Will new "Puppy Farm" law ban hunting by the back door?

fairplay

I ask this question with fingers crossed...because I oppose the hunting of animals with hounds...that is, chasing them to death or injury for sport, as distinct from dispatching them instantly if they absolutely must be killed.

The hunting fraternity is up in arms about the the puppy farm law currently being drafted ( I understand it's very close to being brought before the Dail)...they feel gravely threatened by the fact that, in addition to commercial puppy farms, hunt kennels are to be included in the new legislation.

That would mean that hunt kennels would be subject to occasional inspections by animal welfare inspectors and would be more accountable for their day to day running than they have been up to now.

The hunters insist that their kennels are all run impeccably and are outraged at the idea of being open to public scrutiny...

I have to ask. WHY?. If the kennels have nothing to hide and are well run as the hunts say they are...what's the problem with occasional inspections by an independent outside agency...as distinct from the self-regulatory system they've had up to now?

Claims by hunters that having kennels open to public scrutiny would "hang" hunting fascinate me.

Could this fear of an independent inspectorate have anything to do with certain practises..such as savagely killing any hound that doesn't show promise or a propensity to chase foxes?

Whatever the motive for lashing out at Minister Gormley's humane intervention in the operation of hunt kennels (and my tongue is NOT in my cheek when I say this), I am loving this new law even more every time I see or hear hunters get their tally-ho knickers into a twist over it.

If the hunters hate the proposed Puppy Farm law so much, then there just has to be something in it for the fox!

Unless the government itself falls in the meantime, I suspect that hunters are in for a succession of unpleasant shocks and setbacks. And that, I believe, is good news indeed for our persecuted foxes, hares, and stags.

djpbarry

Moved from Green Issues. Not sure if this is the best place for it.

Sparks

Hunting is probably not the best choice of location for a thread starting off with this bias, but what the heck, we'll give it a run so long as everyone stays civil with one another and we drop phrases like "tally-ho knickers" which belong more in Copper-Faced Jacks than Hunting, m'kay?

bunny shooter

Just to show we are not biased





we'll adopt a humourous approach :P

Cass

One word for you bunny,................... brilliance, ................pure brilliance. (okay thats 2 words but damn funny)

natdog

I propose that nobody replies to this bias thread because "fairplay" is waiting for abuse to justify his existence

bunny shooter

natdog wrote: »

I propose that nobody replies to this bias thread because "fairplay" is waiting for abuse to justify his existence

But we should reply, with understanding and sympathy. People such as this will not listen to reasoned arguments and explantions, therefore, it is best to humour them

djpbarry

Sparks wrote: »

Hunting is probably not the best choice of location for a thread starting off with this bias...

I thought that myself - it was a toss-up between closing it and moving it. But I honestly couldn't think of a more appropriate forum.

bunny shooter

djpbarry wrote: »

I thought that myself - it was a toss-up between closing it and moving it. But I honestly couldn't think of a more appropriate forum.

And we really appreciate you thinking of us We needed some light entertainment :P

kakashka

Any hunt kennels i've seen are run very well by ppl who adored their animals,i dont think hunt kennels are generally into it for the money,more about healthy well bred animals IMO
Edit-actually Fairplay how about proper inspections for nursing homes,creche,council water treatment plants etc etc first??

dicky82

fairplay the clue is in the name. . .

puppy farms are run by people who see this as a way of making a quick buck with no reguard for the welfare of the dog.. they have bitches from populor and expencive breeds, kept in minimal and more ofton than not awful conditions. the litters are usually weak unvaccinated and riddled with health problesms. the bitches are mated on every heat with no chance to recover from litter to litter. all you have to do is look on sites like buy and sell or gumtree and see how many breeds of dog are on offer from the same person. these people are one of the skurdges on our society and have no business owning any animal.

