Airsoft, a dying sport?

Sperminator

is it just me or does it seem that airsoft is failing in number, or is a case of too many site and not enough players. is there anyway we can promote the sport and start getting people interested again. i remember starting of in this sport and very few weekends went by without a least 30 players on the field, now i'm going to places and there are 15-20 players if we are lucky. no i'm not blaming anyone (before anyone starts screaming) i just don't want to see this sport die out, i don't want it to be though as a bit of a fad, and things did'nt work out. so as a player i asking want can we do to promote our sport?

Shiva

Sperminator wrote: »

is it just me or does it seem that airsoft is failing in number, or is a case of too many site and not enough players. is there anyway we can promote the sport and start getting people interested again. i remember starting of in this sport and very few weekends went by without a least 30 players on the field, now i'm going to places and there are 15-20 players if we are lucky. no i'm not blaming anyone (before anyone starts screaming) i just don't want to see this sport die out, i don't want it to be though as a bit of a fad, and things did'nt work out. so as a player i asking want can we do to promote our sport?

1 - loads more sites, so numbers are spread thinner

2 - time of year

3 - Not as much cash knocking about for people to spend on getting to venues and paying the fee

They'd be the three main reasons in my opinion.

Same thing happened last year, although I think its more pronounced this time round.

Chuck the Buck

Probably down to a mix of more sites open now (there are lots more now than there were back at the start of 2008 when I started playing), people bored with the same old site day in day out and decide try somewhere else and also people not having the cash to go play every weekend.



Edit: Ya what he said... <points at Shiva>

chin_grin

Ok, my opinion is probably invalid and null seeing that it's second hand.

But I went with my cousin when he was buying his "gear" for airsoft and thought 'f*cking hell! You'd want a real gun for the prices you're paying.'

So, yeah. My point. Prices, and advertising. Doesn't really have any other than word of mouth and the odd poster here and there!

Leftyflip

Real M4 Carbine: a few thousand
Airsoft Replica: around €150-€300.
Yeah, soo expensive compared to a RS...

MacAonghusa

Leftyflip wrote: »

Real M4 Carbine: a few thousand
Airsoft Replica: around €150-€300.
Yeah, soo expensive compared to a RS...

A colleague at work has 15 real guns (in the US). Most (inc AKs) were less than $200! :eek: You'd be amazed how cheap you can buy some real guns in the US.

J.D.R

In my opinion, it'd be good to have more events.I myself am a noob to airsoft, as i have only had my replicas for a few months, I with my first M4A1 this christmas, and I am only going to my first skirmish site the weekend after next.

The biggest thing that would be good for the sport would be more deals for skirmishing, and not just during opening times. I know I am probably repeating what others may have said before me, but more special offers like 2 for 1 entry or stuff like that would be nice, especially in the off season, preferably the weekend or the 6th of feb. It sounds like a nice date to have a free skirmish day

Leftyflip

MacAonghusa wrote: »

A colleague at work has 15 real guns (in the US). Most (inc AKs) were less than $200! :eek: You'd be amazed how cheap you can buy some real guns in the US.

And I wonder why the gun crime rates are so high:rolleyes:

Rhinocharge

Not a hope, airsoft is still expanding, just slower then before due to tightening belts. The weather is a major factor as is the fact that we're going back into exam time. Wait till the summer, there'll be skirmishers a plenty.

MacAonghusa

Leftyflip wrote: »

And I wonder why the gun crime rates are so high:rolleyes:

Well, he's a level headed responsible guy. Just don't pi** him off

TechnoPool

Leftyflip wrote: »

And I wonder why the gun crime rates are so high:rolleyes:

indeed, while on holidays we went into wal mart and got chatting to the lads in the sports sections. Being an American citizen with no criminal convictions ect for around $300 you could leave the store with a rifle/shotgun and ammunition in the space of a few hours.


tis mad.

