bring the death penalty back for dissidents!

callig

We need to come down heavily on those trying to wreck the peace process, the people of Ireland North and South have suffered enough.

Murder bid on PSNI man widely condemned


By Lisa Smyth and Tom Brady
Saturday, 9 January 2010

Peadar Heffron (33), who joined the PSNI in March 2002, was said to be in a critical condition last night as surgeons at the Royal Victoria Hospital battled to save his life.

The officer suffered massive injuries to his lower body.

He was stabilised at Antrim Area Hospital before he was transferred to Belfast. It is understood a priest was called to his bedside yesterday to administer the Last Rites.

Constable Heffron, who married last year and is related to a senior Sinn Fein member, was driving along the Milltown Road in Randalstown, half a mile from his home, when the device exploded shortly after 6am yesterday.

...

Constable Heffron has been described by those who know him as well respected and well liked. Captain of the PSNI Gaelic team, he was proud of his Irish heritage and took part in the first ever Policing Board meeting held in Irish in Londonderry last year.

At the meeting in May, Constable Heffron delivered a presentation in Irish on the work of the police. He told those gathered: “There is undoubtedly a challenge before the PSNI to promote a career or profession in the PSNI in a community where such a possibility would have been impossible a few years ago.”

...

PSNI Chief Constable Matt |Baggott said: “Our colleague was brutally targeted in a cowardly attack as he left his home to travel to work.

“He suffered critical injuries and is currently being treated in hospital. Our thoughts and prayers are with him, his wife and his family at this very difficult and trying time.

“The vast majority of people who have heard today's news have been horrified.

“Indeed, throughout the day I have received messages of support from across the world and all communities.”

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/murder-bid-on-psni-man-widely-condemned-14628893.html

Caoimhín

Have you learned nothing from the past 100 years of violence in Ireland? Making martyrs out of them would play right into their hands.

Joey the lips

Caoimhín wrote: »

Have you learned nothing from the past 100 years of violence in Ireland? Making martyrs out of them would play right into their hands.

more importantly, if your bringing the death penalty back its coming back for everything.

Amnestly international has demonstrated in case after case that it cost's a country a lot more to kill a person then prision them for life. If i can find the links i will post but anyone who joined amnestly while in university will have learned this.(I only joined because it was one of the few organisations besides volleyball that contained more women)


The solution is not to bring back the death penality but enforce the current laws to the full and if someone gets 10years they get 10 years not 8 for good behavior. If they could manage to be good in prision they are proving that they are worthy for release.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Joey the lips wrote: »

The solution is not to bring back the death penality but enforce the current laws to the full and if someone gets 10years they get 10 years not 8 for good behavior. If they could manage to be good in prision they are proving that they are worthy for release.

Have to disagree with this. My uncle's a prison officer and in that kind of environment they need the prisoners to have motivation to behave well whilst inside, otherwise it would be a much more dangerous job

What I would suggest is for the same crime give them 12 years and get out after 10 for good behaviour

Bottle_of_Smoke

Does anyone know if they specifically targeted him for being a Catholic?

I can understand the logic there as they could see him as a traitor but surely that flys in the face of republicans being non-sectarian?

I know Cathloics in the RUC were a tiny minority but there were a few - were they targeted as a higher priority during the troubles?

Joey the lips

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Have to disagree with this. My uncle's a prison officer and in that kind of environment they need the prisoners to have motivation to behave well whilst inside, otherwise it would be a much more dangerous job

What I would suggest is for the same crime give them 12 years and get out after 10 for good behaviour

Try increasing the sentence for bad behaviour and see how long the problem lasts.

I think we are to quick to dismiss our problems rather than deal with them.

Can you imagine how difficult it would be for your uncle dealing with someone who knows they will be killed at 12.30 on 15th june...

mickstupp

Joey the lips wrote: »

Amnestly international has demonstrated in case after case that it cost's a country a lot more to kill a person then prision them for life. If i can find the links i will post but anyone who joined amnestly while in university will have learned this.

I could never quite get my head around this. I don't understand how it's even possible. Unless you're talking about more than just the financial cost? Because on finances alone... if it's costing a country more to kill people then imprison them, they're simply doing it wrong.

