Can't turn off water supply

Sanguine Fan

I'm trying to fix the flush on a downstairs toilet but I can't turn off the water supply into the cistern.

I turned off the mains tap but it did not stop the water flow to the downstairs loo. I checked the attic and sure enough I found an outflow pipe from the main tank. I turned this off, but no luck. (It feeds the en suite bathroom upstairs but does not connect to the downstairs loo.)

If the water supply into the downstairs loo is not coming from the mains supply or from the tank in the attic, where is the source?

We live in an early eighties detached house. We seem to be only ones on our small estate to have a downstairs loo under the stairs so the neighbours can't help.

Any ideas?

Jumpy

Does switching the mains tap turn off the water to your Kitchen sink?

aujopimur

You may need to turn off the mains on street/road as these toilets were often tapped into the mains as it passed by the house.
Take this opportunity to fit an isolation valvefor the toilet.

Sanguine Fan

Jumpy wrote: »

Does switching the mains tap turn off the water to your Kitchen sink?

Yes it turns almost everything off, except the en suite which is fed from the attic tank. (And of course the downstairs loo.)

Sanguine Fan

aujopimur wrote: »

You may need to turn off the mains on street/road as these toilets were often tapped into the mains as it passed by the house.

There is a manhole in the footpath outside our house. It is several yards away from the downstairs loo though.

Suddenly this seems like a much bigger job than I expected. :eek:

Davy

Sanguine Fan wrote: »

There is a manhole in the footpath outside our house. It is several yards away from the downstairs loo though.

Suddenly this seems like a much bigger job than I expected. :eek:

The valve wouldn't be in a man hole, it would be a small little flap about 100mm square. If you can turn this off (you might need a plumber with a key) then you can fit a inline service valve onto the half inch pipe that feeds the cistern, so if you need tot turn the water off to the cistern again, you can do it from under the cistern.

Sanguine Fan

Davy wrote: »

The valve wouldn't be in a man hole, it would be a small little flap about 100mm square.

Thanks for that. Any idea where this valve might be? Inside or outside the house?

If aujopimur is correct then whoever installed the toilet must have connected the cistern inflow pipe to the main water pipe coming into the house, but at some point before the mains tap.

The cistern inflow pipe emerges from a hollow wall. So perhaps this valve is in there somewhere?

(I am starting to wonder if the easiest solution would be to connect a length of flexible rubber piping to the cistern inflow pipe when I disconnect it, and let the water run into the bowl. I hate wasting water but at least that would allow me to fix the original problem with the flushing mechanism.)

Davy

Sanguine Fan wrote: »

Thanks for that. Any idea where this valve might be? Inside or outside the house?

Just outside your boundary wall, normally at the end of the driveway.

Sanguine Fan wrote: »

If aujopimur is correct then whoever installed the toilet must have connected the cistern inflow pipe to the main water pipe coming into the house, but at some point before the mains tap.

The cistern inflow pipe emerges from a hollow wall. So perhaps this valve is in there somewhere?

(I am starting to wonder if the easiest solution would be to connect a length of flexible rubber piping to the cistern inflow pipe when I disconnect it, and let the water run into the bowl. I hate wasting water but at least that would allow me to fix the original problem with the flushing mechanism.)

If its connected to the mains, then by the time you disconnect it, and reconnect it, their would be a considerable amount of water on the floor by then. You need to work out if its actually connected to the mains. It might be fed from the WST and just tapped of a fed to the washing machine or similar.

If they took it off the mains they should have installed a valve. Its a pet hate of mine when people move kitchens and just extended the mains, rather then do a proper job. Often leaving the stopcock hidden behind a press rather than move it to the new sink location.

sullzz

Sanguine Fan wrote: »

(I am starting to wonder if the easiest solution would be to connect a length of flexible rubber piping to the cistern inflow pipe when I disconnect it, and let the water run into the bowl.)

you dont want to that , if the cold feed to the cisternis connected to the incoming mains the pressure could be huge, and once you disconnect that pipe there is no going back.
what you need to do is find the outside stopcock and close it , it is usualy located outside the garden on the footpath it has a 4" roud lid with uisce on it , in order to shut this you need a water key which are available in most hardware shops.
if shutting this does not turn the water off straight away just run the water at your bath to drain the storage tank in your attic as the water has to be coming from somewhere.
and as the other guys said , take this opportunity to fit an isolationvalve on the pipework.

danjo-xx

Originally Posted by Jumpy
Does switching the mains tap turn off the water to your Kitchen sink?

Yes it turns almost everything off, except the en suite which is fed from the attic tank. (And of course the downstairs loo.)

Unless I'm missing something surely all he has to do is shut off the cold fill to the tank in the hotpress!