Puding

airsoft is not dieing but it is have growing pains from time to time, airsoft in Ireland will mature in time, airsoft in the rest of europe has had decades in places to get to where it is know, people seem to want airsoft in Ireland to get to this stage over night and then think something is wrong when it fails to do so

Firekitten

Airsoft does this in the UK all the time... Christmas and summer are big ones, people have spent up after christmas, and are on holiday in the summer.... Things grow, and change, and flex.... Sometimes product releases dictate market flutuations, but its far from dying... Jebus, its only just started... no need to panic Captain Mannering....

As for sites shutting fown, etc. For its player base, Ireland as FAR too many sites... By far.... In the UK, people travel a little further, and attend more spread out sites. Average turnout is 80+ .... not 20... Anyone considered that Ireland got a LITTLE too eager when it started airsoft?

Sperminator

for those you going on about Real guns, please stay of this topic, this is about airsoft, thanks. (i feel the wrath of the mods coming on to me)
yes i know the weather has been bad, money belts been tightend, but even during last summer the number seemed to be down (this could just be me). however want i really want to find out is how do we as player and site owners and retailers, to promote our sport. i mean i can hardly go to a shopping center these days without been bombarded with leaflets for (dare i said it) PB. i mean surely there is something we can all do!

KonFusion

Donate cars to every airsoft player in the country....

I know that's a major obstacle for me since most sites ain't public transport friendly, sadly...

Damo 2k9

KonFusion wrote: »

Donate cars to every airsoft player in the country....

I know that's a major obstacle for me since most sites ain't public transport friendly, sadly...

+1
Same for me

TheDoc

I know me personally, I'm just picking my games.

Its harder now to gauge weather you are going to have a good day or not, so I'm being very picky when and where I go playing. I'm sure many are in the same boat, cant afford to just throw twenty euros away every weekend, where possibly last year if I had a bad game I wouldn't mind, more recent months I get annoyed if I have a bad day due to the fellow players on the day, and I'll usually avoid that particular place for a long period, or for a short period until I hear some good feedback.

I'd be more concerned if this was July and no one was out. Its January, so if you had the choice of playing in the rain or staying at home watching the football or something, the vast majority would pick staying at home.

Plus obviously the large amount of sites, although a good thing from consumers in one aspect, in another the days of large number gaming are gone, and you might be down to a site that has **** all on the day, and you yourself just have to turn away and go elsewhere.

Firekitten

KonFusion wrote: »

Donate cars to every airsoft player in the country....

I know that's a major obstacle for me since most sites ain't public transport friendly, sadly...

Fair comment. But not everyone in the UK has cars eaither... we get lifts, the bus, walk... its possible if you want to.

k99_64

Firekitten wrote: »

Fair comment. But not everyone in the UK has cars eaither... we get lifts, the bus, walk... its possible if you want to.

But in Ireland its far far harder to do this (esp with the gun bags), the transport system in Britain is so much better than here its not even funny.

I think the main problem is the lack of "puntersoft" at sites i.e. You can't just turn up and rent on site, you need to organise beforehand. It's not seen as an option for large groups for birthdays, stag dos etc. to rent for a day.

se conman

I for one do NOT think the sport is in decline but do think , as in any sport , that we have 99% of players who just want to turn up at a site and play and 1% who are left to look after the sport and guide it into the future.The IAA AGM , where we elected our governing body , was a good example of this.Sites will always have a balancing act between (new)players who just want to play and oldhands who want something more defined and this will naturally dictate the type of game play.Sites will not run strict milsim if most of their paying customers want something looser and the same is true of the oppisete,This is just pure economics.As the sport gows , this seperation of play types could become more apparent and the trick is not to have an "old hand" "new hand" division within the sport.(best of luck IAA)The strict milsim sites will , no doubt , be located in the larger urban areas , due to population concentrations and the fact that players who want this type of play will make the effort to get to site whereas the smaller rural sites will probebly have a looser type of game play.Again the trick is NOT to allow a THEM and US type of culture to develop.The IAA , who I do belive have done great work , now face a new challenge and that is to bring people up through the ranks and have them ready for future committee positions.

Daz1214

i dont think its dying, far from it but i think the current economic climate has a lot to do with it, there's not as much spare cash floating around at the mo..i do think we need more themed events, both one day and weekend, like in the UK and abroad, not just the regular week in week out skirmishing

zero86r

I do agree with has been said, the weather and economic state of the country sucks players away, i do also agree that more themed events would be great, i'd like to try playing in a big irish milsim event personally

Shiva

chin_grin wrote: »

Ok, my opinion is probably invalid and null seeing that it's second hand.

