Mucking a bluff

shanethemofo

Suppose player A 3 barrels.

Player A Bluffs at the pot and Player B calls.

Player A insta-mucks.
Player B demands to see cards as he has "paid to see".
Player A refuses saying that he chooses to muck over going to showdown.

Is player A in the right here? If he mucks prior to player B showing his hand or declaring.

What happens if player A mucks after player B shows down his hand . Is player B entitled to see his cards?

aubreym

player A does not have to show his cards. By mucking his cards, he has given up all rights to claiming the pot. player B should leave it at that, unless he's a nob.

on the other hand, if another player suspects collusion or chip dumping, then he may ask for the cards to be seen, but touchey subject.

i would imagine that once they hit the muck though, they are dead & cannot be shown

last example, if B calls, then he should wait till A shows his hand before revealing his.

Mr check raise

this happened in the Aussie Millions 2007 or something. Some lad tried to bluff Andy Black after he missed a gutshot but black called. your man mucked but Any wanted to see his hand so the dealer obliged. its mainly just bad etiquette imo. you won the pot, just take it in and shur up

Jam-Fly

If you want to see what the bluffer had, technically you are allowed request to see it, however, it is obviously bad etiquette.


The ruling as to whether YOU have to show your hand or not, differs in cash games and tournaments I believe. In cash games, you still have to show your hand at a showdown to claim the pot, whereas in tournaments, once the player mucks, your live hand is enough to win the pot and you don't have to show.
Could someone please verify if this is correct btw?

LTL

Jam-Fly wrote: »

The ruling as to whether YOU have to show your hand or not, differs in cash games and tournaments I believe. In cash games, you still have to show your hand at a showdown to claim the pot, whereas in tournaments, once the player mucks, your live hand is enough to win the pot and you don't have to show.
Could someone please verify if this is correct btw?

Different rule in various clubs and festivals. IMO once player A open mucks he loses his right to see Players B's hand but only my opinion, where as lots of TD's say you have to show a winning hand to claim a pot.

gorrrr72

Mr check raise wrote: »

this happened in the Aussie Millions 2007 or something. Some lad tried to bluff Andy Black after he missed a gutshot but black called. your man mucked but Any wanted to see his hand so the dealer obliged. its mainly just bad etiquette imo. you won the pot, just take it in and shur up

Andy was at the table but he wasn't involved in the hand. He asked to see because he said he hadn't played with this guy and wanted to see what cards he was playing.
The guy was major pixxed off. Don't blame him.

corkie123

u are intiltled to see the players cards even if he mucks them but if u do then they are live again and if u cant beat them he wins .

The Clamper

I THINK THEIR WAS MORE THAN MET THE EYE HERE AS aNDY WOULD KNOW WELL EXACTLY WHAT HE WAS DOING
ITS MORE LIKELY THAT HE WAS DELIBERATELY ATTEMPTING TO PUT THE GUY ON TILT AND HE MAY WELL HAVE KNOWN THE GUYS STYLE

DOESNT MAKE THE PLAY RIGHT, BUT IF YOU HANG AROUND WOTH AMERCANS LONG ENOUGH,,,,,,

I ASKED A YANK ONE TIME
DO YOU NOT THINK THAT YOU WERE AT BEST ANGLE SHOOTING OR MAYBE PLAIN CHEATING AFTER HE DID SOMETHING I WOULD HAVE THOUGHT WAS DESPICABLE BAD ETIQUETTE
HIS ANSWER
ANYTHING GOES IN POKER, THERE ARE NO FRIENDS HERE
ANYTHING THAT GIVES YOU AN EDGE IS OK

I ASKED, DOES THAT INCLUDE CHEATING
HIS ANSWER MAY SHOCK YOU

DAMN RIGHT IT DOES BUDDY, JUST DONT GET CAUGHT ACTUALLY CHEATING AND ITS ALL OK

PITYFUL, BUT GENERALLY THAT SEEMS TO BE THE ANSWER YOU GET FROM YANKEEDOODLES

pkr_ennis

Jam-Fly wrote: »

The ruling as to whether YOU have to show your hand or not, differs in cash games and tournaments I believe. In cash games, you still have to show your hand at a showdown to claim the pot, whereas in tournaments, once the player mucks, your live hand is enough to win the pot and you don't have to show.
Could someone please verify if this is correct btw?

I had it the other way around. In tournament play you have to show b/c of chip dumping where as in cash it could be argued there is no showdown if 1 player mucks.

'I want to see the hand' is a touchy subject and considered an accusation of cheating by many hardened, knowlegable, poker players. You gotta really wanna see that hand or just really wanna tilt someone. This may not tilt your opponent and may make him play harder against you.

bp_me

shanethemofo wrote: »

Suppose player A 3 barrels.

Player A Bluffs at the pot and Player B calls.

Player A insta-mucks.
Player B demands to see cards as he has "paid to see".
Player A refuses saying that he chooses to muck over going to showdown.

