Is 12 weeks long enough for a marathon training program?

--amadeus--

OK, honest opinions needed here.

I trained through last summer doing a modified P&D 55 mpw schedule. I averaged 45+ mpw with two peak weeks of 60+ . I ram Amsterdam in 3:00:35 and paced Dublin in 3:59:xx 8 days later.

Since then my training has been very hit and miss. I notched up a respectable 18 miler before Xmas and I did mid 40s last week without an LSR. But work has been crazy and I just haven't been able to get any consistency behind my running - I haven't done a tap since Sunday, for example.

I had been hoping to run Vienna on the 18th April, which (if my sums are right) is 12 weeks from next week.

Typically my training plans are 18 weeks but I know there is a 12 week P&D plan. I am planning a step up in mileage anyway and with 5 years running and 10 marathons behind me will that be enough time to get into PB/2:55 shape or should I look at a later race?

thirstywork

12 weeks for me wouldn't be enough time to prepare.all depends what your goals are i suppose but i would be giving myself minimum 18weeks.

LavaLamp

I used a 12 week programme for my first marathon, went from nearly dropping dead on an 8.2 mile race in the November to running a 4:30 marathon (with knee injury at mile 16) in April the next year. If I can manage that then with your experience you should be able to pull a PB out of the hat on a 12 week programme, it's all about dedication really.

I am once again relying on a 12 week programme to get me round London marathon in April, looking for 3:30. Was planning to be running from November to get a good start but managed to injure myself badly enough to stop me running for 4 weeks (good start lol).

Have a look at the runners world website, they have some excellent training schedules that will keep you right

If you really want it, you will get it.....we all have it in us, it's just having the willpower to dig deep enough to find it

shels4ever

--amadeus-- wrote: »

OK, honest opinions needed here.

I trained through last summer doing a modified P&D 55 mpw schedule. I averaged 45+ mpw with two peak weeks of 60+ . I ram Amsterdam in 3:00:35 and paced Dublin in 3:59:xx 8 days later.

Since then my training has been very hit and miss. I notched up a respectable 18 miler before Xmas and I did mid 40s last week without an LSR. But work has been crazy and I just haven't been able to get any consistency behind my running - I haven't done a tap since Sunday, for example.

I had been hoping to run Vienna on the 18th April, which (if my sums are right) is 12 weeks from next week.

Typically my training plans are 18 weeks but I know there is a 12 week P&D plan. I am planning a step up in mileage anyway and with 5 years running and 10 marathons behind me will that be enough time to get into PB/2:55 shape or should I look at a later race?

How has yoru form been since dublin ? I would have maybe planned a race around this time to see where you stand compared to last year.

Less time training to go faster doesnt seem to add up, unless you have a better base level starting now.

village runner

Your base is top notch but its only long runs you need. I think the last few weeks will give you a break. 12 weeks is plenty in my opinion. With quality workouts a better start, a couple of fast finish long ones(great mentally) i cant see any reason why you cant knock 5 min of your time.

Or are you happy to go sub 3 on the nxt run ? Big decision ???

--amadeus--

Thanks for the replies!

shels4ever wrote: »

How has yoru form been since dublin ? I would have maybe planned a race around this time to see where you stand compared to last year.

Less time training to go faster doesnt seem to add up, unless you have a better base level starting now.

I pretty much never race, I tend to only race if I am really confident of a PB. I don't think the form is too bad - I've been running 10 milers in the 7:30 area pretty comfortably so not a million miles away from fit. Less time to go faster I agree sounds wrong but less time with harder work to go faster...?

village runner wrote: »

Your base is top notch but its only long runs you need. I think the last few weeks will give you a break. 12 weeks is plenty in my opinion. With quality workouts a better start, a couple of fast finish long ones(great mentally) i cant see any reason why you cant knock 5 min of your time.

Or are you happy to go sub 3 on the nxt run ? Big decision ???

Like above I won't race if I won't PB (barring disaster). If I go to the line in Vienna it will be expecting 2:55ish. I'm not sure I would say my base is top notch, but it's there. But I was thinking on the same lines as you - quality making up for a slow start.

