly it has no master volume, making it kind of pointless for apartment jamming!

I have an AC4 and no way I could play with the 4 Watt setting cranked, even the 1/4W can be too loud.

thecatspjs

i think that peavay do a lot of decent quality ss amps, decent prices too. check out the transtube series if u haven't already. they're pretty versatile and like you said, you can just plug in and play!

Sandvich

It's between the:

Marshall JCM 2000 DSL 401/201 second hand, usually goes for 400 and under
Peavey Transtube Bandit - 270 or so
Jet City JCA20RC, newer model with 2 channels - not sure when it's out or what it'll cost

The 2000 is winning ou a bit at the moment, though I'm intrigued with the Bandit. If I was using it with pedals or I swapped out the speaker for a better one, it might sound just as good as an all tuber in some cases.

thecatspjs

the dsl 401 is an awesome amp imo, i used it for years in a death metal band and it worked a treat. but i honestly think that the bandit (i own one!) is really versatile and the best value for money, and it would get you thru pretty much anything

Sandvich

It's a really tough choice at the moment.

The Marshall would probably have the best resale, wouldn't it? If I wanted to sell it and get an amp more to my pleasing later on. The Peavey Bandit being SS wouldn't really, but it is cheaper to begin with.

I haven't really heard enough of it to know. If I heard a Shootout between the Bandit and JCM2000 combo I'd have a good idea then.

thecatspjs

you'll just have to go try them both out. It's the only way!

Sandvich

The DSL is kind of out for me at the moment because of the effects loop only having a 50% mix. That's a bit naff to be honest. While it'd be fine for solo delays and most reverbs if you turn them up, I like to use Chorus on top of distortion and I can't imagine it'd work out well. F/X loop isn't necessarily essential though if it has clean headroom, so I guess it's better it has one than doesn't.

nicknackgtb

Another new amp out on the market now might be an idea for you is the Marshall MA Series, only a new one out. but the price is right and its a new amp too. they are around the 600 mark for 50 watt combo or 730 for 100w.

Just been reading up on it there and thought of this thread!!

http://marshallamps.com/product_range.asp?productRangeId=30

Sandvich

Getting a little worried about the sheer weight of the Bandit. I know that it's not much for some of you, but I had trouble lugging around a 30W amp before. To be fair, I was walking a moderate distance with it, but still, there are 1x12 amps that seem to clock in around that, the Bandit is closer to 45. I don't understand when the Envoy is only 20lbs.

Karl Hungus

Ok...

Sandvich wrote: »

I'll be using this amp for both recording and my apartment and eventually playing live(hopefully), so having it sound similar at both high and low volume would be great. The other thing is that I need a bit of clean headroom to use pedals with - I've found a lot of pedals don't sound very good with too much dirt from the amp itself.

Sandvich wrote: »

Getting a little worried about the sheer weight of the Bandit. I know that it's not much for some of you, but I had trouble lugging around a 30W amp before. To be fair, I was walking a moderate distance with it, but still, there are 1x12 amps that seem to clock in around that, the Bandit is closer to 45. I don't understand when the Envoy is only 20lbs.

You're looking for an amp that sounds similar at home, studio and live volumes, that has a decent amount of clean headroom, and that doesn't weigh very much either. You also seem to be looking for something at a fairly low price range, considering you're looking at the Peavey Bandit. I think you really need to re-evaluate your expectations here, because it seems like you're looking for everything in one package and extremely cheap.

First of all, be sure whether you want a solid state amp, or a tube amp. You're using pedals, but you don't say what pedals you use. A solid state amp doesn't take to overdrive pedals as well as tube amps do, so depending on what you're using, you might want to avoid solid state.

Few tube amps sound the same at low volume as they do at high volume. Engl amps generally sound extremely good at low volume compared to other amps (obviously not as good as with the volume nice and cranked, but the gain doesn't turn to fizzy mush at lower volumes either), and are extremely good quality, but an Engl might not only be out of your price range, a combo might be too heavy for you.

Also, how high gain is fairly high gain? Give us a ballpark idea here, what styles/bands for example?

Help us help you.