As to the thread, I don't think you should be bringing a death penalty back for dissidents. Serial murderers/rapists maybe... or child sex abusers...
But hey, that's just a personal opinion. I can't see it ever happening.

Joey the lips

mickstupp wrote: »

I could never quite get my head around this. I don't understand how it's even possible. Unless you're talking about more than just the financial cost? Because on finances alone... if it's costing a country more to kill people then imprison them, they're simply doing it wrong.

As to the thread, I don't think you should be bringing a death penalty back for dissidents. Serial murderers/rapists maybe... or child sex abusers...
But hey, that's just a personal opinion. I can't see it ever happening.

Its to do with due process. You are entitled to apeal a death penalty etc on legal grounds because of it finality.

Its estimated it costs 10 thousend a year to house a prisioner in america. Its also estimated it costs 250 000 to kill the same person. Thats 25 years in prision.

again I am not out to defend the death penality or renounce it but personally I think we need to get other aspects right first,

Spiritoftheseventies

Joey the lips wrote: »

Its to do with due process. You are entitled to apeal a death penalty etc on legal grounds because of it finality.

Its estimated it costs 10 thousend a year to house a prisioner in america. Its also estimated it costs 250 000 to kill the same person. Thats 25 years in prision.

again I am not out to defend the death penality or renounce it but personally I think we need to get other aspects right first,

Do we want to go down that road. Best of wishes to the police officer who was fluent in Irish by the way. As other post said we do not want to be making martyrs out of these people. Two wrongs dont make a right. The death penalty is wrong and I think given the debate we had on Lisbon over it it would cause a huge storm if it was introduced.

callig

Caoimhín wrote: »

Have you learned nothing from the past 100 years of violence in Ireland? Making martyrs out of them would play right into their hands.

madmen whose 'aims' are no longer relevant do not become 'martyrs'

They are a scourge of society and should be wiped out once and for all!

Spiritoftheseventies

callig wrote: »

madmen whose 'aims' are no longer relevant do not become 'martyrs'

They are a scourge of society and should be wiped out once and for all!

If Im right Lisbon Treaty is fundamentally against the death penalty. Dont think there is any need to discuss this any further.

Caoimhín

callig wrote: »

madmen whose 'aims' are no longer relevant do not become 'martyrs'

They are a scourge of society and should be wiped out once and for all!

I believe Billy Wright http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Wright_(loyalist) is a martyr and a legend in some communities.

Scofflaw

bayviewclose wrote: »

If Im right Lisbon Treaty is fundamentally against the death penalty. Dont think there is any need to discuss this any further.

The Charter of Fundamental Rights contains a prohibition on the death penalty except in time of war (removal of the civilian death penalty is also a precondition of EU membership), but we have been for some years now signatories to Protocol 13 of the European Convention on Human Rights, which prohibits the death penalty in any form, as is the UK.

Short of rolling back both Protocol 13 and Lisbon, there is no possibility of either Ireland or the UK instituting the death penalty - so, yes, the thread is ridiculous on the face of it. I'm assuming, however, that the point of the thread is not the death penalty per se, but rather expresses outrage at those who attempt to derail the peace process.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Joey the lips

bayviewclose wrote: »

Do we want to go down that road. Best of wishes to the police officer who was fluent in Irish by the way. As other post said we do not want to be making martyrs out of these people. Two wrongs dont make a right. The death penalty is wrong and I think given the debate we had on Lisbon over it it would cause a huge storm if it was introduced.

I never said I did. Are you confusing me with someone else. I am against the death penality.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Joey the lips wrote: »

Try increasing the sentence for bad behaviour and see how long the problem lasts.

I think we are to quick to dismiss our problems rather than deal with them.

Can you imagine how difficult it would be for your uncle dealing with someone who knows they will be killed at 12.30 on 15th june...

Joey I agree with you regarding the death penalty.

I guess the increased sentences could be an idea, Maybe better because under the current system once someone causes trouble they no longer have motivation to be well behaved.

Bottle_of_Smoke

callig wrote: »

madmen whose 'aims' are no longer relevant do not become 'martyrs'

They are a scourge of society and should be wiped out once and for all!

