Taliban - "Holy Crap, I've Been Shot By A Jesus Rifle" LOL

Biggins

Ever hold/fire an American semi-automatic and wonder how the serial numbers come about?
Read on! :pac:

U.S. Military Weapons Inscribed With Secret 'Jesus' Bible Codes

Coded references to New Testament Bible passages about Jesus Christ are inscribed on high-powered rifle sights provided to the United States military by a Michigan company, an ABC News investigation has found.

The sights are used by U.S. troops in Iraq and Afghanistan and in the training of Iraqi and Afghan soldiers. The maker of the sights, Trijicon, has a $660 million multi-year contract to provide up to 800,000 sights to the Marine Corps, and additional contracts to provide sights to the U.S. Army.
U.S. military rules specifically prohibit the proselytizing of any religion in Iraq or Afghanistan and were drawn up in order to prevent criticism that the U.S. was embarked on a religious "Crusade" in its war against al Qaeda and Iraqi insurgents.

One of the citations on the gun sights, 2COR4:6, is an apparent reference to Second Corinthians 4:6 of the New Testament, which reads: "For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ."

Other references include citations from the books of Revelation, Matthew and John dealing with Jesus as "the light of the world." John 8:12, referred to on the gun sights as JN8:12, reads, "Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."
Trijicon confirmed to ABCNews.com that it adds the biblical codes to the sights sold to the U.S. military. Tom Munson, director of sales and marketing for Trijicon, which is based in Wixom, Michigan, said the inscriptions "have always been there" and said there was nothing wrong or illegal with adding them. Munson said the issue was being raised by a group that is "not Christian." The company has said the practice began under its founder, Glyn Bindon, a devout Christian from South Africa who was killed in a 2003 plane crash.

'It violates the Constitution'
The company's vision is described on its Web site: "Guided by our values, we endeavor to have our products used wherever precision aiming solutions are required to protect individual freedom." "We believe that America is great when its people are good," says the Web site. "This goodness has been based on Biblical standards throughout our history, and we will strive to follow those morals."

Spokespeople for the U.S. Army and the Marine Corps both said their services were unaware of the biblical markings. They said officials were discussing what steps, if any, to take in the wake of the ABCNews.com report. It is not known how many Trijicon sights are currently in use by the U.S. military.

The biblical references appear in the same type font and size as the model numbers on the company's Advanced Combat Optical Guides, called the ACOG.

A photo on a Department of Defense Web site shows Iraqi soldiers being trained by U.S. troops with a rifle equipped with the bible-coded sights.
"It's wrong, it violates the Constitution, it violates a number of federal laws," said Michael "Mikey" Weinstein of the Military Religious Freedom Foundation, an advocacy group that seeks to preserve the separation of church and state in the military.

'Firearms of Jesus Christ'
"It allows the Mujahedeen, the Taliban, al Qaeda and the insurrectionists and jihadists to claim they're being shot by Jesus rifles," he said. Weinstein, an attorney and former Air Force officer, said many members of his group who currently serve in the military have complained about the markings on the sights. He also claims they've told him that commanders have referred to weapons with the sights as "spiritually transformed firearm of Jesus Christ."

He said coded biblical inscriptions play into the hands of "those who are calling this a Crusade."

According to a government contracting watchdog group, fedspending.org, Trijicon had more than $100 million in government contracts in fiscal year 2008. The Michigan company won a $33 million Pentagon contract in July, 2009 for a new machine gun optic, according to Defense Industry Daily. The company's earnings from the U.S. military jumped significantly after 2005, when it won a $660 million long-term contract to supply the Marine Corps with sights.
"This is probably the best example of violation of the separation of church and state in this country," said Weinstein. "It's literally pushing fundamentalist Christianity at the point of a gun against the people that we're fighting. We're emboldening an enemy."

Source: http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/us-military-weapons-inscribed-secret-jesus-bible-codes/story?id=9575794&page=1

Instant Karma

Gott mit uns

MaybeLogic

Religious fundamentalists in charge of the industrial/military complex?
God help us.

NothingMan

It would all just be better if they had these guys.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNt8_IMlaho

TheZohanS

Please don't turn this into an America bashing thread.

You can comment on the military and the law makers but lets not start bitchin' about all Americans.

ChemOC

Boom!!! Christ Shot!

