Winter tyres instead of salt?

johndb

I am not vehicle or roads expert but consider this view.

Would the investment of winter tires for all vehicles and public transport be more cost effective than salt and grit on the roads? As it is any individual with a vehicle can make the decision to buy winter tires but those reliant on buses can't. So why doesn't Bus Eireann or other bus operators not make the relevant investment. If tires were used for say a month each year they could possibly last 5 years. Could be used in combination with snow ploughs if heavy snow gathered. Government could subsidise people's purchase of special tyres, advise instructionally and/or provide facilities for changing tyres.

In Ireland it would be fair to say at least one week every year road transport is affected by the weather. With the possibility of a changing climate with more unpredictable weather in the future this would seem to be a wise investment at least in the public transport. Anyone got views, statistics or research on this?

Ham'nd'egger

I was getting my tyres checked the other day and the lads in the workshop were inundated with people looking for winter tyres, studded tyres and wheel chains. Few dealers here deal in them because they are not warranted and in the case of studded and winter tyres, there is a cost in putting them on and off your vehicle when needed. Studded tyres also rip up road tarmac and in dry conditions they may lose grip.

johndb wrote: »

I am not vehicle or roads expert but consider this view.

Would the investment of winter tires for all vehicles and public transport be more cost effective than salt and grit on the roads? As it is any individual with a vehicle can make the decision to buy winter tires but those reliant on buses can't. So why doesn't Bus Eireann or other bus operators not make the relevant investment. If tires were used for say a month each year they could possibly last 5 years. Could be used in combination with snow ploughs if heavy snow gathered. Government could subsidise people's purchase of special tyres, advise instructionally and/or provide facilities for changing tyres.

In Ireland it would be fair to say at least one week every year road transport is affected by the weather. With the possibility of a changing climate with more unpredictable weather in the future this would seem to be a wise investment at least in the public transport. Anyone got views, statistics or research on this?

Guy:Incognito

Theres quite a good chance that if Dublin bus and Bus Eireann went and bought a set of winter tyres for all their busses that they'd probably need them maybe once more over the life of the tyres. They'd most likely end up chucking out thousands of cracked tyres with nearly full thread left on them.
Plus they have to be stored somehwere.

That's a huge expense.



As a matter of interest how many busses are in the combined DB/BE fleet?

foggy_lad

simple answer for the op is that we dont get enough snow for long enough to warrent studded tyres or chains!

Hamndegger wrote: »

I was getting my tyres checked the other day and the lads in the workshop were inundated with people looking for winter tyres, studded tyres and wheel chains. Few dealers here deal in them because they are not warranted and in the case of studded and winter tyres, there is a cost in putting them on and off your vehicle when needed. Studded tyres also rip up road tarmac and in dry conditions they may lose grip.

afaik there is also a legal bar to using winter/studded tyres or chains where there is any risk of damage to the road surface!

Victor

Stekelly wrote: »

As a matter of interest how many busses are in the combined DB/BE fleet?

Something like 1,100 for Dublin Bus and 700 for BÉ, not including sub-contractors. About 10,000 buses total in the country.

Guy:Incognito

Victor wrote: »

Something like 1,100 for Dublin Bus and 700 for BÉ, not including sub-contractors. About 10,000 buses total in the country.

So even ignoring busses with more than 2 tyres on rear axles and/or more than 2 rear axles, were lookign at up to 40,000 tyres. Good luck what that unless grit becomes dearer than gold.:)

corktina

i would think that grooved tyres are no advantage over slicks on ice, whereas they will be an advantage on snow, so its several sets of tyres needed for each vehicle....

hugoline

johndb wrote: »

Would the investment of winter tires for all vehicles and public transport be more cost effective than salt and grit on the roads?

I wouldn't consider myself an expert either but I have grown up (and driven) in Switzerland, where the white stuff is a bit more comon than here.

In my opinion winter tyres do NOT make salt/grit redundant. They do grip better in cold conditions and on a minimal amount of snow. But they slip on ice as well (and that's what I have mostly seen on the roads here lately), especially with the irish driving style of full throttle and spinning wheels...

Salt is currently the fastest and probably cheapest option (for the councils) to make the roads safer. (Interesting to note though, that many places in Switzerland are trying to replace the salt by other means, as it does damage cars and is certainly not 100% friendly to the enviroment)

Snow chains can be helpful, but only if the whole road is covered.. as soon as the road is clearish... off they go (and even with the newer models it will take some time to install and get the off again).