Leaders of the 1916 rising weren't popular until they were executed.

SDLP were far more popular than Sinn Fein before the hunger strikes.

If there was another loughall but on the RIRA I could see their popularity increasing

bmaxi

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Leaders of the 1916 rising weren't popular until they were executed.

SDLP were far more popular than Sinn Fein before the hunger strikes.

If there was another loughall but on the RIRA I could see their popularity increasing

While I agree with most of what you say, I don't understand the logic in respect of Loughgall. At the time of Loughgall the Provos were supported in a large section of the Nationalist community, the hunger strikes were fresh in the memory and the RUC were a hated enemy. None of those apply today.
The RIRA do not have the support of the community, quite the opposite from what I gather, the Provos are in Government and on a recent trip to Belfast I passed a lone police officer in a patrol car on the Falls road, this would not have happened at the time of Loughgall.
While I don't advocate a mass slaughter of the RIRA, I think there a lot of people who wouldn't shed tears over them.

Spiritoftheseventies

To re-iterate Lisbon treaty is fundamentally opposed to the Lisbon Treaty. I am sure most people did not vote so where this the case. I would ask people to desist from putting up sensationalist threads which serve no other purpose but to stir up emotions.

http://english.people.com.cn/90001/90777/6279758.html

Bottle_of_Smoke

bmaxi wrote: »

While I agree with most of what you say, I don't understand the logic in respect of Loughgall. At the time of Loughgall the Provos were supported in a large section of the Nationalist community, the hunger strikes were fresh in the memory and the RUC were a hated enemy. None of those apply today.
The RIRA do not have the support of the community, quite the opposite from what I gather, the Provos are in Government and on a recent trip to Belfast I passed a lone police officer in a patrol car on the Falls road, this would not have happened at the time of Loughgall.
While I don't advocate a mass slaughter of the RIRA, I think there a lot of people who wouldn't shed tears over them.

Sorry I didn't mean to stress loughall in the same sense as 1916/post hunger strike sinn fein. I think if a RIRA active service unit was taken out in a similar manner it could lead to more people supporting them. Northern Ireland's a very small place with a very small population. If say 5-10 members were shot dead in a loughall style operation brothers/cousins/friends would be more likely to become anti-power sharing and even people who didn't know them too well would be more likely to join dissident groups

Spiritoftheseventies

bmaxi wrote: »

While I agree with most of what you say, I don't understand the logic in respect of Loughgall. At the time of Loughgall the Provos were supported in a large section of the Nationalist community, the hunger strikes were fresh in the memory and the RUC were a hated enemy. None of those apply today.
The RIRA do not have the support of the community, quite the opposite from what I gather, the Provos are in Government and on a recent trip to Belfast I passed a lone police officer in a patrol car on the Falls road, this would not have happened at the time of Loughgall.
While I don't advocate a mass slaughter of the RIRA, I think there a lot of people who wouldn't shed tears over them.

Again the best way for peace is dialogue. By dialogue you bring in the more moderate elements. The death Penalty would be like aiming a cannonball at a fly and missing. Again its wrong. We did not spend the best part of six months debating the Lisbon treaty and the treaty for threads like this to be posted. The EU has gone on record as saying it opposes the death penalty. We should leave it at that.

bmaxi

bayviewclose wrote: »

Again the best way for peace is dialogue. By dialogue you bring in the more moderate elements. The death Penalty would be like aiming a cannonball at a fly and missing. Again its wrong. We did not spend the best part of six months debating the Lisbon treaty and the treaty for threads like this to be posted. The EU has gone on record as saying it opposes the death penalty. We should leave it at that.

You're preaching to the converted here. In respect of the RIRA though, IMO there is no dialogue to be had with them. I believe these guys are just criminals who have dressed themselves in Republican clothes to garner a semblance of "respectability", for want of a better word.
It is in their interests to have heavily armed and armoured security forces in their area because they know this gets up the noses of the local populace.

Voipjunkie

Joey the lips wrote: »

more importantly, if your bringing the death penalty back its coming back for everything.