Lots to chew over.

misty floyd

Now I'm pulling this figure out of my ass but but surely after about 4 weeks from now, hard training, you'll be back to where you where? Not that I know much but you are recovered well from the marathon(s), you've still been running (and mileage isn't that low). 4 weeks you could tune up....carry on with hard work for 5 or 6 weeks and surely you can nail that 5 minutes? Granted 5 mins at your level is a big ask but you could definitely do it.

aero2k

Hi amadeus,

My first marathon, DCM '83, was done following a 12 week programme that was published in the Evening Press. It was six days per week, and built up to a 19 mile longest run, if I remember rightly. I was slim and reasonably fit when I started, but I hadn't done much running for a couple of months before it. On the 4th week of the programme I did a 10k in 40 min, and I did DCM in 3:18, after dying from 20 miles on.
With your experience, and your current state of fitness, I'd say it's definitely possible. You might want to consider a shortened taper, and one of Tergat's posts had some recommended workouts for the last few weeks that might be beneficial. I reckon consistency from here on in is the key.

Looking forward to the race report!

shels4ever

--amadeus-- wrote: »

I pretty much never race, I tend to only race if I am really confident of a PB. I don't think the form is too bad - I've been running 10 milers in the 7:30 area pretty comfortably so not a million miles away from fit. Less time to go faster I agree sounds wrong but less time with harder work to go faster...?

Yes I'd say you could do it with 12 week of harder training,its defo possible and you have show you can go sub 3. All depends on how your feeling now , I'm planning on a 12 week program myself but I do have 4 week pre marathon training. Its only because I dont think i can take 16 weeks training

rigal

Yes...assuming you can fit the runs in around work.

You have the base fitness there as previous posters have said. Last week you managed to run 40+ miles without an lsr so the body seems to be ready for more.

Good luck.

Krusty_Clown

I'm on my second 12 week P&D program (the only difference being the version of the book that I got it from). Second edition has more PMP runs (every second week). The first one (older edition) served me very well in Berlin, so I'm hoping that this one will do likewise.

The good thing about the 12 week program is that you don't lose interest or motivation, and instead of doing an 18 week program, you can fit in a 10k program and then do the 12 week program.

The not so good thing: the schedule will typically only fit in two 20 mile runs (55 mpw program). I'm trying to up the mileage a little, and peak at a little more than 55miles.

toomuchdetail

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

I'm on my second 12 week P&D program :

Might be a bit thick but whats the P&D program :

if its Pizza +Donuts I actually tried this for 15 yrs and its doesn't work

Enduro

I would say yes. Dedication and focus to keeping high quality training will take you a long way. And don't neglect speedwork with the aims you have. You might find that the rest has done you a power of good. I quite often emerge from a month or two's lay-off in flying form after a few weeks of training.

VanBosch

I have only ran one marathon so I wouldnt be qualified to offer advice, but I will anyway!. As you have said yourself your base fitness is still there and you did a good load of miles last week so the basic fitness is good.

If you only race to PB then you are going to be shelling out entry fee, accom costs and flight costs for vienna (assuming you aint booked already), so if the training didnt go well you prob woulnt race as you wouldnt be bothered getting a 3:05 for example. There is probably enough time in 12 weeks for someone of your fitness but the only issue I would see would be the work situation. If the busy period in work which has stopped you running this week was to tick over even another couple of weeks you could be caught short. Only you know how likely this is, if its not going to then I'd go for it, if it not maybe look at one a few weeks later...Belfast/Limerick

Just my two cents - good luck.

--amadeus--

P&D are Pete Pfitzinger and Scott Douglas, who co-wrote Advanced Marathoning, which is pretty much the bible for serious marathon runners. I've read a few books on running / training but P&D is the only one I keep by my bed

KC - it's encouraging to hear that you use teh 12 week programs since we've got pretty much identical times & goals.

And you guys are right, with the rest I have had and the fitness I have maintained then a couple of weeks good training should see me make good progress. I have an established fitness base - I could run 26 miles in the morning if I had to. What's lacking is speed endurance, the ability to maintain race pace after 20 miles. And 6:40/miles is a decent enough pace. The only way I can build that is - as VR & Enduro say - through speed work; PMP runs, tough intervals and fast finish lsrs. And trying to achieve all of that in a constricted timeframe is teh worry, especially if teh standard 12 week plan only has a couple of 20 milers in it.

