Is the zeitgeist changing - or is it just me?

herbiemcc

Is it just me or is something really changing?

Although raised in a protestant home in N.Ireland I never really 'got it' and became officially atheist probably as soon as I discovered the term.

I have been thinking and talking more and more about my atheist views of religion over the past few months and notice other people becoming increasingly willing to discuss it.

I was out last night with my g'friend a few mates when she mentioned that I'm an atheist. Normally nobody would really flinch but suddenly one of her mates that I don't know too well got bright eyed and started quizzing me. What was different was that it was in a sort of excited 'wow you're actually saying the taboo' kind of way.

I think there are so many more people who are at least non-religious and essentially atheist if they could only have the courage to admit it to themselves.

I wonder is this feeling being accelerated/underpinned by Hitchens/Harris et al or are they riding an already forming wave of anti-religion sentiment whereby people are just tired of getting blown up or having their lives dictated by unappointed private interest groups?

I loved a line by Marcus Brigstocke - (to paraphrase) "When all you religious people having finished blowing everything up and killing people, could the rest of us please have our planet back ??"

Whatever is causing it I think it's going in the right direction so that perhaps there will come a point of critical mass where enough people 'come out' that religion has nowhere left to go but end up alongside the astrology column where it belongs.

Zillah

The zeitgeist is always changing, such is its nature.

But yes, you are correct, rationality is once again gaining a foothold in the Western world. The religious in America might be getting a hell of a lot louder but I sincerely doubt they are becoming more numerous. As I said in a fairly recent post, religion in Europe is doomed. The current generation of young people overwhelmingly have little more than pretensions to religion, and will completely fail to inculcate religious belief in the next generation. No one in my age group would realistically describe themselves as a religious person, at most they might awkwardly describe themselves as "spiritual" and hastily change the subject.

As to why? I think a lot of it can be laid at the feet of outspoken atheists such as Dawkins, Hitchens, Harris and Dennet. They may not be winning converts with their confrontational rhetoric, but they are certainly cracking open religion's primary defense, aka "this thing is too special to criticise". Which leads to most people, who ultimately are capable of being quite reasonable at times, thinking "Wait a second, all these stories about magic people and angels and stuff are very silly". Which sounds like such a simple little notion, but is ultimately one that can and quite probably will throw off the shackles of millennia of repressive insanity.

hiorta

Simply, the evolving thoughts of humanity are leaving religion behind, to join with sailing ships and other 'musts' of their day.
I'm not sure of the aquarian age business, but change there is - which is the natural order of things.

COUCH WARRIOR

I think that religion is certainly on the slide. Though I don't think war is. Religion may be the excuse for war, but desire for resources is always the cause.

herbiemcc

One thing that concerns/annoys me is that if you look back through the ages there have been lots of atheist writers, polititians etc who have denounced religion but somehow we're now in a super religious world.

For example if you compare the founding fathers with today's American politics / society it's scary how one dimensional it is now. Maybe it's because as they say, to make it in politics you have to have a simple clear message and most importantly, never change your mind. That's why people like Bush get popular - you rarely get introspective, thoughtful people at that level. A religious back up story never hurts either. I love the way people equate the two questions - "Do you love god? / Do you love America?"

I can't remember who said it but I heard someone (youtube) discussing how Martin Luther King campaigned for equal rights and he was a religious person. There were lots of other black people around him, just as involved in their struggle who were not religious but didn't get remembered in the mainstream.

Therefore they concluded that black leaders today seem to feel the only heritage they have is a purely religious one. This seems to ring true in that I can't think of a single black American leader who is clearly atheist. They probably have a social double whammy of appearing to both deny god and their own heritage which is competely unfair.

I'm not trying to make it a race issue but I think it demonstrates how the religious issue becomes clouded and inextricably linked with so many other issues that to step out of it alone becomes nearly impossible. I can't believe it when people really say something like "If you don't believe in god and laws are based on god's laws - do you not believe in the law?"

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

krudler

Its beyond ridiculous that being a god fearing christian seems to be one of the prerequisites for becoming US president these days, Bush voters mostly voted for him because of his Christian values (nothing like starting a war to show how christian you are i guess) The evangelical voters in the States can make or break an election based purely on your beliefs, thats not democracy imo. The US wasnt created as a christian nation, yet has evolved into one with a massive sense of entitlement towards christianity , as if being a christian and an American go hand in hand, and anything else is not to be trusted. There's a great interview with Matt Damon talking about Sarah Palin before the last election floating around on youtube, where he says he's like to know if she really believes that dinosaurs were around 6000 years ago, because these things will matter when she has her hands on the nuclear launch codes if she became president, and thats a terrifying prospect.

