Divided opinions on the board - reflection of golf in Ireland today?

dinnyman

I've been following this board now for roughly a year or so and admittedly I contribute very little in content. But there's been a number of debates / arguments on here over the past couple of months which I find very interesting.

Whether people are aware or not - it looks like theres two seperate "factions" here.

1. Long (relatively) term members of clubs who have paid entrance fees in the past and concerned what effect the current climate will have on their club's well being.

2. Previously casual players who as a result of the current climate, may now be in a position to join a good club. These are also concerned about their potential new clubs future.

This puts clubs in a difficult situation because (1.) wants their club to retain the "value" that they see in their own outlay over the years and (2.) wants even better "value up front" now in the short term.

I'm back playing now after a break of 10 years and I will be joining a club in the coming weeks. In all likelihood it will be in a club that has either greatly reduced it's joing fee or now has no entrance fee whatsoever.

So (after all that) my question is - What do you think existing member's feelings; ill or otherwise are about an influx of new members into their club? at a much lower cost that what they themselves paid?

What group (1. or 2.) are you yourself in and what do you think?

thanks

f22

Good post.

I'm a member of a members owned club, cost me 11k four years ago, always looked at it as a lifetime investment.

You can now join for half that in a group scheme, times change so move with them in my eyes. Two things would bother me and both are intertwined. If the entrance fee was removed and large numbers arrived my abilty to play when I prefer would seriously annoy me.

We have a diverse membership in age, class, and golfing ability and that's the way it should be. A massive influx of new members paying no entrance fee could tip the balance and remove one of the best things about the club, the fact that times are pretty much only retricted on major days, and that's simply because everyone wants to play.

That's my 2 cents.

jimjo

I can only imagine existing members would feel somewhat aggrieved at the thought of their joining fee’s going down in price, totally naturally. If you paid €9,000 two years ago to find out at a recent AGM the joining fee is now down to €1,000, I too would feel pretty sick. However that’s the times we are in at the moment and there’s no chancing that. Equally that member maybe should think, you know what ‘I paid way over the odds for this membership’, but it was just the crazy times we were in…

Again I would imagine a certain percentage of the excising members (like you get in any part of society) might be unfriendly/ignorant to new members coming in on the cheap, when they paid big money to join. With the new members taking their 8.48am tee time on a Sunday morning when they normally booked it for the last donkey years (or to put it frankly… pissed off!!!), but I suppose they’ll just have to get over it.

Spoke to a guy over Christmas who told me he recently joined a club and put his name down for a Sunday competition. He didn’t know a soul or a sinner in the place so just stuck his name down at whatever time was free. He showed up on the first tee at the appropriate time, met the lads he was due to play with. After nine holes he was getting on particularly well with one fella, come the 12th hole another playing partner asked how much did he get in for, my mate said he got in for nothing, just the sub and for the rest of the round that fella he got on so well with for the first nines holes would barley speak to him. Quite obviously he was well annoyed at him joining for nothing but there you go! Quite rightly my mate said he wouldn’t lose any sleep over it!!!!

Russman

Have to agree with the opening post. I'm a new member to the forum and have been reading avidly and that seems to be on the mark.

Speaking for myself I'm a member of a members owned club, joined as a juvenile, went through junior, student etc and now a full member for the last ten years or so. Maybe its just me, but it wouldn't bother me in the slightest that a playing partner got in for nothing. The club has recently abolished entrance fees and I've actually introduced 2 friends for membership in the last 2 years. One paid €7.5k in 2007 and one paid nothing last year !! They're philosophical enough about it. Whats much more important in my view is that members "buy into" the club spirit, especially with a view to teams etc. Thats something that seems to be lacking in some of the clubs that introduced "annual memberships" in the last year or two. I know a few friends who joined a few of those eg South County or Druids Heath (that I can think of off the top of my head) and the one comment they make is that the courses are great but they're stuck with the same 3 or 4 players all the time.

For anyone to be grumpy over paying, say, 8 or 10 grand a few years ago whereas someone can get in for nothing now is pointless. After all, someone who bought a house 5 years ago paid a lot more than someone buying a house now, thats markets for you. OK you may feel hard done by but its not the fault of the new member who got in for free, what do you want them to do ? Offer thousands so I can feel better ??:)
Plus that argument can be turned on its head and a potential new member could ask "Why should i pay €10k now when you paid €500 15 years ago, its the same club, no ?"