But I went with my cousin when he was buying his "gear" for airsoft and thought 'f*cking hell! You'd want a real gun for the prices you're paying.'

So, yeah. My point. Prices, and advertising. Doesn't really have any other than word of mouth and the odd poster here and there!

I'm not sure you can blame prices. I know I'm biased as someone who sells them, but I dont think thats the only factor. UK prices are in general equal, if not more expensive in a lot of cases, and theres a thriving airsoft industry there. Certainly the lack of disposable income at the moment is a factor thoughh.

The advertising thing is a good point. I've given that some thought in the past, but the problem there is that our biggest selling point (the realism and the RIFs) is also our biggest disadvantage. How do we promote the sport without incensing the handbag wavers, professional naysayers and politicians looking for a quick headline ?

Its very hard to promote airsoft without taking the chance of causing a massive backlash - we need to be choosy where we advertise.

Fallschirmjager

IMHO what we are seeing is competition between sites. Its just reached the level where people have a far greater choice and indeed expectation and will start to exercise it. There is the weather effect and money issue but that means people want a different experience.

Now we are reaching the point where some sites will break the mold. Someone soon, will decide to invest to convince players to come and will change the complexity and size/length of games. Some site sooner or later will go the next step and get for example, investment for companies 'team building' events, for larger games etc. For that to happen someone needs to invest the bucks.

To quote NASA...no bucks...no buck rogers...

sliabh

I don't thing the sport is dying, but I think it is in a bit of a rut. There has been a flood of sites (many in the same area - north Leinster) and there isn't the players or money to support them. From what I have seen you would be doing well to get 30 players 2 days a week. At €25 a punter than means you can pull in about €60k a year in revenue (after the tax man has had his cut). That won't pay for the setup, running (coillte charge €400-€1000 per acre plus 13.5% vat) and development of a site as well as the wages of the site owner. So there is going to have to be a shake out in the near future.

Someone mentioned the UK situation above. Now while I haven't played there I do see that they tend to charge more (stg£35 it seems) but they look like better sites as well. It's a chicken and egg thing though. You can charge more if you offer more, and you can offer more if you get more players. And that is part of the problem we have here. We have too many sites fighting for players so they can't make the money to develop and in some cases even keep going.

I know we have a lot of players who have come into the support who are younger, they are not working and they are more strapped for cash. I also see "crusty" players who have been on the scene since it was legalised who can afford to play when they want, relatively speaking, but don't because they aren't getting what they want from games/sites in Ireland.

Personally, I only came to airsoft this year. I don't get out as often as I would like but I have tried both mil-sim and hi-cap totting "speedsoft". I know which one I prefer. And I would be ready and willing to pay a lot more to get that as well. If I felt the games were going to be good, and the site was good then I would happily pay €50 for my day's entertainment (my copy of MW2 cost about that much, only took 6 hours to play and wasn't as much fun as a good day spent shooting at real people). I think there are others out there who feel the same way too.

A lot of people seem to come into airsoft and love it for a year or two, but then drift away because they can't take it to a new level. you can only play capture the flag around the pallets so many times before it gets boring. This leaves the site owners dependent on newer younger players for their business, and they will give them the games they want.

I am rambling a bit, but to get back to the statement I made at the start. The sport isn't dying, but it is in a rut. The money that is out there (which to be fair has taken a hit from the recession, and because it is after Christmas) is being spread too thinly, and isn't enough to allow sites to develop.

I remember when I got into this first I did some numbers on the back of an envelope and I reckoned a site would need 40-50 players a day to make a go of it. I would be surprised if anyone in the airsoft site business in Ireland is making any money.

Lemming

k99_64 wrote: »

But in Ireland its far far harder to do this (esp with the gun bags), the transport system in Britain is so much better than here its not even funny.

