Depression and firearms license in Ireland

lykoris

Good Afternoon Gentlemen,

Given the sensitivity of the issue and unknown to the individual in question I'd like to ask the following question - as I'm entirely clueless in relation to the ROI application procedures for a firearms license.

I realize a definitive answer cannot be gleamed and the particular circumstances in each case can differ but given the following information was is the probability of obtaining a firearms license to target shoot?

If the individual suffered from depression for a large portion of his life
no history whatsoever of violence nor any criminal record
60-65 age group
A rudimentary understanding of firearms given his father was an avid target shooter.
Lived in Ireland all his life.
Reason for application - as a hobby given retirement & surplus time.

I don't know if you need references like the UK FAC where 2 written references are required...if so I'm sure the family doctor for 20+ years could do so.

What are the chances of getting a firearms license for two bolt action rifles (a .22lr and .223rem) and maybe an o/u shotgun later?

do you have to do x months with a rimfire first ?

Many thanks for taking the time to read and I appreciate any observations/help/advice

Cheers

Sparks

Depends on two things - (a) what his stated-on-the-application-form doctor thinks about depression as a precluding condition to owning firearms, and (b) what he thinks about it (as he's asked to tick a box saying whether or not he's ever had a mental heath issue that would affect his suitability to own firearms.

Frankly though, it's a bit of a red herring. We say 'mental health' in this country and it's on a par with saying 'cancer' - everything is though to be the absolute worst case scenario. With a hefty chunk of social stigmata added in for good measure. The reality is a lot more complex.

dCorbus

AFAIK Whether or not a past history of depression might influence the licencing would be, as sparks says, very much dependent on the actual personal history and medical / psychological circumstances of the applicant.

In addition to the 2 personal referees required on the FCA1 form, the applicant must also provide details of the following:

Details of General Medical Practitioner / Doctor

and

Details of other Medical Professionals (if any)

and answer yes or no to the following question:

Do you suffer from, or have you been diagnosed or treated for any medical condition (physical / mental) that may affect your ability to possess, carry or use firearms, safely?

According to the form and the guidelines, supplying this medical / psychological information (where applicable) " does not necessarily mean your application will be refused but it may lead to further enquiries" (To quote the form).

As far I understand the situation, it will be up to the applicants "other medical professionals" to advise on the suitability or otherwise of the applicant to possess a licenced firearm.

Hope that's of some help.

Sorry, forgot to add:

do you have to do x months with a rimfire first ?

In my experience, no. You just need to show what they call "Good Reason".

lykoris

Thanks for the input. I don't like the wording of the question in Section 2.2 or perhaps it is my interpretation that is incorrect.

"
Do you suffer from, or have you been diagnosed or treated for any medical condition (physical / mental) that may affect your ability to possess, carry or use firearms, safely? Yes No If “Yes” please provide full details.

Note: Answering “Yes” in this section, does not necessarily mean your application will be refused but it may lead to further enquiries.

Note: By completing and signing this form you are giving consent to An Garda Síochána to make".

To me this was written by a lawyer. They are asking a subjective question to the applicant and to me it is then at the discretion of the applicant to deem whether or not their 'medical condition' makes them unsafe.

Is there a specific list of medical conditions? Depression comes in various degrees.

If they person answers No but the Garda looking over the form sees a condition of depression he could deem the person untruthful/dishonest in filling out the application form.

To me it is deliberately ambiguous as it's open to interpretation from so many angles. If you answer yes you're openly admitting you have a condition that 'affects your ability to possess,carry or use firearms safely'. If you answer No you could be accused of lying as a history depression could qualify.

In no way shape or form would I consider this person a danger either to the public at large or himself/family/friends.

So in conclusion what is the 'appropriate' way of filling this question out.

I'd appreciate any help/tips/advice.

Cheers

Sparks

I'm not a lawyer or a medical health professional, but my rule of thumb for that section is this: if you can hold a driving licence, you're equally medically safe to hold a firearms licence (and likewise, if you're medically precluded from holding a driving licence, you probably shouldn't be holding a firearms licence either).

lykoris

Thanks for the helps Sparks.

I think given one of the references will be family doctor for the last 25 years it can only work in his favour.

Cheers

Odysseus

I have little to add on this as I'm quite new to hunting. Howevere, I have worked as a psychotherapists for a number of years and have worked with a number of clients who had various disorders and held firearms.

My thoughts on it are as you noted its quite a subjective question, if you had "simple" depresion and where treated for this by your GP I personally can't see why you would answer yes. However, if you depression required you to ungo inpatient treatment, you had a history of self harm or severe suicidal ideation or attempts I think you should answer yes.

The reason I'm stating the above is that most people experence depression at some stage of their life, alot don't recieve treatment for it. So that's just my personal read of your question. Hope that helps a bit.