Demeyes

When you say high gain, what kind of stuff are you talking about? Because there is a world of difference between Thin Lizzy and Cannibal Corpse while they would both fall under that rough bracket!
Also, don't fall into the transtube/tube hybrid/valvestate thing and think you're getting anything remotely tube. Some of these might have 1 tube in them but they are just glorified SS amps really, but their names suggest otherwise. The peavey has no tube in it at all.
If you don't think you'll be gigging soon then maybe you should aim for a good bedroom solution, that way you'll be happy playing through it most of the time and you'll probably get a lot more for your money there, giggable tube amps are expensive and don't often take to quiet levels and sound great - particularly for higher gain stuff. As a matter of fact I have 2 full tube rigs but I play through a peavey bandit most of the time for my day to day practice. It gets the job done for when I need to play quietly at home and probably sounds better than my main rigs on a low volume setting.
That said though, the Bandit is no gigging amp. It goes loud but I don't reckon it's loud enough to get you clean over a hard hitting rock drummer.

Sandvich

Karl Hungus wrote: »

Ok...





You're looking for an amp that sounds similar at home, studio and live volumes, that has a decent amount of clean headroom, and that doesn't weigh very much either. You also seem to be looking for something at a fairly low price range, considering you're looking at the Peavey Bandit. I think you really need to re-evaluate your expectations here, because it seems like you're looking for everything in one package and extremely cheap.

Well to be fair, the Peavey Bandit is really impressive. I do love most of the clips I've heard of it. The only concerns I'd have, again, are the weight relative to some other SS combos I've looked at, and the possible lack of low gain tones.

My price range is about €400 or more. It has to be something that really impressed me though. I could pick up a Bandit for €200 so it's hard to justify spending loads on an amp.

First of all, be sure whether you want a solid state amp, or a tube amp. You're using pedals, but you don't say what pedals you use. A solid state amp doesn't take to overdrive pedals as well as tube amps do, so depending on what you're using, you might want to avoid solid state.

That's untrue. I have a small tube amp(AC4TV) and a ZT Lunchbox and they both take pedals quite well. While the AC4 is a little warmer(partly due to the larger speaker), the ZT Lunchbox is also a bit clearer. A lot of pedals nowadays are "amp in a box" pedals that actually sound quite warm on their own, using tricks like asymmetrical clipping and cascading JFETs.

The Jazz Chorus range can take pedals pretty well too.

The ZT Lunchbox is a nice gigging tool, but I have to have it hooked up to a cab really and doesn't have much gain on it(barely any with single coils).

Here's a clip of it with an SD-1. The recording isn't great though, still getting used to my Condenser.

http://www.box.net/shared/iizx8rsfdh

And here's another lined out, first at clean then with the Blue Box.

http://www.box.net/shared/4ijgojs9m7

Few tube amps sound the same at low volume as they do at high volume. Engl amps generally sound extremely good at low volume compared to other amps (obviously not as good as with the volume nice and cranked, but the gain doesn't turn to fizzy mush at lower volumes either), and are extremely good quality, but an Engl might not only be out of your price range, a combo might be too heavy for you.

That's true, in general higher gain amps sound better since they get their gain from the preamp and don't need much power tub saturation.

Also, how high gain is fairly high gain? Give us a ballpark idea here, what styles/bands for example?

It's tough to say what sounds in particular I want to emulate. I want to play a bit of Metal, I like the sound of Opeth's Black Orchid(A Boss HM-2 into a JCM800), At the Gates, Entombed, Death. I think I probably need a Boss HM-2, actually. I like the sound of high-gain Marshalls being used for metal. I want to try and steer clear of a Dual Rec kind of sound. In terms of the amount of gain, the JCM2000 would probably be enough. I hear the combos aren't great though partly due to the poor choice of tubes. I intend to use pedals to get a variety of "high gain" tones, I just need at least one good one on tap so I don't always need to plug in a pedal. Even something with a JCM800 level of gain would be great. Of course, it's more about the voicing than the amount of gian available in some ways. I find the JCM2000 has more that kind of voicing.

Aside from that I like the Smashing Pumpkins kind of tones, not just the Big Muff ones but the ones from Gish and MCIS too. I like Josh Homme's tones too, and Daniel Ash. I'd probably be playing a lot more of that kind of stuff than metal in a band situation, actually, but I find Metal tones can be the most fun to mess around with.