I'm going to jump on this point. First of all, the distances in the UK tend to be somewhat .... greater ... than here down to the simple geographic size of Ireland vs. the UK. On top of that, every site I have been to in the UK - with the exception of one (Brit-Tac CQB in Sheffield city centre) - has been in the @rse end of nowhere where public transport as an option would really be pushing it.

There is great transport between cities (but then again Ireland has a reasonably decent setup in that regard as well, albeit nowhere near as developed) after which it's a gradual devolution of options the further out you go.

From observation, there would appear to be a far greater push to sort car-pooling among folks, or somebody agreeing to do an end-run to pick somebody up from a bus station/stop.

Brabazone

I think Shiva is right on the mark here. I am setting up a site in Ballinasloe and the problem is advertising. How do you advertise airsoft in a way that doesn't attract all those handbag wavers. Last week I had to visit the local residents of the area where the site will be to explain what I was doing. Before setting out I decided I would put this to the residents as a kind of community project. The feed back I got was brilliant. I think when a project like this is explained in a positive manner with the emphasis on community, family and economic opportunity then people begin to look at in a different way. However in saying that I did have a problem with one resident but it was completely unrelated to airsoft.

If sites are to attract more people in the future then there needs to be a way to advertise to the wider public without the negative bias that is sometimes associated with it. I think the only way of doing this is by getting the public involved and promoting all that is good about airsoft. This isn't something that can be done over night. One simple thing I said to residents is that I would be holding a couple of fund-raising events for charity's. I think its the simple things like this that get the public interested and shows the good it can bring to the community.

Firekitten

Deleted User wrote: »

I think the main problem is the lack of "puntersoft" at sites i.e. You can't just turn up and rent on site, you need to organise beforehand. It's not seen as an option for large groups for birthdays, stag dos etc. to rent for a day.

That doesnt happen ANYWHERE

Nearly every airsoft site in europe is a case by case rental. This isnt paintball, the main market is existing players, and a few rentals starting. The turnup market isnt there to justify the investment by sites that dont make so much as it is...

Hivemind187

Things that have been done which were positive:

Charity days at venues advertised to airsofters.
Events like Salute and Dungannon
Measured interaction with the public media (responses to articles and radio/tv appearances).

Things which have been done which were negative:

"Sample skirmish days" in car parks.
Events like Toys-4-Big-Boys.
Damn near every piece of journalism that has appeared in the papers over the last 3-4 years.

It might seem like these examples are suggesting that we focus on putting ourselves out in the public eye but the truth is that every time we have gone off-the-beaten-path with regard to promotion or advertising it has bitten back at us - with the single exception of last years IAA piece in local newspapers.

The reason for this simple. YOU dont think it's scary but THEY do. No matter what efforts you make there will always be the uncomfortable feeling in the outsiders head that somewhere, somehow, airsoft will be the cause of a vague and unidentifiable problem.

Think of it this way. You go to a show like T4BB and see folks in uniforms and guns rushing about and putting on a show and you think:

"Ok, cool - but the guy at the back is wearing an OD rig with an ACU uniform, fail!".

The average punter thinks:

"Gun! GUN! That soldier has a GUN! There is a gun near my child!!!"

And immediately phones Joe.

This is because for an airsofter the frame of reference for these items and movements is entirely different to John-average. You see labels, motors and gucci ... they see the death, mayhem and fear from the 11 o'clock news.

It's all well and good to say "Yes but ..." and ramble on about how positive presentation will make things better but reality trumps good intentions every time. Positive stuff will be mostly overlooked (trust me) except by those with a vested interest and the negative will be the sole focus for everyone.

Dont believe me? The mods can probably direct you to around a hundred different threads which revolve around people bickering over some negative event or aspect. I sincerely doubt that they would find so many in which everyone is patting one another on the back - and thats on one forum on one website.

se conman

Before anyone goes off on one , I am being totally honest and not at all sarcastic when I ask this question.
Is it the general concencus that the best direction that airsoft in Ireland can take is to keep it's head down , stay under the radar and not ruffle any feathers for the foreseeable future ?If this is what it takes for me to keep my collection and play airsoft whenever I want , then so be it.
IMHO an average game is a lot better than no game at all.

