A6N Tubing. Info needed.

papac

I have been offered a deal on an alloy frameset by a framebuilder in uk.Its made from A6N alu tubing. I can't find much online about this tubing. A few uk builders are using it and I have seen claims that its as light as Columbus Starship.

Anybone know anything about it.???

The reason I am interested is that its a tiny 650c frame (485mm tt :eek:) which would make a nice bike for my other half -frames this size are rare and the price is good.

kona

papac wrote: »

I have been offered a deal on an alloy frameset by a framebuilder in uk.Its made from A6N alu tubing. I can't find much online about this tubing. A few uk builders are using it and I have seen claims that its as light as Columbus Starship.

Anybone know anything about it.???

The reason I am interested is that its a tiny 650c frame (485mm tt :eek:) which would make a nice bike for my other half -frames this size are rare and the price is good.

Sounds Bogey tbh.

What Alloy is designated A6N?

Its not aluminium as they seem to employ,
Depending on the alloy Aluminium is
1XXX
2XXX
3XXX
4XXX
5XXX
6XXX
7XXX
8XXX

This is followed by a Letter or a combination of a letter and a number.

eg 6061 T6 is Aluminium alloyed with Magnesium and silicone, and Heat treated and artificially aged.

Never ever heard of Aluminium described in Letter/Number/Letter?

DirkVoodoo

I think it might be pure aluminium, i.e. the non alloyed, non wrought (4 digit) variety that Kona is talking about.

I can't imagine that pure aluminium would be used for bike tubing, without any alloy additions or heat treatment for strength/fatigue resistance.

Might want to ask him do they use wrought aluminium in their bikes, and if so, what grade.

papac

Don't think its a designation of the alloy.
More like a brand name.
Some pretty respectable names using it.
I thought it might be reasonably good generic butted tubing-possibly chinese.-

kona

papac wrote: »

Don't think its a designation of the alloy.
More like a brand name.
Some pretty respectable names using it.
I thought it might be reasonably good generic butted tubing-possibly chinese.-

If it was good, they would make sure you knew it was.

At best its basic 6061, at worse its anything.

No way is it pure aluminium, it wouldnt last a bump.

To hell with brand names, The grade of the tubing is what matters, when ya know that then you can move onto the brands and the Butting.

DirkVoodoo

http://importer.ec21.com/buy_lead/Buy_Aluminium_Ingots_A6n_99.9999--81544.html

Aluminium Ingots, rated according to purity perhaps?

I refer to my original post, might want to fire off an email to them.

DirkVoodoo

kona wrote: »

If it was good, they would make sure you knew it was.

At best its basic 6061, at worse its anything.

No way is it pure aluminium, it wouldnt last a bump.

If it were a wrought alloy they would be using the ANSI standards, simple as.

papac

Thanks for replies.
I had seen that ingots link.
I do intend to inquire about it tomorrow but I like to know the answers to questions before I ask them-Less likely to get spun a line that way.

I am fairly sure that A6N is the brand name(Maybe a reference to using that type of raw alu in the alloy)-Will have to find out.

kona

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

If it were a wrought alloy they would be using the ANSI standards, simple as.

Of which Ive described above?

Perhaps its not aluminium?

kona

If they are using pure aluminium.(99.999999999999999%) in that frame, expect the tubing and weight to be enormous.

No way can they produce a frame thats any way durable from pure aluminium.

Yield strength of pure Al is something like 7mPa.

Yield strength of Al alloy can be 200mPa+ depending on the alloying elements.

papac

No way can they produce a frame thats any way durable from pure aluminium

I wouldn't think for a second that the frame is pure aluminium.
It is of course a wrought alloy.
Bikes I have found online using it compare favourably weight-wise.

What Alloy is designated A6N?

Nobody suggested it was an alloy designation.
I think its a brand name.(Not a very inspired one maybe.)The type of alloy used in the tubing is yet to be determined.-Watch this space.:)It is definately aluminium alloy.
I just thought somebody might know something about it.

kona

papac wrote: »

I wouldn't think for a second that the frame is pure aluminium.
It is of course a wrought alloy.
Bikes I have found online using it compare favourably weight-wise.



Nobody suggested it was an alloy designation.
I think its a brand name.(Not a very inspired one maybe.)The type of alloy used in the tubing is yet to be determined.-Watch this space.:)It is definately aluminium alloy.
I just thought somebody might know something about it.

bit of a strange thing, Naming a bike after ingots of pure Al. Then not giving the grade?
On that alone id be skeptical.

Search google for A6N and this thread is around 4th. Again not too good.