hunting kennels and kennels in general are all about breed up keep and animal welfare. you'll find that the people running the kennels and looking after the dogs are not the same 'tally ho' people on horse back you refare to. of course they are out raged. they are being tarred with the same brush as the scum who run puppy farms. they probably pride themselves on their dogs and to have some minister whos idea of country life is a walk in the woods on a sunday, dictate standards to them.of corse it is going to rhile opinion.

homerhop

It’s a pity the folks living in built up areas are not as good at looking after their dogs as someone who has a pack, or hunting dogs in general. They are quiet happy to buy their cute little puppies and don’t care the conditions that they were bred in. You also got the kennel club who register their little puppies and have no problems what so ever in breeding a sire with a pup from a litter that he also sired... inbreeding is destroying the genetics that made the dogs so appealing. They go on about hunters being this and that but I know for sure I wouldn’t allow a dog of mine to breed with its daughter.
Then you get the fools that will get a pup from a working dog and keep it locked in a small back yard not realising that there are generations of working in its genes. They will walk their dogs around the block or let it run around a green area for 10 or 15 minutes. These dogs need long walks not something you would do in 15 or 20 minutes.
I won’t even start in on strays.

So as far as I am concerned come back when the the antis start a crusade to prevent all the above mentioned, clean up the mess that is in their own areas and then when they meet the standards that the hunting community have for their working dogs we might entertain them.

kakashka

Are Hunting sports ppl really "up in arm" over it anyway??

doctor evil

Originally Gormley promised to keep hunting kennels out of the bill, but of course he didn't stick it.

I see no problem this thread being in here, it may not be welcomed in the Animal Welfare forum as they tend to keep hunting stuff out. The Equestrian forum wouldn't be a bad one for this thread to go into as a few hunting bods frequent it.

homerhop

Perhaps not many have hunted with hounds but I have followed a pack on foot when I was younger and later on as a club we got the local hound master to run the woods with his pack to flush foxes while the club members took up various positions at fox runs. After all the title of this section is Hunting

IRLConor

OK, anything even vaguely off-topic in this thread will be deleted. I've had to do a big cull of posts, please make that the last.

deeksofdoom

fairplay wrote: »

I ask this question with fingers crossed...because I oppose the hunting of animals with hounds...that is, chasing them to death or injury for sport, as distinct from dispatching them instantly if they absolutely must be killed.

I don't see anything wrong with it, foxes have to be controlled. its probably not the most humane way but its necessary and it does keep people in employment in this country.

fairplay wrote: »

The hunting fraternity is up in arms about the the puppy farm law currently being drafted ( I understand it's very close to being brought before the Dail)...they feel gravely threatened by the fact that, in addition to commercial puppy farms, hunt kennels are to be included in the new legislation.

Where did you get this piece of information, examples links please.

fairplay wrote: »

That would mean that hunt kennels would be subject to occasional inspections by animal welfare inspectors and would be more accountable for their day to day running than they have been up to now.

That would be no harm, bt there's a lot more serious matters that the government could be looking spending my hard earned tax on then looking at dog kennels.

fairplay wrote: »

The hunters insist that their kennels are all run impeccably and are outraged at the idea of being open to public scrutiny...

Yawn!!!

fairplay wrote: »

I have to ask. WHY?. If the kennels have nothing to hide and are well run as the hunts say they are...what's the problem with occasional inspections by an independent outside agency...as distinct from the self-regulatory system they've had up to now?

The problem is this country is on its knees and the greens want to invest money in employing people to look at dog kennels, its like the whole counting frogs thing again.

fairplay wrote: »

Claims by hunters that having kennels open to public scrutiny would "hang" hunting fascinate me.

Again could you substantiate this claim by providing evidence of this.

fairplay wrote: »

Could this fear of an independent inspectorate have anything to do with certain practises..such as savagely killing any hound that doesn't show promise or a propensity to chase foxes?