Biggins

TheZohan wrote: »

Please don't turn this into an America bashing thread.

You can comment on the military and the law makers but lets not start bitchin' about all Americans.

Agreed. Not my intention at all.
Thought it was an interesting quirky fact of the battles with the nutty Taliban.
Lord knows (oops, better not say that - O' too late ) they don't need another excuse to go even wackier.

sidneykidney

Am i right in thinking that if your being shot at,your really NOT thinking...."ohhhh i wonder what the serial number on that gun is"....:o

ChemOC

sidneykidney wrote: »

Am i right in thinking that if your being shot at,your really NOT thinking...."ohhhh i wonder what the serial number on that gun is"....:o

Agreed, but the Taliban will clearly use this as a method of encouraging Jihad and further bloodshed in Afghanistan. It would be quite easy to recruit young men with this sort of Sh*ie The Taliban have no respect for life.

c - 13

Would make a great promotional video for the military

*Bang*
Brawny Soldier: "The power of christ compels you motherf*cker"

the_syco

"It's wrong, it violates the Constitution, it violates a number of federal laws," said Michael "Mikey" Weinstein of the Military Religious Freedom Foundation, an advocacy group that seeks to preserve the separation of church and state in the military.

Eh, no. It doens't violate the US Constitution. Also, the money Trijicon received for these did have "In God We Trust." on it...

In God We Trust :P

This just shows how easy it is to make randon serial/part numbers mean something the manufacturers didn't intend.

/thread

MaybeLogic

Deleted User wrote: »

This just shows how easy it is to make randon serial/part numbers mean something the manufacturers didn't intend.

/thread

It says in the report the company intentionally put the biblical quotes there.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

MaybeLogic wrote: »

Religious fundamentalists in charge of the industrial/military complex?
God help us.

In charge of the world more like it...


Religions, there should be an outright ban on all religions... simple as.

Buford T Justice

Deleted User wrote: »

This just shows how easy it is to make randon serial/part numbers mean something the manufacturers didn't intend.

/thread

Yeah, Conspiracy theory anyone?

Morlar

Instant Karma wrote: »

Gott mit uns

During WWI they used to shout back 'Yeah We got kittens too'

ChemOC wrote: »

Boom!!! Christ Shot!

wes

I was under the impression that the US government claimed to be a secular state, and it is also pretty hypocritical of a government that claims to be fighting a war against Religous extremism, to have there weapons covered in Biblical quotes, and not to mention it is a massive propoganda own goal. The Taliban and other Islamist extremists groups can easily use this as evidence of the US's crusade against Muslims, and get more people to fight for them.

So basically, anyway you look at it, the entire thing is incredibly stupid, and may even cost the lives of US soliders, by increasing the ranks of the people there fighting.

Honestly, I would have taught the US government and military would be smarter than this, especially after the mess that was the Iraq war, when they were looking for imaginary WMDs.

MaybeLogic

Rowen Savory Missionary wrote: »

In charge of the world more like it...


Religions, there should be an outright ban on all religions... simple as.

Amen to that.

MaybeLogic

wes wrote: »

I was under the impression that the US government claimed to be a secular state, and it is also pretty hypocritical of a government that claims to be fighting a war against Religous extremism, to have there weapons covered in Biblical quotes, and not to mention it is a massive propoganda own goal. The Taliban and other Islamist extremists groups can easily use this as evidence of the US's crusade against Muslims, and get more people to fight for them.

So basically, anyway you look at it, the entire thing is incredibly stupid, and may even cost the lives of US soliders, by increasing the ranks of the people there fighting.

Honestly, I would have taught the US government and military would be smarter than this, especially after the mess that was the Iraq war, when they were looking for imaginary WMDs.

It's probably permitted to inflame passions on the other side thus perpetuating the conflict,which enriches the pockets and feeds the savagery of those in charge.

wes

wes wrote: »

I was under the impression that the US government claimed to be a secular state, and it is also pretty hypocritical of a government that claims to be fighting a war against Religous extremism, to have there weapons covered in Biblical quotes, and not to mention it is a massive propoganda own goal. The Taliban and other Islamist extremists groups can easily use this as evidence of the US's crusade against Muslims, and get more people to fight for them.