Amnestly international has demonstrated in case after case that it cost's a country a lot more to kill a person then prision them for life. If i can find the links i will post but anyone who joined amnestly while in university will have learned this.(I only joined because it was one of the few organisations besides volleyball that contained more women)


The solution is not to bring back the death penality but enforce the current laws to the full and if someone gets 10years they get 10 years not 8 for good behavior. If they could manage to be good in prision they are proving that they are worthy for release.

Not to mention that whatever country introduced the death penalty would have to leave the EU. A high price to pay for retribution.

Spiritoftheseventies

Voipjunkie wrote: »

Not to mention that whatever country introduced the death penalty would have to leave the EU. A high price to pay for retribution.

Death Penalty is only a last resort in times of war and anarchy and a provision was left in in treaty in to appease two countries to best of my knowledge. This does not apply here. A vile act on that police officer but anyone who was any knowledge of irish history will knows about the recriminations that followed during the civil war where there summary executions. caused serious rifts.
We do not need to go back to those days and talk of death penalty is plain irresponsible imo.

sceptre

Leaving aside the rights or wrongs of the death penalty, no-one's actually been able to demonstrate in any way whatever that the reintroduction of the death penalty in these cases would have any effect at all.

This is the traditional knee jerk reaction I expect to see from some of the more idiotic UK tabloids with all the logic of:
"We must do something"
"This is something (man is it something!)
"Ah cool, let's do that"
(this is often known as the politician's fallacy to anyone who isn't familiar with it)

Step one in doing something about crimes such as this in particular is to get better at catching the guys in question. Until then, it doesn't matter a fiddlers fiddle if the penalty is being put to death or being pelted with wet lettuce.

And even then, no-one's been bothered on this thread to demonstrate that it would have an effect. Without that it's just a silly knee-jerk "wah" response. To which I say "meh" as a perfectly equal counterargument.

Demonstrate effect, that it would actually make a difference at all (pick any jurisdiction you like as an example), and I might be interested in contributing to this thread a second time as a poster. Until then, "meh".

Rebelheart

bmaxi wrote: »

The RIRA do not have the support of the community, quite the opposite from what I gather.

Perhaps not at the moment. But latent republicanism can be a criticial force for change in Irish political culture. There's the all-important historical perspective here which you appear to be missing. In this respect, Caoimhín above was on the money.

Jaap

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Have to disagree with this. My uncle's a prison officer and in that kind of environment they need the prisoners to have motivation to behave well whilst inside, otherwise it would be a much more dangerous job

What I would suggest is for the same crime give them 12 years and get out after 10 for good behaviour

I would prefer criminals to behave better in the outside world than better in jail! I want them to suffer in jails...feel sorry for the the criminal act that has led them to be banged up in the first place!
So we say to criminals...you are to supposed to be serving say 5 years...but if you are a good wee boy or girl you might get a year off your sentence...which is the way it is today...a joke! How hard is it to misbehave in jail anyway? Much harder to get up to no good in the outside...where the criminals will be 1 year sooner than they should be!

Getting back to the topic of the thread...those who are prepared to take life should be willing to have their life taken if caught!

Good to see the Gardai arresting 3 men in Co. Cavan yesterday by the way and recovering a handgun...co-operation between them and PSNI to address the dissident threat is welcomed!

RiverWilde

Re-instating the death penalty would be a wholly retrograde step. What we do need to do is look at sentencing policy in the Republic.

There are people being sent to gaol for crimes that do not warrant a custodial sentence and this happens alongside the laughable situation where a murderer is released early for good behaviour.

If the govt. would just stop wasting taxpayers money and BUILD the necessary infrastructure we might just get somewhere. I won't be holding my breath though. If they won't reform the health services and education system there is no way in hell they'll reform the penal system.

Riv

Liam Byrne

If considered, it shouldn't just be for dissidents who commit serious crimes; as someone said that will just make them martyrs in the eyes of some blinkered and deluded apologists.

If considered, it should be for all serious crimes, regardless of the delusion or intent behind the committing of same.

Spiritoftheseventies

Liam Byrne wrote: »

If considered, it shouldn't just be for dissidents who commit serious crimes; as someone said that will just make them martyrs in the eyes of some blinkered and deluded apologists.