In terms of teh work demands - I'm self employed, which is a blessing and a curse. Normally I can take Friday morning off for an LSR and steal an hour or so in teh afternoon for my run by just making up teh time over the weekend or in teh evening. This last week or so though I have been doing full days and then working till midnight most nights so training just isn't an option. I've managed to close out a couple of projects but more are on thier way so I'm not sure how that will develop.

Thanks again for teh advice and thoughts - it's really helped. I'm going to try and get out today and do a run with a PMP segment, maybe a 10 with 4 @ PMP, that should give me an idea of where I am. Then I can pick up teh 12 week plan from Monday and give it a couple of weeks. If all goes well then I'll cough up the money for race entry, hotels, etc.

TheRoadRunner

--amadeus-- wrote: »

P&D are Pete Pfitzinger and Scott Douglas, who co-wrote Advanced Marathoning, which is pretty much the bible for serious marathon runners.

In your opinion obviously !

--amadeus--

TheRoadRunner wrote: »

In your opinion obviously !

Well obviously - thats all anyone ever gives on here is personal opinions. But it's the book that I hear recommended to people looking to improve more than any other and thier plans seem to be followed by more sub 3 and sub 3 hopefulls than any other plan.

KentuckyPete

Go for it Amadeus - three months should be fine given the base you've got. The rest from rigorous training since Dublin will stand to you. Be careful not to ramp up to top mileage too quickly in an attempt to catch up with what you think are missed weeks. Draw up your training plan to include the appropriate ramp up over the first weeks and a proper taper at the back end.

Also, once you start training, don't worry any more about your "short" buildup. Get to the positive side of the training buzz. Set your goals and go for it. You won't know for certain until about the 18 mile mark in Vienna whether you have a chance of 2:55 and you won't know for certain that you'll make 2:55 until you've about half a mile to go. So there's no point in obsessing now

Your form in Amsterdam and your experience of the rigours of the training program and race day will stand to you. Good luck to ya.

Krusty_Clown

While I was a little nervous about doung only two 20 mile runs (having done 5 for my previous marathon), on the day, I found it didn't impact me at all, despite running 10-15 seconds faster than the PMP I had trained for. My opinion: Getting a lot of long runs under your belt in the early days of marathon running (your first few races) is important to allow your physiology to adapt. But based on my limited experience, as long as you maintain a good base, there isn't much need to do a large amount of super-long LSRs, if your PMP isn't hugely different to your most recent performance.

If your PMP is agressive (e.g 15 mins faster than most recent performance at the upper end of your natural ability curve) or you haven't kept up a decent base, then you need to do long runs to re-adapt your physiology, or adapt it further to achieve the new target. Please note: This is complete makey-uppey stuff, and is backup up by no other data than my own recent experience. I don't want to start off another LSR debate, just trying to point out that over a 12 week program, 2 x 20 mile LSRs may be enough if you haven't dropped the ball and the program is a mixture of speed and endurance.

I'll report back some time in early March.

Peckham

Whether a 12 week plan is sufficient, or not, all depends on what has come before the 12 week period and what the objectives of the race are - i.e. a 12 week plan is insufficient if you've taken it very easy in the 4 weeks prior to it, and are hoping to go from 3:00 to 2:55.

As another P&D advocate, I think it's important to put the 18 v 12 week debate in the context of their four "mesocycles" - endurance, lactate threshold and endurance, race preparation, and tapering. If you're confident enough in your endurance, then I guess you can kind of gloss over the endurance part (as that's going to happen anyway through your normal training), and just skip to the second one (where I suppose many the improvements in speed come from). That, I suppose, is the compromise you're making by going for a 12 week plan.

I'm now at the end of week 4 of an 18 week P&D-inspired plan. Based on the four weeks training I've done so far, do I feel more confident about holding 6:40ish pace for 26.2 miles (or rather 26.5 miles, which many of us have learned is the way to calculate PMP!) than I did 6 weeks ago? No I don't. But am confident that I'll be in a better position to attack the "lactate threshold and endurance" mesocycle, and spend longer doing it, than I would have if I had have gone for a 12 week plan.

Jaysus, reading over that again I sound like such a marathon geek....honestly, I'm not...am I?!...maybe my wife is right after all!