Davy

danjo-xx wrote: »

Unless I'm missing something surely all he has to do is shut off the cold fill to the tank in the hotpress!

It may be fed from the mains, before the stop valve under the kitchen sink. So only may to shut it off would be from the road.

items

I'd sooner work with a live pipe than go near a road stopcock that hasn't been touched in years, honestly job will turn out to be a fairly big one if you happen to have a seized road stopcock, its not worth taking risk for such a small job.

Working with live pipes aint uncommon, many ways around it, if your brave enough you could cut pipe while live and slip a valve over pipe, only takes a matter of seconds but you have to know what your doing, you could test the idea by disconnecting an outside tap and redoing again. Its easy to lower pressure of mains to work from live, just open any mains taps, kitchen / outside etc, pressure will then be low enough not to make a mess should it take you long to pop fitting over open pipe.

If your not so brave, if pipe up to toilet is plastic, you can limit / stop flow by clamping a vice grips to pipe, if pipe is copper, you can by a can of pipe freeze which will leave a frost plug in pipe, enough to stop any water from flowing and it will give you some time to put valve on, last time I worked off a live main I had 20 mins, all you have to do is take pressure off by opeing some taps.

Try not to close down road stopcock, only when all else fails should you use it.

mossie110

Sanguine Fan wrote: »

I'm trying to fix the flush on a downstairs toilet but I can't turn off the water supply into the cistern.

I turned off the mains tap but it did not stop the water flow to the downstairs loo. I checked the attic and sure enough I found an outflow pipe from the main tank. I turned this off, but no luck. (It feeds the en suite bathroom upstairs but does not connect to the downstairs loo.)

If the water supply into the downstairs loo is not coming from the mains supply or from the tank in the attic, where is the source?

We live in an early eighties detached house. We seem to be only ones on our small estate to have a downstairs loo under the stairs so the neighbours can't help.

Any ideas?

hi there before you start cutting pipe and digging up the road, please check for all valves, from the attic to the toilet under the stairs, some good plumber place a valve on the pipe leading to the toilet (silver in colour which can be turned off the just a quater of a turn with a flat screwdriver.) which turns the water off going to the toilet.
look at the tank in the attic there may be another feed which you may over looked, if you turn the water off a the mains (which should be located outside the back or front door which shuts the water coming into your home (kitchen cold water tap will stop running first). this will also stop water entering the big tank in the attic, then i would turn on all the taps up stairs, this will drain the tank in the attic, if at this point the toilet under the stairs still has water going to, then look in the hotpress and turn off all valves you can see. look very closely as some valves can be missed as they are hidden under or behind cloths.
best of luck
mossie.

items

mossie110 wrote: »

hi there before you start cutting pipe and digging up the road, please check for all valves, from the attic to the toilet under the stairs, some good plumber place a valve on the pipe leading to the toilet (silver in colour which can be turned off the just a quater of a turn with a flat screwdriver.) which turns the water off going to the toilet.
look at the tank in the attic there may be another feed which you may over looked, if you turn the water off a the mains (which should be located outside the back or front door which shuts the water coming into your home (kitchen cold water tap will stop running first). this will also stop water entering the big tank in the attic, then i would turn on all the taps up stairs, this will drain the tank in the attic, if at this point the toilet under the stairs still has water going to, then look in the hotpress and turn off all valves you can see. look very closely as some valves can be missed as they are hidden under or behind cloths.



mossie.

Good point, just to add for anyone reading,

Its now a requirement to fit an isolation valve before ball type / floating valves, if you have a plumber round fitting attic tanks, toilets etc they should be fitting valves before it as per regulation, fitting an isolation valve before a float valve saves all kinds of grief, this is why its now regulation to have one fitted.

Sanguine Fan

mossie110 wrote: »

before you start cutting pipe and digging up the road, please check for all valves, from the attic to the toilet under the stairs, some good plumber place a valve on the pipe leading to the toilet (silver in colour which can be turned off the just a quater of a turn with a flat screwdriver.) which turns the water off going to the toilet.

I am reluctant to interfere with the water supply outside the house. The only possible entry point I can see is a large manhole on the footpath. And by manhole I mean a hole big enough for someone to enter. I have turned off every tap I can find: the mains tap, all taps in the hot press, and one I found on a pipe coming from the tank in the attic. And still the water keeps flowing into the downstairs cistern.

I'll probably end up disconnecting the inflow pipe from the cistern, while simultaneously reducing the pressure as items suggests. (I might even try it very early in the morning. Because of the water shortage the pressure goes down during the night.) It may get messy but it seems like the only practical solution.

Thanks for all the suggestions guys.

demanufactured

pipe freeze.