Overall winter tyres don't make much economic sense for most part of ireland (i.e. a few days per year) as they can cost a multiple of your regular tyres and wear down much faster back on tarmac. If you live in a remote area then that may be a different story and are required to get you places.

Absurdum

Some extra snow plows and gritters combined with proper planning for these events would make more economical sense imo.

seclachi

As hugoline says, I doubt they are a replacement for gritting the roads, and the logistics and cost of them for a the few days of frost we normally get would be wasteful compared to months of use in colder country's.

Garages would however love you for it.

neilthefunkeone

Yeah a couple of plow conversions for already owned council van's trucks and a hefty back up supply of salt/grit would solve the current problems..

joewicklow

Its a good idea to think of Public Transport but dont forget about all the commercial vehicles that deliver the milk, bread, coal, heating oil and other supplies to every supermarket, corner shop and house in the country. Every one of those vehicles would need tyres too.

dowlingm

Snow tyres were made compulsory in the Province of Quebec last year which caused a run on stocks across Canada as dealers bought up the available production. Here in Ontario it isn't but I suspect they are keeping an eye on the effect up the road. Mostly the issue is about snow whereas 90% of winter driving issues in Ireland are about ice so you need to see if your tyres are ice-optimised like Michelin's X-Ice. Only where winters are compulsory could you consider switching to sand and you'd need NI to harmonise to stop carnage on the cross border routes.

Studded tyres can be used in Canada but only within certain date ranges as when not required they rip the road up.

The issue with winters as opposed to so-called "all-seasons" is not just the tread pattern but the rubber compound. Essentially, all-seasons stop gripping effectively at temperatures below freezing whereas the winters can in some cases grip at -30C. You want summer tyres to grip at higher temps because otherwise the tyres will wear to nothing in the heat of summer when air temp might be +25 but road surface temp could be a LOT more.

The other issue is drivers thinking winter tyres make them bulletproof - it only helps, it doesn't solve winter driving issues and while you might have them chances are the guy behind/in front doesn't so you have to mind your spacing.

KevR

Under-road heating for major roads would be ideal. They have tried this on a few stretches of road in the UK but, as far as I know, the cost is prohibitive and nearly all the systems which were installed were found to be very unreliable. It's a pity that it's not really viable at the moment.

Ham'nd'egger

Just thinking, if I had have bought winter tyres 3 weeks ago, my circa €800 rubbers would be costing me about another €40 to take them off and replace with my €600 normal ones now.

etar

I paid 340 euro for 4 winter tyres 6 weeks ago and I have to say they were worth it. I'll be taking them off again next week if this mild weather continues. It gave me an advantage going up and down hills and on snow. But not much advantage when d rain fell on d snow&ice st stephen's day.

BostonB

Its too early to say if this weather event is going to repeat.

For me the issue was the traffic from road/hill closures rather than not getting stuck on my slippery summer tyres.

antoinolachtnai

We had a winter tread on Swords Express this year and it seems to have been a big help. You still need the grit and salt though.

CIE

Winter tyres are supposed to help with snow traction. Traction on ice cannot be guaranteed with them, even with studs and/or chains. (Just like four-wheel drive doesn't help with ice traction. The ice has to go, and only salt will help there.)

Cool Mo D

Winter tyres are better than normal tyres for 4 months of the year in typical Irish conditions - whenever ground conditions are below 7 C. They help with all grip in cold conditions- including snow and ice, and even on cold clear roads.

Phasing them in to the bus fleet over a few years would be a very sensible idea. They are not a substitute for salt/grit however.

GTE

Talk about studded tyres and snow chains is pointless because we dont get enough snow and they will just rip the roads up. I believe they are also illegal for the most part too.

Talk about studless winter tyres is where it should be at.

On Winter spec tyres my car did fantastically over the non treated roads. Both snow and ice.
Winter spec tyres will give cars more snow and ice grip. You can go down the roads as quick as you could in the Summer, that is just impossible but the fundamental grip is increased quite a lot. So, for buses that would mean they could get going and get through bad roads better if the drivers are trained.


For buses I dont know how the weight would play into it on snow but the ice should be gotten rid of and prevented from day one.
IMO Winters spec tyres on all vehicles should be promoted as the grip difference from Summers is very surprising. And remember, winter does not = snow.

These air temp figures for the past good few years show that at least in air temp we are in Winter tyre territory for 5 or 6 months of the year.
How air temps reflect in road temps is something I dont know.
http://www.met.ie/climate/temperature.asp