So basically, anyway you look at it, the entire thing is incredibly stupid, and may even cost the lives of US soliders, by increasing the ranks of the people there fighting.

Honestly, I would have taught the US government and military would be smarter than this, especially after the mess that was the Iraq war, when they were looking for imaginary WMDs.

I don't think the US has ever been secular, after all the phrase "in god we trust" is the official motto of the US.

MaybeLogic

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't think the US has ever been secular, after all the phrase "in god we trust" is very prominant on the US seal.

I think the original constitution was secular ,and it was certainly the intention of the Founding Fathers that the nation be secular, but this notion has been usurped over the years by the fundamentalists.

wes

MaybeLogic wrote: »

It's probably permitted to inflame passions on the other side thus perpetuating the conflict,which enriches the pockets and feeds the savagery of those in charge.

Well, I would think that in theory at least that the US government and miltary, wouldn't want more of there soldiers being killed, but stuff like this make me genuinelly question there commitment to the safety of there own troops. I already know there not too bothered about other people, but to put there own soldiers in danger for no good reason like this is ether like you say to perpetuate the conflict, or sheer incopetence.

GavRedKing

A big meh from me anyway, if its not the solider's personally decorating there guns with slogans I dont see how the U.S. Army can be held accountable if the sight manfacturer has put this on scopes/optics.

Bad press for the U.S. Army, yes, blaming them for the religious meanings on the equipment, no.

wes

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't think the US has ever been secular, after all the phrase "in god we trust" is the official motto of the US.

I was under the impression that the "In God We Trust" business was an up yours of sorts to communists, that just kind of stuck.

However, I taught the US at least claimed to be largely secular, albeit with some contradictions like the above, and was effectively in the Middle East, figting in the name of secular democracy.

Biggins

Its a bit ironic to be honest.
Chances are, the Taliban have gotten hold of some of the same weapons at some stage.
I can't see them not using them still.

The codes could be enscribed on anything from tv's to condoms (cum to think of it - the latter would be funny!)

aDeener

the_syco wrote: »

Eh, no. It doens't violate the US Constitution. Also, the money Trijicon received for these did have "In God We Trust." on it...

In God We Trust :P

Hope youre not giving out about that, that quotation saved kris kringle!

biko

TheZohan wrote: »

Please don't turn this into an America bashing thread.

Damn Christians, I hate them


In general a bit stupid but the numbers have been there since the start of the company.
I think they should remove them though.

ejmaztec

wes wrote: »

I was under the impression that the "In God We Trust" business was an up yours of sorts to communists, that just kind of stuck.

However, I taught the US at least claimed to be largely secular, albeit with some contradictions like the above, and was effectively in the Middle East, figting in the name of secular democracy.

I think that's been around a lot longer than communism.

The motto aside, the US is secular.

MaybeLogic

Biggins wrote: »

The codes could be enscribed on anything from tv's to condoms (cum to think of it - the latter would be funny!)

Something about 'entering paradise' would be appropriate.:D

sceptre

wes wrote: »

I was under the impression that the "In God We Trust" business was an up yours of sorts to communists, that just kind of stuck.

Yes and no. It was adopted officially as the national motto in 1956. In 1955 Congress mandated that it appear on all coins and notes and specifically mentioned putting it on to remind people that the US trusts in God. But it had been on most coins since 1864. Religion was big during the civil war. So it had been around for about 100 years, then they pushed it as an up yours to communists and since it's officially been the motto.

NothingMan

Biggins wrote: »

The codes could be enscribed on anything from tv's to condoms (cum to think of it - the latter would be funny!)

That just gave me an idea. Put books in Braille on condoms. Then if prostitutes can learn to read with their vaginas they'd be able study while they work and perhaps one day they can get out of the prostitution racket.


Patent Pending!

ejmaztec

NothingMan wrote: »

That just gave me an idea. Put books in Braille on condoms. Then if prostitutes can learn to read with their vaginas they'd be able study while they work and perhaps one day they can get out of the prostitution racket.


Patent Pending!

That's a novel idea.

wes

ejmaztec wrote: »

I think that's been around a lot longer than communism.

The motto aside, the US is secular.

Look like it origins are from the Civil war:

In God We Trust: The Motto

**EDIT**
Just read sceptre's post, so looks like I wasn't totally wrong.
**EDIT**

Morlar

ejmaztec wrote: »

That's a novel idea.