Sandvich

Demeyes wrote: »

When you say high gain, what kind of stuff are you talking about? Because there is a world of difference between Thin Lizzy and Cannibal Corpse while they would both fall under that rough bracket!
Also, don't fall into the transtube/tube hybrid/valvestate thing and think you're getting anything remotely tube. Some of these might have 1 tube in them but they are just glorified SS amps really, but their names suggest otherwise. The peavey has no tube in it at all.
If you don't think you'll be gigging soon then maybe you should aim for a good bedroom solution, that way you'll be happy playing through it most of the time and you'll probably get a lot more for your money there, giggable tube amps are expensive and don't often take to quiet levels and sound great - particularly for higher gain stuff. As a matter of fact I have 2 full tube rigs but I play through a peavey bandit most of the time for my day to day practice. It gets the job done for when I need to play quietly at home and probably sounds better than my main rigs on a low volume setting.
That said though, the Bandit is no gigging amp. It goes loud but I don't reckon it's loud enough to get you clean over a hard hitting rock drummer.

I'd be pretty surprised if it couldn't. You'd be surprised exactly what can and can't get over a drummer, some people jam with AC4s and HT-5s. Which model Bandit do you have? I'm probably getting the Red Stripe one. I'm aware there's no tube in it but I'm not that bothered. My AC4 is great for "Tube like warmth" anyway.

Thornography

ENGL Powerball or Fireball.

Check em out. two of the best amps for everything a high gain / metal guitarist needs.

darrenw5094

Sandvich wrote: »

Here's a clip of it with an SD-1. The recording isn't great though, still getting used to my Condenser.

http://www.box.net/shared/iizx8rsfdh

And here's another lined out, first at clean then with the Blue Box.

http://www.box.net/shared/4ijgojs9m7

What exactly is the tone on that second clip with the Blue Box?

Sandvich

darrenw5094 wrote: »

What exactly is the tone on that second clip with the Blue Box?

How do you mean? I use various different settings on the Blue Box... from 100% Oscillator to 100% Fuzz. It was run through a tiny amp called the ZT Lunchbox, using the headphone out at the back(which is less than ideal).

Thornography wrote: »

ENGL Powerball or Fireball.

Check em out. two of the best amps for everything a high gain / metal guitarist needs.

Yes, a bit out of my price range though I'm trying not to go over €500 or so.

The 6505+ Combo might be nice too if it didn't way like 65 pounds and had a slightly naff clean channel. I've heard some people say they actually prefer the Bandit too.

Demeyes

Sandvich wrote: »

I'd be pretty surprised if it couldn't. You'd be surprised exactly what can and can't get over a drummer, some people jam with AC4s and HT-5s. Which model Bandit do you have? I'm probably getting the Red Stripe one. I'm aware there's no tube in it but I'm not that bothered. My AC4 is great for "Tube like warmth" anyway.

My bandit is the 112 model, it's a few years old and has some red on it so maybe it's the same model you are looking at? I know guys gig with smaller amps but someone looking for a high gain head will likely be playing with a hard hitting rock drummer and not a blues/jazz guy messing around with brushes. You also want to run pedals so I'd guess you'd want it to keep clean but played loud it's going to break up. Then again you can always mic it up for practices and gigs and you'll be fine if you can do that.
It's a nice sounding amp, way better than the marshall stuff in the price range and in my opinion nicer than the Line 6 spiders too. I got mine to have for college and have pretty much played through it on a regular basis since. The voicing switches on it are great and make it pretty versatile.

Sandvich

Well, ideally I like the cleans to break up a bit, usually makes stuff sound a bit more more convincing when I run pedals through it. It's when the amp actually starts to give off a sufficient amount of overdrive on it's own that it kills the tone of whatever is going into it.

Can you get the "slightly broken up" sound at low volumes with the Bandit though? I hear you actually have to crank it to get those sounds which is a b it odd for an SS amp. I know it has a "Power sponge" thing so I guess that will help. The newer models only go to 25% as opposed to 10 though this is worrying. I might go for the Red Stripe model, though then I'll be losing an extra clean voicing.

alnicoll

The marshall jvms sound good at low and gig volumes.My friend has a 410 head any it sounds savage at his rehearsals,the most versatile marshall ever made.Then I heard it at bedroom levels and it still sounded great.

You see some going cheap on ebay from time to time,they sound crap brand new so it takes a few weeks for the amp to settle and 'break in' so if you can get one used.