There's not a whole lot we can do about the recession so golfers should view it as a good thing that the game is more accessible now than ever and if in the future that leads to one or two more Padraig Harringtons its got to be good. As long as new members are educated in the etiquette of the game there shouldn't be a problem.

The one thing that does annoy me is the people who go from one club to another year after year in search of the cheapest annual membership - theri choice but to me its not what a club is about.

PhilipMarlowe

I paid an entrance fee (~3k+) to join my club and currently the entrance fee is zero. It doesn't bother me in the slightest that someone else gets in now for no entrance fee because I considered it good value at the time (2003?). Hey, it's even better value now but such is life.

If a club has enough members and people waiting to join, then it's only right that those coming in (when all the facilities have been put in place) would pay a fee.
Without charging an entrance fee, is the annual subscription going to rise for everyone? Of course, now those fees are on the decrease to try and attract more people but how sustainable is that? There has to be a point where costs bottom out and to maintain standards (quality of the course) then "x" income needs to come in. You either have to get that as time or money from the members.

I don't understand the begrudging attitude against new members.

ShriekingSheet

I don't think there's any ill feeling on the board here caused by the drop in fees. I was a junior during the boom, and never paid an entrance fee. Though I have been on the "1" side of heated debates, the ill feeling your noticing, imo, is more to do with the way some of the new influx treat golf membership.

There's some aspects they don't like, and regardless of what the rest of the membership think, they want them changed. Just as illustrative examples...

They might just want to show up and play golf so don't want a clubhouse, or want to change how handicaps are monitored, or point to a Barton Cup run and say "hey, why are we all paying for a handful of guys to have dinner and a drink?".

It's a great game, and being in a golf club is great. I just have issue with someone who effectively shows up and says "yeah, yeah, I know this is how you've done it for years, but this other way suits me better...".

Myksyk

If my club's entrance fee drops to zero I'm leaving and then joining again so at least I can say I joined for nothing!!!

Kevinmarkham

Insightful responses from everyone (Myksk excepted!). I agree with everything that's been said. Times change, so that's what happens.

The fear now at many clubs is that existing members are going to leave or take a 'leave of absence' for a year or two, because they can't afford the annual sub. If there are new members coming in, that should balance out.

The more people who take up golf and become a part of a club, the better.

billy3sheets

I'm in category 1, having joined my club 10 years ago. Entrance fee was probably about 2.5K punts. Now it's 300 euro or so. Like most of the other posts here, I say "that's life" and don't let it bother me. I got a friend of mine in at the new cheap rate so I'm happy for him.
What annoys me most is the attitude of some posters to clubs. Many seem to think they are all elitist organizations which have entrance screening based on your standing in society etc. Some are but lots aren't. They are member-owned clubs which simply try to provide the best value for members in terms of course & facilities for an agreed annual fee. Many clubs did this successfully over the past 10 years especially. Entrance fees provided some extra capital to spend on projects to improve course and facilities.

As a result of the economic situation, the financial models of most clubs has to change. Entrance fees have to be reduced or removed to get enough members in to survive. This will mean that the improvement & maintenance projects will have to be stopped & this will mean a struggle to maintain the standards. This will impact all golfers regardless of how much they paid.

Russman

+1 to all that from Billy,
Cat 1 myself too, in the good times clubs were able to provide a certain level of service/course etc and the members were able to afford it - after all in most cases the members voted for it at AGMs, all of which is perfectly fine. Now that times have changed, a lot of clubs and people have to re-visit their priorities and finances and adjust accordingly. If that means that, say, greens are not cut on a Thursday, well, is that such a bad thing in the overall scheme of things ?

Regarding the elitist view some people have, there's not too many clubs that are really like that - for sure there are some, and we could all probably name the same 5 or 6 clubs (?). Plenty of clubs still retain the intimate friendly feel. As Billy said they were simply providing what their members wanted.

It seems to me that a little common sense (which all the posts so far show) goes a long way to reconciling the two points of view that the opening post mentioned.

dinnyman

Thanks for the replies.

As as said I started playing again myself in 2009 after a break from playing regularly of about 10 years (during my 20's)

I'm now in a position whereby having stopped other sports I'd like to play some golf on a weekly basis from here on.

Thankfully for me it conincides with a massive drop in entry fees.

I fully do intend on becoming as much involved as possible in a club (competitions, events etc.)
But I just have a niggling feeling that some might begrudge the fact that I'm doing so at 10 odd €k of a difference - even though the circumstances have nothing to do with me personally.


If people are as measured as some of the replies here - hopefully it wont be a problem.