DirkVoodoo

Brand name maybe, it's just very odd. Even columbus say that they use 7000 series for their branded "Airplane" series tubing and 6000 for "starship".

There is a logical reason why there is an internationally recognized standard, which is why I think you might just have been given the wrong information from the builder.

But we shall see. Could you find any information on forums about people using this guy's frames?

kona

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

Brand name maybe, it's just very odd. Even columbus say that they use 7000 series for their branded "Airplane" series tubing and 6000 for "starship".

There is a logical reason why there is an internationally recognized standard, which is why I think you might just have been given the wrong information from the builder.

But we shall see. Could you find any information on forums about people using this guy's frames?

For a builder to mistake what material he builds bikes from, is akin to Boeing claiming some of the composites on the Dreamliner is paper mache.

Steer clear, I wouldnt be handing over money for a frame thats possibly of less use than a Trax Dual susser or a Jerry -O- Speed.

blorg

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

Brand name maybe, it's just very odd. Even columbus say that they use 7000 series for their branded "Airplane" series tubing and 6000 for "starship".

There is a logical reason why there is an internationally recognized standard, which is why I think you might just have been given the wrong information from the builder.

But we shall see. Could you find any information on forums about people using this guy's frames?

I think people would agree that Easton make good tubes yet they use brand names like EA6X, GX2, RAD, SC7000 and Ultralite Race. Some of the names and compatibility notes hint at the aluminium series but they aren't ultimately that forthcoming.

kona

blorg wrote: »

I think people would agree that Easton make good tubes yet they use brand names like EA6X, GX2, RAD, SC7000 and Ultralite Race. Some of the names and compatibility notes hint at the aluminium series but they aren't ultimately that forthcoming.

Click onto them and they are quite forthcoming.
Obviously they are not going to tell you their exact production process, but they give enough info. Very useful Info that the "framebuilder" in Papacs case has omitted.

papac

I think people would agree that Easton make good tubes yet they use brand names like EA6X, GX2, RAD, SC7000 and Ultralite Race. Some of the names and compatibility notes hint at the aluminium series but they aren't ultimately that forthcoming

This was my thinking- sort of. It may prove to be sh1t but I am not going to dismiss it out of hand because it I don't know all the details..The guy isn't withholding info-he just didn't go into any detail in an email he sent me.All will be revealed tomorrow.

kona

papac wrote: »

This was my thinking- sort of. It may prove to be sh1t but I am not going to dismiss it out of hand because it I don't know all the details..The guy isn't withholding info-he just didn't go into any detail in an email he sent me.All will be revealed tomorrow.

Sounds like the Halfords equivelent of a Frame builder

DirkVoodoo

blorg wrote: »

I think people would agree that Easton make good tubes yet they use brand names like EA6X, GX2, RAD, SC7000 and Ultralite Race. Some of the names and compatibility notes hint at the aluminium series but they aren't ultimately that forthcoming.

Argh! Like I said, if you go to the Easton site and click EA6X tubing:

Standard 6061 heat-treat & age
• Fully compatible with 6061 alloy
• Best results with commonly available 4043 weld rod
• Produces crack-free weld zones for ultimate fatigue strength
• Powdercoat friendly at 350° F

That's what you would expect, brand name or no brand name, for a manufacturer to adhere to internationally recognised standards. If A6N is a brand name, surely he should have provided more information to Papac.

It sounds like some dodgy toothpaste commercial, with undefined, ambiguous "pro argen" formula.

blorg

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

Argh! Like I said, if you go to the Easton site and click EA6X tubing:

Standard 6061 heat-treat & age
• Fully compatible with 6061 alloy
• Best results with commonly available 4043 weld rod
• Produces crack-free weld zones for ultimate fatigue strength
• Powdercoat friendly at 350° F

That's what you would expect, brand name or no brand name, for a manufacturer to adhere to internationally recognised standards. If A6N is a brand name, surely he should have provided more information to Papac.

It sounds like some dodgy toothpaste commercial, with undefined, ambiguous "pro argen" formula.

They basically say it can be worked just like 6 series, but it's not 6 series (translation: it's 6 series enhanced in some way.) Anyway EA6X is the only one they give that level of detail, click on any of the others. RAD/FS for example:

Easton wrote:

RAD and Full Suspension Aluminum - MTB/Road tube sets

Designed for the ultimate in strength and stiffness, FS tubes are engineered for long-travel suspension and BMX bicycles where maximum durability is the priority.

OK Sherlock, what's that made out of.

SC7000? "Proprietary Easton SC7000 alloy" From the name I presume 7 series, just like I would presume this A6N stuff is six series of some sort.