I am sure there are some who could even read 2 or 3 books at a time. Thus reducing the overall study time required to complete their course of studies.

ejmaztec

Morlar wrote: »

I am sure there are some who could even read 2 or 3 books at a time. Thus reducing the overall study time required to complete their course of studies.

Isn't that a crammer course, or a new slant on rapid reading?


It makes "I'm just off to the library" a lot more interesting.

Morlar

ejmaztec wrote: »

Isn't that a crammer course, or a new slant on rapid reading?

I believe so, also forgot to say grinds can be arranged if necessary.

ejmaztec

Morlar wrote: »

I believe so, also forgot to say grinds can be arranged if necessary.

...and the endings in some books are a bit of an anti-climax.

Manic Moran

wes wrote: »

I was under the impression that the US government claimed to be a secular state, and it is also pretty hypocritical of a government that claims to be fighting a war against Religous extremism, to have there weapons covered in Biblical quotes, and not to mention it is a massive propoganda own goal. The Taliban and other Islamist extremists groups can easily use this as evidence of the US's crusade against Muslims, and get more people to fight for them.

So basically, anyway you look at it, the entire thing is incredibly stupid, and may even cost the lives of US soliders, by increasing the ranks of the people there fighting.

I don't think so. The biblical references on Trijicon sights have been there since day 1, this isn't a new discovery (though maybe it is to the mass media, but we gun nuts have always known about it), we were using them in Iraq when I was there and over the last six or seven years, there has not been as much of a peep of opposition propoganda or complaint in all this time. It's, in effect, as harmful as a US soldier going into battle wearing a crucifix or star of David under his ACUs. He represents the US nation and government whilst adorned with the 'wrong' religious symbolism, even though you don't know it to look at him. Could it give the wrong impression? Sure. Is it a problem? No.

Frankly, I think people are going to be far more liable to formulate their opinions on me over whether or not I'm pointing my rifle at them than what is written on tiny inscriptions on the side which nobody can read unless you pick up the rifle and examine it from a range of about six inches.

Now, is there an issue with it fundamentally? I'll grant there likely is. Really, government equipment shouldn't have anything specifically religious like bible references on it. The molehill does exist, and should be flattened out. But it's not Mt Everest.

NTM

citizen_p

they have it on their money, why not a gun.
so what if they use these on their sghts, itdosnt really make a diffrence to the person getting shot. as long as the sight helps you shoot straight it shouldnt matter.

InReality

It would be a smart move from them to get a new supplier.
As the gun itself belongs to the US govt , its its similar to having a religous image on a soldiers uniform in my view.

Overheal

wes wrote: »

I was under the impression that the US government claimed to be a secular state, and it is also pretty hypocritical of a government that claims to be fighting a war against Religous extremism, to have there weapons covered in Biblical quotes, and not to mention it is a massive propoganda own goal.

Thats really over-stretching the truth I think. My reading of the article suggests the Military [at large] was unaware of this or gave it any though. Armory officers and all may have been aware of it, sure. I doubt its something the Brass asked Trijicon to inscribe on the equipment they were ordering.

The Taliban and other Islamist extremists groups can easily use this as evidence of the US's crusade against Muslims, and get more people to fight for them.

So basically, anyway you look at it, the entire thing is incredibly stupid, and may even cost the lives of US soliders, by increasing the ranks of the people there fighting.

Unfortunately. For this and many reasons the rules regarding religious iconography in the Military were re-drafted some time ago.

Honestly, I would have taught [sic] the US government and military would be smarter than this, especially after the mess that was the Iraq war, when they were looking for imaginary WMDs. [/Irrelevant Snipe - Over]

I would blame Trijicon for that though, not the Military. I doubt either of them did this without the best intentions though. Admittedly, its a very poetic sentiment, that even as an Atheist I could at least appreciate. The arms company clearly acted without considering potential repercussions though.

ScumLord

Manic Moran wrote: »

It's, in effect, as harmful as a US soldier going into battle wearing a crucifix or star of David under his ACUs. He represents the US nation and government whilst adorned with the 'wrong' religious symbolism, even though you don't know it to look at him. Could it give the wrong impression? Sure. Is it a problem? No.