Mods: I have done my best to be objective here, I'm not giving medical or therapeutic advise so I think I'm ok with posting the above. However, if there is an issue ans you feel it should be deleted [I can't see why] the "fire away":)

Sparks

Seems well-phrased enough to be safe Odysseus.
(Doesn't hurt that I agree with you I suppose )
In the end, if there's any doubt, the call comes down to the treating psychiatrist.

Odysseus

Sparks wrote: »

Seems well-phrased enough to be safe Odysseus.
(Doesn't hurt that I agree with you I suppose )
In the end, if there's any doubt, the call comes down to the treating psychiatrist.

Cheers thanks, I wanted to keep it as generally as possible, as I think it is an issue for a lot of people. The lads I work with sent a guy up to me just before x-mas, [they the staff know I do a bit of hunting, it shows in the lunchs I bring in ] however, this guy was not seeking therapy of me he had his application form with.

Now my main area of work is the addiction field, this guy has being on our methadone clinic for a few years. He was asking me about the medical section. I explained my understanding of it and then all I could tell him was to speak to his GP.

I had him with me for a while he has an o/u and a .22 has hunted for years no criminal convictions and from the inquiries I made is not involved in any. The guy just likes to hunt, but also has a heroin problem which he is recieving treatment for. If they check up on him I wonder what the result will be.

Solidchrome

Odysseus wrote: »

.. but also has a heroin problem which he is recieving treatment for. If they check up on him I wonder what the result will be.

I hate to rain on your parade but I sincerely hope anyone with a heroin addiction problem does not have access to a firearm. Hopefully the new medical questions will be answered honestly and the application turned down.

Sorry if that sounds harsh but that was one scary sentance.

Sparks

On the other hand, look at the immediately preceding sentence:

he has an o/u and a .22 has hunted for years no criminal convictions

In other words, the Gardai are okay with this chap, and have been for years, and have signed off on him.

Odysseus

Solidchrome wrote: »

I hate to rain on your parade but I sincerely hope anyone with a heroin addiction problem does not have access to a firearm. Hopefully the new medical questions will be answered honestly and the application turned down.

Sorry if that sounds harsh but that was one scary sentance.

I'm passing no judgement on it, most of my guys can get anything the want easily enough. I merely stated it as a point in case in relation to this topic. Whilst my job brings me into contact with serious criminals, not all people with addiction issues are criminals. Some hold down very good jobs whilst on methadone treatment.

As I said I was metioning it in relation to the topic at hand, can't see how you would think you raining on my parade though

Edit:
Just to add I know a few treatment programme that have taken groups of addicts off to shot clays in adventure centres.

Solidchrome

Sparks wrote: »

.. the Gardai are okay with this chap, and have been for years, and have signed off on him.

The Gardai have know he was addicted to heroin and still issue him a license? Thats worrying.

Odysseus wrote: »

Just to add I know a few treatment programme that have taken groups of addicts off to shot clays in adventure centres.

Being under supervision while clay shooting is different than allowing a heroin addict to own a firearm.


You cant drive while under the influence so how can someone be safe with a firearm while taking heroin?

Sparks

Solidchrome wrote: »

Being under supervision while clay shooting is different than allowing a heroine addict to own a firearm.

Solid, I think based on that sentence, that maybe you don't quite understand addiction as well as a health professional might. If the treating physician signs off on it, there are few qualified enough to question that.

Odysseus

Sparks wrote: »

Solid, I think based on that sentence, that maybe you don't quite understand addiction as well as a health professional might. If the treating physician signs off on it, there are few qualified enough to question that.

Form my viewpoint its between the treating GP or psychiatrist and the Super. The same can be said in relation to any psychological issue really. That was my only point in giving that example.

Solidchrome

I must admit, I would trust a health professionals' opinion over any one else on this.

Victor

lykoris wrote: »

"Do you suffer from, or have you been diagnosed or treated for any medical condition (physical / mental) that may affect your ability to possess, carry or use firearms, safely? Yes No If “Yes” please provide full details.

Note: Answering “Yes” in this section, does not necessarily mean your application will be refused but it may lead to further enquiries.

Note: By completing and signing this form you are giving consent to An Garda Síochána to make".

To me this was written by a lawyer. They are asking a subjective question to the applicant and to me it is then at the discretion of the applicant to deem whether or not their 'medical condition' makes them unsafe.

In legal terms "may" means possibility. So if someone is prone to uncontrollable outbursts of rage and prone to lashing out or they can't physically hold the gun safely (and say they end up firing in the wrong direction on the second round), then "may" applies. If you have only one leg or are prone to headaches, neither of which should have any affect on you ability to safely use a gun, then "may" doesn't apply.

There are different forms of depression. If it is possible (not probable) the person might harm themselves or others, then the form needs to say "yes".