Inari

It's not to keep heads in the sand, but rather to create better opportunities. If you advertise airsoft in the proper medium, where the demographic understands, it's all plus-points. If you advertise it based purely on numbers, you're in for a world of pain with the negative reactions.

Also, something to consider with advertising and articles is artistic licence. You're better off paying for an advert, rather than doing articles for it appears as you want it to.

I've said this before, but I'll say it again anyway...even though Airsoft is effectively playing with toy guns, it attracts an older demographic. The price tag, the rules & regulations of more serious play, the things that people prefer in Airsoft...they're all more mature. And on top of that, they're all married to (gross exaggeration used to make a point) the very same naysayers...so how can you promote it to them? Even the younger guys/girls who are into it, have their parents who are the very same naysayers (once again, exaggerated to make the point). I can guarantee that you all know someone who just 'Doesn't Understand' the fixation. It is for that reason that advertising is very sketchy.

If I was a retailer/site owner (which I'm not), my goal for getting more publicity would be two things:
A) Build up relationship with Airsofters. If they know the site/shop is there FOR them, with good customer service, and good knowlege (as well as competitive prices), and good facilities then people will be returning customers.

In order to advertise, I'd try and create an image of my own shop/site, rather than the Airsoft one. In order to do this, it would involve charity work, helping out local communities etc. Basically cast yourself in a good light, and if anyone rings joe it means you have more back up

Sperminator

Thanks to all for the replies to this topic. there are many good and valid points made. as i said i don't want this sport to dissapper, so why can't we come up with some ideas to get new and old players out to the battlefields, some sort of mass tourament or something, an other fun day or a big charity event held on a certain number of sites.

Scody94

Airsoft sites should gather and decide on a certain amoun open one weekend and the others the next and then evry second week end which would gather more players and sites in stead of havin 15 pol at every site we might have more

Brabazone

If site owners out there are interested in raising money for a charity I think The Haiti disaster fund would be a worth while cause.

Fallschirmjager

AirsoftManiac wrote: »

Airsoft sites should gather and decide on a certain amoun open one weekend and the others the next and then evry second week end which would gather more players and sites in stead of havin 15 pol at every site we might have more

i have to disagree. that is doomed for disaster and an ever decreasing circle of money for the sites. The site owners are in this to maximise profit and god bless each and every one of them. They offer a service...i pay if i like what i see.

why not let good old raw capitalism take its course...they compete for yours and my business and the strongest survive...when they get too big and slow, a leaner more aggressive competitor appears.

i think trying to artificially stimulate the market and prop up businesses, well, i think we have seen the results of that recently...and it isnt pretty when it fails.

again just my opinion...

Brabazone

Probably finish up doing more bad than good. If you eliminate competition between sites you effectively give them no incentive to develop as there would be no need to.

Stonewolf

There's always going to be a dip at this time of year.

On the subject of too many sites my advice is go to your favourite site more often, tell them what you like and don't like about the place and give them any suggestions you have to make it better.

Phractal

Hmmm. I think if we want better press... WE should let the media see how FRIENDLY it is. They show, lets say, a clip of a 'battle', THEN show the players all shaking hands, being friendly, etc to the other team. I think that would show Joe Public just how friendly the sport we love is. Thats just an idea though.

Masada

lol, so naive.

Phractal

Ah now Richie, was just an idea. A bit silly and naieve I know...

Upon seeing the initial 'battle' clip the average sheeple is bleating
'Oh no! Guns! BAAAAAAAD! Ban them! Make em illegal! BAAAAAAD! Terrorism! Somebodyt Please! Think of the children! BAAAAAD! Guns are BAAAAAAD!'

or

A marginally more sensible, but still foolish, sheeple is saying:
'Wha about the little ****ers in termotfeckin getting these yokes eh? Those little gurriers could take an eye out with one of them there dangerous yokes! They should be licenced or banned or somethin!'

Stonewolf

The media shows what gets the best headlines, you can have them film you shaking hands till your arms fall off but the only thing that will make the cut is the brappage.