The Mad Hatter

krudler wrote: »

Its beyond ridiculous that being a god fearing christian seems to be one of the prerequisites for becoming US president these days, Bush voters mostly voted for him because of his Christian values (nothing like starting a war to show how christian you are i guess) The evangelical voters in the States can make or break an election based purely on your beliefs, thats not democracy imo. The US wasnt created as a christian nation, yet has evolved into one with a massive sense of entitlement towards christianity , as if being a christian and an American go hand in hand, and anything else is not to be trusted. There's a great interview with Matt Damon talking about Sarah Palin before the last election floating around on youtube, where he says he's like to know if she really believes that dinosaurs were around 6000 years ago, because these things will matter when she has her hands on the nuclear launch codes if she became president, and thats a terrifying prospect.

Reminds me of Bill Maher and the Evangelical Senator:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTSCRoYyM-Y

Full interview.

I love the way his face just falls when he realises Maher isn't laughing.

krudler

I was only watching Religulous the other night, I dont agree with everything Maher says but its hard to argue his logic when it comes to religion, especially since he's advocating the "i dont know" part of it, thats its good to question, bad to blindly follow contradictions which i completely agree with

The Mad Hatter

krudler wrote: »

I was only watching Religulous the other night, I dont agree with everything Maher says but its hard to argue his logic when it comes to religion, especially since he's advocating the "i dont know" part of it, thats its good to question, bad to blindly follow contradictions which i completely agree with

The problem with Maher is he's a shallow thinker. Sadly, though, it seems the majority of US politicians and newscasters are more so.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

fitz0

I wonder does the media portrayal of religion have much to do with the decline or is it because of the decline. I'm referring to TV shows such as Supernatural and movies like Legion and such. They are clearly fantasy and throw the Christian god, and indeed the Muslim and Jawish god(s), into the fantasy mix. Perhaps the more people see this the more likely they are to equate fantasy and religion especially if they have not concreted their beliefs.

I could be wrong but it seems like its becoming more acceptable to openly relate gods with fantasy.

Zombrex

The Mad Hatter wrote: »

I love the way his face just falls when he realises Maher isn't laughing.

Ummm ... smacks a bit of "The Hills" style selective editing. Unless they had a ton of cameras set up

eoin5

I think some of the issue in america is that atheists are an unknown, you cant put them all in a box and point at them like people do with the mexican immigrants or whoever. They share very few traits other than a non-belief in a god, not culture, not looks or skin colour or obvious sounding names. The gay community has a public side for something as personal as sexuality, you dont see atheist bars or atheist pride marches.

How can you trust someone whos in a group thats not apparent in day to day living and doesnt share any of your god fearing values? There could be one beside me! Ahhhh the horror...

The Mad Hatter

Wicknight wrote: »

Ummm ... smacks a bit of "The Hills" style selective editing. Unless they had a ton of cameras set up

Presumably they have just two cameras. I agree that that could still have been the answer to a different question, but whatever the question was, it's a bad answer.

lynski

this is an interesting question and i am not in agreement with the consensus so far. I think that there is more openness in terms of people admitting to a non-believe in deities or religions however the VAST majority of the planets inhabitants are theists and there is a growing pressure on politicians to show their religious colours or to show respect for the 'beliefs' of others in the multicultural society we now live in. the countries with fast population growth are also the ones with strong religious beliefs. i am not sure that there are more rationalists around, but perhaps we are now vocal about it. however the fundamentalists are also more and more vocal then they would hav ebeen in the past.
I am constantly amazed at the presence of religious beliefs in what i consider to be normal intelligent people and their assumptions that i share some of those beliefs or will show respect for their beliefs.
as an atheist I find it hard to imagine how anyone could believe in any of the hokum that is peddled by the religions of this world and i forget sometimes that there are those who have sincere beliefs in this crap. while i respect their right to believe in whatever they want, i dont respect the beliefs.

herbiemcc

eoin5 > I think that's a really good point and I couldn't agree more.

I think a lot of people are just deeply uncomfortable with people not being in a box they can tick. Atheists are not a religion. We have no commandments. People are fearful of different things and also like to be grouped (probably part of why as a human race we're so open to crazy religions).