If considered, it should be for all serious crimes, regardless of the delusion or intent behind the committing of same.

This is unreal. Study the Lisbon treaty lads.

bmaxi

Rebelheart wrote: »

Perhaps not at the moment. But latent republicanism can be a criticial force for change in Irish political culture. There's the all-important historical perspective here which you appear to be missing. In this respect, Caoimhín above was on the money.

I agree but the difference this time is that republicans are in Government, thats something that hasn't been part of the mix before.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Jaap wrote: »

How hard is it to misbehave in jail anyway? Much harder to get up to no good in the outside...where the criminals will be 1 year sooner than they should be!

When you consider how many prisoners compared to guards in a junkie prison like mountjoy for example there needs to be a system in control to stop riots and prisoners kidnapping guards with syringes full of hepatitis at the worst end of the scale, and to prevent fights, injuries etc at the lower end.

Getting back to the topic of the thread...those who are prepared to take life should be willing to have their life taken if caught!

Ideologically that's fine but in the real world you make them martyrs

DoireNod

Jaap wrote: »

I would prefer criminals to behave better in the outside world than better in jail! I want them to suffer in jails

So you're a sadist?

...feel sorry for the the criminal act that has led them to be banged up in the first place!

Alot of criminals won't ever feel remorse.

Getting back to the topic of the thread...those who are prepared to take life should be willing to have their life taken if caught!

So you believe in the principle of an eye for an eye? You agree with killing people?

callig

Let's not lose sight of the fact that we're talking about a tiny minority here who have taken it upon themselves to wage war on the peace processs and are intent on killing innocent people. They DO NOT represent republicanism in any way shape or form.
I believe we are at a stage now where the only way to deal with these degenerates is to eradicate them so that the right-thinking men and women of this island can carry on living in peace.

Bottle_of_Smoke

callig wrote: »

Let's not lose sight of the fact that we're talking about a tiny minority here who have taken it upon themselves to wage war on the peace processs and are intent on killing innocent people. They DO NOT represent republicanism in any way shape or form.

Well thats your opinon. They consider accepting and taking part in British rule not being representative of republicanism in any way shape or form.

I believe we are at a stage now where the only way to deal with these degenerates is to eradicate them so that the right-thinking men and women of this island can carry on living in peace.

So you're thinking SAS squads? If your belief was in any way grounded in reality it would have been done long ago. The British government know well that kind of action would radicalize their communites and bring them international support.

callig

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Well thats your opinon. They consider accepting and taking part in British rule not being representative of republicanism in any way shape or form.

Why are you speaking on behalf of dissidents? Are you a terrorist sympatiser?

Caoimhín

callig wrote: »

Why are you speaking on behalf of dissidents? Are you a terrorist sympatiser?

Steady on, im pretty sure he is just guessing what some people might think.

LookBehindYou

If they went "missing", who would miss them ?

Bottle_of_Smoke

callig wrote: »

Why are you speaking on behalf of dissidents? Are you a terrorist sympatiser?

This is the politics forum, not after hours crossed with the daily mail. Intellectual discussion and reasoning expected. Why didn't you bother respnding to the rest of that post?

Lookbehindyou wrote:

If they went "missing", who would miss them ?

Family, friends, aquaintences. Most of these wouldn't know the members were part of the paramilitaries, probably wouldn't believe the security forces. And NI's a small place.

callig

LookBehindYou wrote: »

If they went "missing", who would miss them ?

They don't have the support of the community, they will not be missed. EOS

What some people here can't seem to grasp is that being able to live in peace is of far greater importance to the community than the violent agenda of dissidents.

Jaap

DoireNod wrote: »

So you believe in the principle of an eye for an eye? You agree with killing people?

So you call the dissidents who tried to kill the poor police officer on Friday "people"? I would call them sick animals who are in need of putting down!
Dissidents have no issues with killing innocent people...why should society have issues killing murderers like them?
Once again the innocent are made to feel bad for thinking of awful things that could be done to murderers!:)

DoireNod

Jaap wrote: »

So you call the dissidents who tried to kill the poor police officer on Friday "people"? I would call them sick animals who are in need of putting down!