DirkVoodoo

Scandium is not aluminium, hence referring to it as undergoing the same alloying/heat treatment standards would be incorrect, which is why there is no description.

EDIT: Ok, so scandium added to aluminium, I'll check out more on this. Let me get back to you.

As for RAD, I don't know much about mountain bikes. I'll google for more.

blorg

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

Scandium is not aluminium, hence referring to it as undergoing the same alloying/heat treatment standards would be incorrect, which is why there is no description.

As for RAD, I don't know much about mountain bikes. I'll google for more.

Scandium is an element but used in the context of bicycle tubes it is aluminium alloyed with a small percentage of scandium.

DirkVoodoo

blorg wrote: »

Scandium is an element but used in the context of bicycle tubes it is aluminium alloyed with a small percentage of scandium.

Scandium added to aluminium creates completely different phase diagrams, indeed the solution of even a small amount of scandium raises the recrystallization temperature and strength far above those of the usual alloying elements like manganese and chromium.

I think a "small" amount might be misleading, the atomic weight % of Al3Sc seems to be quite high.

At any rate, I think that this is why scandium-aluminium alloys are probably not listed under the ANSI heat treatment for regular aluminium alloys. Perhaps they have their own standard, I don't know.

EDIT: http://http://www.home.no/al-sc/

blorg

@OP- from a quick Google A6N seems to be a brand name for some form of relatively generic double-butted 6-series tubing. If it is any relief the likes of this audax bike from Pearson are made out of it... Pearson tend to have a good reputation for that sort of thing. Frames could be made in the UK but I wouldn't count on it- not that it matters much.

@Dirk- my point is simply that Easton don't go into any more detail on their website there as to what their alloys are made of. Admittedly if you dig a bit further around the net you can find out more about them as they are popular high-end tubesets.

I don't think this A6N stuff is necessarily Easton scandium-tubeset quality/lightness but it's not necessarily junk either.

DirkVoodoo

Some crowd called premier cycles too: http://www.premiercycles.co.uk/frameset.html

kona

blorg wrote: »

They basically say it can be worked just like 6 series, but it's not 6 series (translation: it's 6 series enhanced in some way.) Anyway EA6X is the only one they give that level of detail, click on any of the others. .

Its stronger because of the heat treatment they use. you can have 6061 T1, or 6061 T8. Both will have much different properties. Usually a high Yield strength will cause other valuable traits to be reduced.

blorg wrote: »

RAD/FS for example:



OK Sherlock, what's that made out of.

SC7000? "Proprietary Easton SC7000 alloy" From the name I presume 7 series, just like I would presume this A6N stuff is six series of some sort.

Its not Aluminium alloy at all.

Tis Scandium watson. A Much better material, and VERY expensive.

blorg

kona wrote: »

Its not Aluminium alloy at all.

Tis Scandium watson. A Much better material, and VERY expensive.

In the context of a bike or indeed any other industrial use, it is an aluminium alloy. Making aluminium alloys is the only major use of the stuff.

In fairness I dug this out where Easton go into their alloy in some detail.

kona

blorg wrote: »

In the context of a bike or indeed any other industrial use, it is an aluminium alloy. Making aluminium alloys is the only major use of the stuff.

In fairness I dug this out where Easton go into their alloy in some detail.

I was waiting for that, Have to be on the ball around here! LOL

DirkVoodoo

I think Blorg answered the question anyway, it is a brand name of Pearson tubing but doesn't seem to be that great.

blorg

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

I think Blorg answered the question anyway, it is a brand name of Pearson tubing but doesn't seem to be that great.

I don't think it's Pearson-specific, I think they just have that bike made out of it.

Another audax bike

These guys make cyclocross bikes out of it.

I'd probably be more concerned about whether you trust the framebuilder and his work than the specific tubing used.

As to weight it's not exactly difficult to weigh a frame if that is important to you.

kona

LOL at that Easton article.

They said that 6 and 7 series Al is weak. But dont give what series their fancy one is that was used with the scandium.:D

Well there ya go, Your bike is made from MiG wing tips and Soviet ICBM fins:cool:

They are also finding a fancy way to extract the scandium from the sun:D

papac

I'd probably be more concerned about whether you trust the framebuilder and his work than the specific tubing used.

Exactly. And if he is a trustworthy reputable guy he is unlikely to be using shoddy tubing.
I had seen all those bikes linked and reckon that while A6N ain't Rolls Royce its probably ok cheap tubing. - and its not being represented as anything but ok cheap tubing.
That Pearson got a good review from ctc. They certainly didn't have any negative opinions of the frame
http://www.ctc.org.uk/resources/Magazine/200807058.pdf