If there ever is to be a change there probably has to be more support given to AtheismIreland etc.

My problem is that I don't really want to be a campaigner or join a 'non-religious society'. I don't get the point - I don't want to join a non-cricketers society either (then again if cricketers controlled the schools, wanted to claim our children as their disciples and took tax money then maybe I would be anti-cricket!!).

I don't want to spend my time 'rebelling' and fighting against religion. Guys like Hitchens love the debate but I'd rather there was a neutral assumption of faith and then you could correct people that you're a christian or whatever.

Long way to go before that happens though.

johnmacward

fitz0 wrote: »

I wonder does the media portrayal of religion have much to do with the decline or is it because of the decline. I'm referring to TV shows such as Supernatural and movies like Legion and such. They are clearly fantasy and throw the Christian god, and indeed the Muslim and Jawish god(s), into the fantasy mix. Perhaps the more people see this the more likely they are to equate fantasy and religion especially if they have not concreted their beliefs.

I could be wrong but it seems like its becoming more acceptable to openly relate gods with fantasy.

I find the opposite, I happened to watch Supernatural one night and I hated the way it tried to normalise the idea's it put forward. The problem to me was, it wasn't a comedy and at least Charmed was some kind of bad comedy. It had a certain seriousness to it, like a plain assumption that spirit's exist and there are certain humans with abilities to stop them doing evil. And while the particular episode had no real reference to God, you could tell that it was implied as the families from the past we're highly religious.

My fear is the opposite to your hope in that I think these programs validate to some extent and in a "sexy" way the ideas that spirit's exist and they don't rest. Other programs on supernatural phenomona like Buffy, Charmed, Angel had a certain comedy to them implied immediately, and rest assured you knew it was entertainment purely. I mean we know there's no such thing as vampires and underground goblin's hence it was definitely fantasy, but Supernatural, to me, was etching at something with real people and real situations. My sister afterwards started talking about Psychic's and poltergeist's and "famous" situations of a picture being burned and coming back to life in another part of the attic. Then I knew it was different from Buffy...

That was my take on it anyway, I couldn't help but feel that.

Algernon

robindch

Goduznt Xzst

herbiemcc wrote: »

Is it just me or is something really changing?

"we're still dry" said the men as they sank deeper in their diving bell.

Zamboni

Atheism may becoming more acceptable in Western countries but it is no way guaranteed to be the 'victor' in the long run.
The human population is exploding and the majority of this increase is taking place in extremely religious countries.
Whilst I would love to see a very secular world in the future, I would say the odds are fairly stacked against it on the numbers game alone.

herbiemcc

Is there anything that can be done?

Not to sound melodramatic but it's a pretty bleak picture if you think of the way religious extremism is flourishing and certainly showing no signs of mellowing. Re: nuclear weapons etc it actually is quite possible.

It all goes back to the rationality of it. You may not agree that anything in the universe is rational at all (probably true in some sense) but to have your core claims about the world and the universe to be, by definition, completely beyond discussion is just crazy. It just is. It's not even an adult thing to do.

To then take this 'faith' to the point of violence towards another single person is shocking never mind mass murders/genocide. I agree with a few of the current authors on the subject in that I think it's true how distanced moderates feel from these things but they are actually completely up to their necks in it.

The balkan war where terms like 'the Croatians' and 'Serbs' etc were used instead of really just saying eg 'Christian forces today bombed a Muslim target' etc to really call it like it was. Like countless other events it was a horrible conflict in the name of religion but it was played down as an ethnic/tribal thing to make it feel distant and not connected with the church sunday fete.

Moderates really do give concealment and fuel to these people - their vague moderate justifications are infuriating. I was talking to my sisters last week. Ordinarily they're smart, educated people. When we started talking about religion they completely, visibly changed. Their arguments became vague and incoherent and entirely based on waffle they seemed to feel they should promote.

They then said - as is often the case bizarrely - that I had some sort of 'problem'' in that to talk about religion is a bit weird i.e. I must really be deficient and desperately looking for some sort of truth.

Astounding.

Dades

herbiemcc wrote: »

Is there anything that can be done?

Make the world a better place so people don't need religion? Lofty aim, I know. :pac:

Goduznt Xzst

herbiemcc wrote: »

Is there anything that can be done?

Cure death