I don't agree, It's a soldiers personal choice what he wears under his uniform. This kind of thing shows the religious leanings of the people sending those soldiers out to kill or be killed. It shows that there's an underlining religious fundamentalism at the heart of the US military. Fundamentalist have no respect for human life and no concept of logical thought.

I really don't understand how people can mix guns and god, it's just madness, it makes no sense, it's hypocritical and any country where this is common place is just full of crazies.

wes

Manic Moran wrote: »

I don't think so. The biblical references on Trijicon sights have been there since day 1, this isn't a new discovery (though maybe it is to the mass media, but we gun nuts have always known about it), we were using them in Iraq when I was there and over the last six or seven years, there has not been as much of a peep of opposition propoganda or complaint in all this time. It's, in effect, as harmful as a US soldier going into battle wearing a crucifix or star of David under his ACUs. He represents the US nation and government whilst adorned with the 'wrong' religious symbolism, even though you don't know it to look at him. Could it give the wrong impression? Sure. Is it a problem? No.

Well, if it was known, then I find it doubly troubling that the US miltary didn't do anything about it.

As for opposition propoganda, I don't think they knew about, but now that it is well known, you can be sure they will be using it to great effect, and there really is no reason for those Bible quote to be there either way. At best there pointless, and at worst a propoganda gift for the other guy.

Manic Moran wrote: »

Frankly, I think people are going to be far more liable to formulate their opinions on me over whether or not I'm pointing my rifle at them than what is written on tiny inscriptions on the side which nobody can read unless you pick up the rifle and examine it from a range of about six inches.

Which is true enough, but now that this is out there, you can be sure it will be used as recruitment by the other guy, who now has a little more "proof" of a "Western Crusade".

Manic Moran wrote: »

Now, is there an issue with it fundamentally? I'll grant there likely is. Really, government equipment shouldn't have anything specifically religious like bible references on it. The molehill does exist, and should be flattened out. But it's not Mt Everest.

Well, the issue here is that the US miltary is fighting a counter insurgency, and something like this at best doesn't help, and will be used against the US, and there is no good reason for it especially, since it was something that you have said was known, it could have been fixed ages ago and be a non-issue. It reminds of the US drones that have no encryption, it was something that was well known and no one did anything about it.

wes

Overheal wrote: »

Thats really over-stretching the truth I think. My reading of the article suggests the Military [at large] was unaware of this or gave it any though. Armory officers and all may have been aware of it, sure. I doubt its something the Brass asked Trijicon to inscribe on the equipment they were ordering.

Why didn't the officers infrom there higher ups then, and get new weapons to have the Biblical quotes removed? If the military is suppose to secular, then I would expect them to have such thing removed.

Overheal wrote: »

Unfortunately. For this and many reasons the rules regarding religious iconography in the Military were re-drafted some time ago.

Well, if people can't keep there Religion to themselves in a secular miltary, then unfortunately, you will need such rules. The Turkish miltary similary has stricts rules about this kind of thing as well for example.

Overheal wrote: »

I would blame Trijicon for that though, not the Military. I doubt either of them did this without the best intentions though. Admittedly, its a very poetic sentiment, that even as an Atheist I could at least appreciate. The arms company clearly acted without considering potential repercussions though.

Seem to me that Trijicon were at best pretty stupid about the whole thing imho, and the miltary should perhaps keep a better eye on there contracters as well.

Overheal

I really don't understand how people can mix guns and god, it's just madness

Its a Scope, not a Gun. The Gun has no such religious marking.

Seem to me that Trijicon were at best pretty stupid about the whole thing imho, and the miltary should perhaps keep a better eye on there contracters as well.

Indeed, but admittedly this was an Easter Egg.... no Irony intended.

Instant Karma

Overheal wrote: »

Its a Scope, not a Gun. The Gun has no such religious marking.

Your being pedantic now. Sticking up for your country is as noble as a grape and all, but as an atheist surely you see the problem here?

wes

Overheal wrote: »

Indeed, but admittedly this was an Easter Egg.... no Irony intended.

An Easter Egg, that can be exploited by the other guy to great effect against there own nations troops.

Manic Moran

ScumLord wrote: »

I don't agree, It's a soldiers personal choice what he wears under his uniform.