Dogs are put down because they're no good, not, up to the task and not suitable for breeding. Its all about animal husbandry and farmers have been doing it for thousands of years. There is no reason for a bad dog to take the place of a good one. You might porvided evidence of dogs being savegly killed while your at it.

fairplay wrote: »

Whatever the motive for lashing out at Minister Gormley's humane intervention in the operation of hunt kennels (and my tongue is NOT in my cheek when I say this), I am loving this new law even more every time I see or hear hunters get their tally-ho knickers into a twist over it.

Gormley won't be a minister in the next government so don't be getting your own knickers in a knot.

fairplay wrote: »

If the hunters hate the proposed Puppy Farm law so much, then there just has to be something in it for the fox!

Hunters will just clean up they're kennels and the hunting will continue as ever, the Greens will never end hunting, NEVER! .......MUAHHHH,HA,HA,HA,HA,HA,HA,HA,HA,HA,HA,HA,HA,HA,HA,HA,HA,HA,HA,HA,HA!

fairplay wrote: »

Unless the government itself falls in the meantime, I suspect that hunters are in for a succession of unpleasant shocks and setbacks. And that, I believe, is good news indeed for our persecuted foxes, hares, and stags.

Not really the hounds will be living in better conditions and will probably be healthier as a result. they'll be able to hunt for longer and as a result the hunting will be even better than before.

the more I think about it the more I like this new law

sikastag

Well put deeks! :D:D

I was going to write a nice friendly worded paragraph or two but realised youve covered it quite well and in its entirety!!!

Mr. Gormless may just be very well biting the hand that feeds him!

thelurcher

Good reply Deeks but I would take issue with one or two things -

I don't see anything wrong with it, foxes have to be controlled. its probably not the most humane way but its necessary and it does keep people in employment in this country.

With fox hunting it's very cut and dry - you either kill a fox or you don't - there's no wounding as can unfortunately happen with other methods of control - the fox is shot at point blank range - I don't see it as being any less humane than what goes on every day in abattoirs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fairplay
The hunting fraternity is up in arms about the the puppy farm law currently being drafted ( I understand it's very close to being brought before the Dail)...they feel gravely threatened by the fact that, in addition to commercial puppy farms, hunt kennels are to be included in the new legislation.
Where did you get this piece of information, examples links please.

It's no secret that we're up in arms about the new legislation - obviously the mass rallies I attended didn't have the desired affect if even the shooting community hasn't heard about them.
Google is your friend for why we object to it - but here are the IMFA links -
IMFA1
IMFA2
You should see some of the hunt kennels around the country - absolutely stunning setups. Keep an ear to the ground for any open days or puppy shows etc. at you're local hunt - I'll guarantee that even the anti's would have to be impressed.

BryanL

Anyone who holds a kennel licence is open to inspection, by the dog warden every 6 months.
To think hunt kennels are not inspected is fantasy.
One kennel i hunt with had an inspector from the HSA come down from Dublin to ensure they had a sign up saying "Caution Dogs May Bite" and "Horses Can Be Dangerous". I kid you not, yes tax money is wasted on things like that!!! (I'll post a picture later)

The proposed law is going to make no difference what so ever to Hunts , except cost them money for nothing. Hunts are hardly puppy farms, no pups are sold so money. It's just a case of pay some money and work away.
Bryan

dCorbus

Hmmmmm.....Interesting, no word back from mr. or ms. fairplay. (That's a two day hiatus)....probably far too busy to correspond with those whose ideas may not entirely correspond with their own.:rolleyes:
Not a hunter myself, but it's interesting to see the lack of debate / response from those purporting to represent the oppressed cuddly animals.

I was just wondering to myself why I've never heard of anyone defending the rights of seagulls, feral urban pigeons, and rats.....or perhaps they're not cute / majestic / anthropomorphic / etc enough to warrent a spirited and informed defence too?

IRLConor

dCorbus wrote: »

Hmmmmm.....Interesting, no word back from mr. or ms. fairplay. (That's a two day hiatus)....probably far too busy to correspond with those whose ideas may not entirely correspond with their own.:rolleyes:

It's actually because fairplay is banned from Shooting. There's no ban history attached to their account but it looks like they were banned for trolling some time in 2007 which was before ban reasons & histories were recorded.