Fallschirmjager

i think we are beating ourselves up. lets looks at what we have

a dozen or so sites
a dozen of so local shops
hundreds if not near a thousand players
around 200-300 very regular players
committed owners of shops and sites - some as their core businesses for the livelihood
a committed association
a committed association that managed to convince a civil service and unpopular govt that something gun shaped should not be banned...(think about that)
an airsoft population that is committed to the sport


we really need to sit back and enjoy this. we no longer have the fear that tomorrow airsoft will disappear, that the shops will go, that the sites will go.

no mean feat in just a few years. Now it may not move as fast as you want, or the direction you want and sure there are moans and groans, but there always are as soon as people get involved in anything. The harsh reality of everything perfect is it is fracked up as soon as people get involved!

If people believe there should be a 'thing' done, how about raising it at the IAA? Yes you will have to work for what you believe and convince them, the big question is do you have a plan you believe in and more importantly can convince me of?

So may i cordially suggest we all sit back or even better...go out next saturday. Worrying about airsoft will get us squat, typing here will (and i include myself as it happens) will do nothing...playing and therefore paying to play on a great site or in our shops (yes OUR shops) will invigorate us all. You spending your money on what you want...that will bring a smile to everyone faces...i want to play and pay on a site with an aeg i bought in a shop here with my money and i have a great day. Sounds pretty close to heaven to me...everyone wins.

again just my opinion.

thermo

If one of the main stumbling blocks for people is money or transport, why not start a thread so people can arrange lifts and split the petrol money?
It could work, eg could be;
in naas playing in hrta have 2 spaces in the car,,,,,,,,,,

.22 Lover

And then it becomes a matter of trust.

Private Snafu

thermo wrote: »

If one of the main stumbling blocks for people is money or transport, why not start a thread so people can arrange lifts and split the petrol money?
It could work, eg could be;
in naas playing in hrta have 2 spaces in the car,,,,,,,,,,

I could never inflict the amount of kit I bring to a skirmish on another person
In theory though its a great idea but like.22 lover said before me, its all about trust in the end!

Tigger

MacAonghusa wrote: »

A colleague at work has 15 real guns (in the US). Most (inc AKs) were less than $200! :eek: You'd be amazed how cheap you can buy some real guns in the US.

airsoft is more fun, if you shoot me with a real gun no one else will wanna play with you

Shiva

Tigger wrote: »

airsoft is more fun, if you shoot me with a real gun no one else will wanna play with you

Big Bubba in Cell 23A would probably be interested in playing with him....

sliabh

MacAonghusa wrote: »

A colleague at work has 15 real guns (in the US). Most (inc AKs) were less than $200! :eek: You'd be amazed how cheap you can buy some real guns in the US.

I would hardly treat the US as a normal case. To get an idea of what real guns really cost take a look here.

With total apologies to our mods for dragging this off topic.

Sperminator

ok once again thanks for the replies. now just wondering if the IAA would mind trying to set up a league (if possible). for example 4 (or whatever number) teams from each site compete agaist each other until or sites are down to 1 team, then the team is sent to one site to compete against an other team. until we're down to the last two teams who then battle it out to become all ireland airsoft champions.
i know its a mad idea, but worth putting out there.
also a charity event nation wide of Hatai is a good idea. could generate good press

PS could we just stick to airsoft and not real guns please

OzCam

I meant to say this last night, Shiva said more or less the same thing this afternoon: the advantage PB has is that they can splatter pink & orange paint over everything. That removes the realism from their appearance to the public, and makes it much easier for them to advertise.

The price we pay for our level of realism is that it looks scary to the public (as Ronan also said, in his best post for yonks ). Other than doing all the charity days we can, I don't see a solution to that problem in the short term.

We all seem to agree that concentrating on events where people will expect to see uniforms & guns works pretty well for us. Most of the audience is therefore self-selecting.

Please let's not get into a debate about relative energy levels & bruises, it's true but not relevant to this question about appearances. Safer and much cheaper are valid marketing points, but we still have to get past the OMG guns!!!:eek: issue.


The other quick thing I wanted to mention is that lots of posters ask for MilSim events – but when the site operators put them on, you we have to turn up. I know it's difficult at the moment, but if we don't support the MilSims, the sites won't keep on making the effort indefinitely.