Actually, there are limits. For example, certain tattoos are banned, even if they will never be seen unless the guy's walking around without a T-shirt. Even wearing civilian attire off-duty is technically a privilige which can be revoked. The wearing of religious items can be proscribed by military law, but they are left alone because, basically, the harm caused by something that nobody can see except in very unique circumstances vs the morale boost is pretty insignificant.

This kind of thing shows the religious leanings of the people sending those soldiers out to kill or be killed. It shows that there's an underlining religious fundamentalism at the heart of the US military. Fundamentalist have no respect for human life and no concept of logical thought.

That's a little excessive, isn't it? Firstly, the marking was placed by the company, not by the US military. Secondly, religion is important to most any military. Ireland has a military chaplain's corps, do you really think it's a fundamentalist problem and Irish soldiers have no respect for human life? Or that it's hypocritical for an organisation whose primary purpose is to kill people and break things to have a religious support structure?

I really don't understand how people can mix guns and god, it's just madness, it makes no sense, it's hypocritical and any country where this is common place is just full of crazies.

Faith is important to some people. Be it guns, swords, pens, whatever, people with faith will generally hope to be guided into the right path by their chosen deity. At least, that's the impression I get, I'm more on the unbeliever side of the path.

Well, if it was known, then I find it doubly troubling that the US miltary didn't do anything about it.

Didn't seem to be doing any harm. Kindof a thoughtful touch, if anything.

At best there pointless, and at worst a propoganda gift for the other guy.

I agree with you, but the only reason it's a propoganda gift is because someone made a 'breathtaking discovery' and posted it all over the news thinking it was of critical importance saying "It's a propoganda coup for the opposition!." From the propoganda point of view, do you really think they wouldn't make as much meat of a chaplain's service in Afghanistan or a photo of a chaplain's insignia on his uniform? You can find photographs of the evil religious crusaders asking for their false God's blessing before going on mission in Afghanistan on the official Army website, for crying out loud.

NTM

ScumLord

Manic Moran wrote: »

That's a little excessive, isn't it?

Well I don't think so any more to be honest. I used to be more agnostic and open to thinking that people can believe whatever they like it doesn't matter, but when you see the religious trying to push their agenda onto others and try and clamp down on freedoms because they believe things they don't like are evil because they read it in an ancient fairy tail then it becomes apparent that their a danger to me and others.

Faith is important to some people. Be it guns, swords, pens, whatever, people with faith will generally hope to be guided into the right path by their chosen deity. At least, that's the impression I get, I'm more on the unbeliever side of the path.

Faith should be personal. If someone accepts god then the ten commandments are their personal rules. I don't mind any faith living their life to a moral code, it's admirable. It's when they go out demanding blood, or wanting restrictions on freedoms is when it gets out of hand. That doesn't happen here much in Europe but it does in those fundamentalist parts of the world like the middle east and the USA. As a Christian it's against your religion to kill, the extreme fundamentalist Americans just seem to willing to aggressively defend their faith, it just doesn't strike me as very Christian.

Overheal

Instant Karma wrote: »

Your being pedantic now. Sticking up for your country is as noble as a grape and all, but as an atheist surely you see the problem here?

Im not sure its Pedantic, rather Semantic. These are Scopes, used for improving vision, with Serial numbers which relate to New Testament quotes which mirror this symbolism: "For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ."

"Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."

You have to concede, its a lot different, than if these were serial numbers being printed out of a Rifle Manufactory, and the referred quotes were more along the lines of Fire Brimstone and Vengeful Fury, bla bla bla.

/Where the hell is Jakkass?

surely you see the problem here?

Of course, I thought others had mentioned it quite clearly; Taliban and Opposition forces will ultimately turn this to their advantages as a rally call against US Forces. To say they don't know about it is kinda silly. We may have the image of savages up in the mountains hiding in caves eating berries but they are trained and coordinated, and are not blind to keeping a pulse on International Media sources. They knew about it before After Hours did.

The supreme irony though, is that the Activist group that has been plastering this all over the blogosphere is going to ultimately be the group that brought this to the level of Attention that will result in more deaths.

Mediocrity

TheZohan wrote: »

Please don't turn this into an America bashing thread.

You can comment on the military and the law makers but lets not start bitchin' about all Americans.

Please don't turn this thread into a Christianity hate-fest: the last acceptable predjudice.