Due to the lack of ban history, the mod who moved their thread here had no way of knowing that they couldn't respond.

dCorbus

Thanks for the clarification, irlconor

Then I apologise for casting aspersions on fairplay's bona fides!

But makes you think though about those poor cuddly rats......:rolleyes:

doyle61

lads, just a question on the subject; is this proposed change in the law aimed at all kennels or just breeders?
if it is all kennels it affects most of the country as most of the country have dogs
have any of ye ever actually seen a puppy farm?? im a hunter but i also breed dogs and theres nothing ild like to see more than the end of mass produced puppy farming. every time i sell a pup i restrict the papers to try and stop them being sold into the industry.
the way i see it is, if this law is aimed ONLY at puppy farming and not at everyone else then it might be the only thing that gormless has ever done that i agree with.

deeksofdoom

IRLConor wrote: »

It's actually because fairplay is banned from Shooting. There's no ban history attached to their account but it looks like they were banned for trolling some time in 2007 which was before ban reasons & histories were recorded.

Due to the lack of ban history, the mod who moved their thread here had no way of knowing that they couldn't respond.

Well I think that this should be put back into the green issues section for further debate. Seeing as most of the green crowd are probably banned from the hunting and shooting forums for posting anti-hunting stuff at one time or another, how are we supposed to know what they're going to come out with next?

jwshooter

deeksofdoom wrote: »

Well I think that this should be put back into the green issues section for further debate. Seeing as most of the green crowd are probably banned from the hunting and shooting forums for posting anti-hunting stuff at one time or another, how are we supposed to know what they're going to come out with next?

that kinda brings us back to the point we almost got banned over.

IRLConor

deeksofdoom wrote: »

Well I think that this should be put back into the green issues section for further debate. Seeing as most of the green crowd are probably banned from the hunting and shooting forums for posting anti-hunting stuff at one time or another, how are we supposed to know what they're going to come out with next?

Of the 852 users who posted in Green Issues, Animals & Pet Issues or Animal Welfare in the last 30 days only 3 are banned here. Of those 3, 1 is banned from Green Issues, Animals & Pet Issues and Animal Welfare as well.

Most people on boards.ie who would be likely to object to hunting have full access here and, more importantly, are welcome to do so if they do so in a reasonable and respectable manner.

deeksofdoom

jwshooter wrote: »

that kinda brings us back to the point we almost got banned over.

I know JW it's silly but what can you do.............. the poor ould greens can't even reply to the thread.:rolleyes:...it seemed like a good idea at the time though:p

deeksofdoom

IRLConor wrote: »

Of the 852 users who posted in Green Issues, Animals & Pet Issues or Animal Welfare in the last 30 days only 3 are banned here. Of those 3, 1 is banned from Green Issues, Animals & Pet Issues and Animal Welfare as well.

Most people on boards.ie who would be likely to object to hunting have full access here and, more importantly, are welcome to do so if they do so in a reasonable and respectable manner.

What about 'fairplay'............ no pun intended:o, that pour ould devil can't even reply to his own thread, how stupid is that!:D:D:D

IRLConor

deeksofdoom wrote: »

What about 'fairplay'............ no pun intended:o, that pour ould devil can't even reply to his own thread, how stupid is that!:D:D:D

Well, it was started in Green Issues. Unfortunately for fairplay, they're banned there now as well so even if I moved it back it wouldn't be any use to them.

deeksofdoom

IRLConor wrote: »

Well, it was started in Green Issues. Unfortunately for fairplay, they're banned there now as well so even if I moved it back it wouldn't be any use to them.

Well that's just lovely, here's JW and myself defending hunting, meanwhile sparks is handing out infractions like they were sweets and the mods go and ban fairplay.... disgraceful:o

IRLConor

Well, I guess there isn't much point in keeping this thread open any longer. If anyone has anything on-topic to add, PM me and I'll consider reopening it.