I would call them people. Let's not forget that people are capable of committing terrible deeds and are much more destructive than animals.

Dissidents have no issues with killing innocent people...why should society have issues killing murderers like them?

It would make society hypocritical: Condemning the killing of people while toting a gun and pointing it at those who disagree. Do you see the point?

Once again the innocent are made to feel bad for thinking of awful things that could be done to murderers!:)

If you feel bad, that's your problem I'm afraid. I'm simply asking questions of your desire to effectively murder would-be murderers.


To suggest that the death penalty should only be applied to dissident groups is absurd.

callig

Dissidents are of no value to society, they don't respond to dialogue, they have no respect for our desire for peace, mindless violence is all they have to offer. The death penalty is the only suitable reply for them.

Prayers were said at Sunday masses for the seriously ill PSNI officer.

His parish priest, Fr Con Boyle said the policeman was an accepted local figure.

He said: "Peadar is a very friendly, open person and would be well enough known in the Randalstown area.

"His enthusiasm for Gaelic games has been commented on already by the media. He is a practicing Catholic and would have been in our church for mass regularly. In fact he and his wife both attended mass here at St MacNissi's Church last Tuesday evening, the Vigil of the Feast of the Epiphany."

Fr Boyle said the local community was "distressed" at the attack.
"The community here is very much shocked. People struggle to take in that this has happened. We had hoped that we had moved well beyond such an atrocity.

http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/Doctors-battle-to-save-officers.5970988.jp

Bottle_of_Smoke

callig wrote: »

Dissidents are of no value to society, they don't respond to dialogue, they have no respect for our desire for peace, mindless violence is all they have to offer. The death penalty is the only suitable reply for them.



http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/Doctors-battle-to-save-officers.5970988.jp

Right, just repeating yourself. Northern Ireland isn't just chirpy voices, the giants causeway and the ballymena shopping centre.

There's still a divided population and thats not going to change any time soon.

What you're suggesting just doesn't work in democratic countries. There'd be protests, belief in false convictions and martyrdom.

They don't have the support of the community, they will not be missed. EOS

They must have some support in the community. They wouldn't have gotten a 400lb bomb to belfast police headquarters otherwise or been able to carry out other attacks. I get the impression there's a lot more support than the media/politicians are letting on.

What some people here can't seem to grasp is that being able to live in peace is of far greater importance to the community than the violent agenda of dissidents.

Then why would you attempt to radicalize the nationalist community by executing people. You're not thinking this through at all.

DoireNod

callig wrote: »

Dissidents are of no value to society, they don't respond to dialogue, they have no respect for our desire for peace, mindless violence is all they have to offer. The death penalty is the only suitable reply for them.

There are plenty of dissidents (basically those who oppose the route Sinn Féin have taken) who don't engage in violence and such like, so mindless violence isn't all they have to offer and as much as I may oppose the attacks on cops and their families, the death penalty clearly isn't the only suitable reply and certainly, as has been pointed out before in this thread, it could possibly have an adverse effect.

Jaap

DoireNod wrote: »

I would call them people. Let's not forget that people are capable of committing terrible deeds and are much more destructive than animals.
It would make society hypocritical: Condemning the killing of people while toting a gun and pointing it at those who disagree. Do you see the point?
If you feel bad, that's your problem I'm afraid. I'm simply asking questions of your desire to effectively murder would-be murderers.

To suggest that the death penalty should only be applied to dissident groups is absurd.

You can call dissidents people all you like..."people" if you want to...many would diagree with you!

Society would not be pointing the gun at those who disagree...it would be pointing it at people who easily take the life of innocent humans and celebrate murder...the muder of innocent people out to do a decent day's work...innocent people who do not cover their faces with masks and disappear in to the darkness to hide!

I don't personally feel that bad...more sad/baffled in the fact that some people like your good self seem to more concerned about the rights of the perpetrator of the crime than the victim...or the good to society to have these evil animals removed!

callig

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

There's still a divided population and thats not going to change any time soon.

Who do you think is more likely to help bridge the divide?

People like Peadar Heffron or terrorists?

Bottle_of_Smoke

Peadar. What exactly are you getting at?