Russman

Really it shouldn't be a problem. There are so many clubs out there who have massively reduced or abolished entrance fees altogether that you should have a good choice. Do your research before you decide on a club to join, see if you know any members, find out what the club scene is like in that club etc etc.
I'm sure any case of begrudgery will be isolated and that person isn't worth worrying about anyway.

Mister Sifter

All you have to do is point out to them that if the club wasn't taking in the likes of you then they would be either levying original members/upping their annual subs or closing the doors. Simples.

ShriekingSheet

With regard to my previous post, thinking about it, I do understand why certain newcomers to golf don't have the same enthusiasm to adhere to traditions and protocols when joining a club.

Not so long ago, joining a club was a huge deal. It was hard to get in to most places as demand was high, it was a big expense and it was also seen as a your permanent golfing base and part of your social life for good. No wonder guys were so keen to really take in what the club was all about.

But these days, golf membership is like gym membership. People can just dip in and out of different clubs, investing very little cash compared to days gone by, and as such, contribute similarly little to the club as a member, other than to show up and play golf. So it's become a year long green fee really.

You can hardly blame people. It's like the iPhone, a once expensive and coveted device, the pride and joy of technically savvy early-adopters, taking great care of it, and using every inch of web, wap and app functionality to wow their mates.
These days they're free on mobile networks, anyone can get one. People who really just make calls and send the odd text have one. And if they drop it in the toilet, sure what harm, they can get an upgrade next month!

The Druid's Heath thing was one example springs to mind. I nearly got sick when I heard the fairways were in bits in the months after the 1.5k offer came out, because some new members were not replacing divots

This may sound a bit mad, but the one benefit of high fees, was when people did join, they were keen as mustard to get stuck in and invovled, and get the best out of their club. It's noticable that the same level of enthusiasm isn't there among some of the new influx. I'm not being critical to be combative. Or looking back longingly at days when golf was exclusive and expensive. I'm saying we in group 1 want to see you in group 2 having the same enthusiasm and loyalty for clubs as we have had. Who says you need to shell out a fortune to love your club?

soundsham

dinnyman wrote: »

I've been following this board now for roughly a year or so and admittedly I contribute very little in content. But there's been a number of debates / arguments on here over the past couple of months which I find very interesting.

Whether people are aware or not - it looks like theres two seperate "factions" here.

1. Long (relatively) term members of clubs who have paid entrance fees in the past and concerned what effect the current climate will have on their club's well being.

2. Previously casual players who as a result of the current climate, may now be in a position to join a good club. These are also concerned about their potential new clubs future.

This puts clubs in a difficult situation because (1.) wants their club to retain the "value" that they see in their own outlay over the years and (2.) wants even better "value up front" now in the short term.

I'm back playing now after a break of 10 years and I will be joining a club in the coming weeks. In all likelihood it will be in a club that has either greatly reduced it's joing fee or now has no entrance fee whatsoever.

So (after all that) my question is - What do you think existing member's feelings; ill or otherwise are about an influx of new members into their club? at a much lower cost that what they themselves paid?

What group (1. or 2.) are you yourself in and what do you think?

thanks

same as the guy next door buying his house for 30% less than you paid ......why let it eat you up.......move on

category 1 myself..........couldn't care less,I now have more friends golfing than before

carnsoreboxer

I've been following this thread with interest as I am in the reverse situation. Presently in a club where there has never been any entrance fees but considering strongly moving to a club closer to home, in good financial position, good club house and club members, I believe, but still retains it's membership fee - it's supply on demand. They are not shouting for members and presently only have 2 vacant places RIP! May be more after subs due date has passed. Have to make up my mind in next 10 days when my own sub is due. And no I'm not loaded, but new club will allow entrance fee to be spread over 5 years.

Johnny_Fontane

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

The Druid's Heath thing was one example springs to mind. I nearly got sick when I heard the fairways were in bits in the months after the 1.5k offer came out, because some new members were not replacing divots

maybe they were all used to playing in Old Head where you're told not to replace divots.......

ShriekingSheet

soundsham wrote: »

same as the guy next door buying his house for 30% less than you paid ......why let it eat you up.......move on

category 1 myself..........couldn't care less,I now have more friends golfing than before

Spot on. Exactly the same myself.

dinnyman, I really don't think you're going to encounter any issue. Of the hundreds of members in any given club, they paid all sorts of different fees over the years, some as juniors and students into full membership, others as adults at the peak of the market, but no one differentiates. You're all in the club, all equal.