By definition the players are at showdown. Player A should expose cards first.

Player B can see the cards. However my understanding is the usual rule is if player B asks to see them then they are once again live and if player A has misread the hand they now have a claim to the pot if tabling the best hand.

'I want to see the hand' is a touchy subject and considered an accusation of cheating

I don't think this really applies when it is two players HU and one player wishes to see the other's cards. It would be a different situation if a player who was dealt into the hand and folded on an earlier street asked to see the hand player a mucked/attempted to muck.

shanethemofo

bp me - Are the players really after getting to showdown though or is it the end of the betting phase?

The fact that player A mucks his hand prior to any cards being turned over would appear to me that the showdown never occured, thus player B should not have the right to see the cards, nor should he need to show his cards. It could be treated as an open fold, as someone could do on the flop/turn/river.
However, i can see reason then that a player must show a hand to claim the pot to avoid chip dumping.

What is the definition of a call? Is a call treated as a claim that your hand is the best hand, therefore seeing the other persons cards is irrelevant? Shouldnt player A then retain a certain right to protecting his information?

Or is a call a charge to see what the other person is holding, forcing player A to show his hand?

Or is it all grey?

And if the arguement for choosing one side over the other is chip dumping prevention, then should players not be initially treated as honest before resorting to accusation? Or should the presumption that someone is always cheating always be there?

bp_me

shanethemofo wrote: »

bp me - Are the players really after getting to showdown though or is it the end of the betting phase?

Once all betting is complete on the river (and there are 2 or more players with live hands once betting is complete) the players have reached showdown.

shanethemofo wrote: »

The fact that player A mucks his hand prior to any cards being turned over would appear to me that the showdown never occured, thus player B should not have the right to see the cards, nor should he need to show his cards. It could be treated as an open fold, as someone could do on the flop/turn/river.
However, i can see reason then that a player must show a hand to claim the pot to avoid chip dumping.

TDA rules state you must show a live hand to claim the pot at showdown. In practice if other players have "insta-mucked" I will award the pot to the player with the remaining live hand and not ask them to show. I have had this discussion with players previously and my own opinion is who else has a live hand to award the pot to?

shanethemofo wrote: »

What is the definition of a call? Is a call treated as a claim that your hand is the best hand, therefore seeing the other persons cards is irrelevant? Shouldnt player A then retain a certain right to protecting his information?

A call is matching (paying) another players bet. It is treated as a call. Nothing else. At it's most basic a call is a player wishing to see another card or wishing to attempt to claim the pot. A call does not automatically imply a player has the best hand (because if they had they are probably raising... though maybe that's a discussion for the theory section). It simply means they want a chance claim the pot and they think they are getting the right price to do so.

Very simply, player A is required to show first. You will often see players try to avoid this and generally players show out of turn because someone believes they have the best hand (I really hate slow rolling... Just throw the cards on their backs and be done with it!)

shanethemofo wrote: »

And if the arguement for choosing one side over the other is chip dumping prevention, then should players not be initially treated as honest before resorting to accusation? Or should the presumption that someone is always cheating always be there?

I don't think I have ever seen chip dumping at a table. It's just not that big of a deal. The main situation you may see this is in a team event, however any I have dealt have used modified rules to prevent chip dumping for as long as is practical.

shanethemofo

Thanks. Excuse my ignorance but is when you say "TDA rules" is that "tournament directors association"?

bp_me

shanethemofo wrote: »

Thanks. Excuse my ignorance but is when you say "TDA rules" is that "tournament directors association"?

Yes. They are the ones I usually refer to. Robert's rules are a little more in depth though and pretty similar.

I should state that anything I posted above is only my own opinion and there is no one ruleset used in Ireland. If in doubt, ask to see the house rules before you sit down to play.

ferdyfish

im shocked that ye are all saying its bad etiquette. you might be calling with an unmade hand yourself just to for information on what he held and bet or not in the previous streets.
if you called you have paid for that info and id see nothing wrong with asking the dealer to show the cards.... however if they are in the muck the dealer mightnt know what 2 cards they were, so is this not bad etequette on player A for throwing them to muck?

bp_me

ferdyfish wrote: »

so is this not bad etequette on player A for throwing them to muck?

Is this not the point I have made above?

Jam-Fly

pkr_ennis wrote: »

I had it the other way around. In tournament play you have to show b/c of chip dumping where as in cash it could be argued there is no showdown if 1 player mucks.

'I want to see the hand' is a touchy subject and considered an accusation of cheating by many hardened, knowlegable, poker players. You gotta really wanna see that hand or just really wanna tilt someone. This may not tilt your opponent and may make him play harder against you.

Yes, sorry I mixed them up, you're right.

ferdyfish wrote: »

im shocked that ye are all saying its bad etiquette. you might be calling with an unmade hand yourself just to for information on what he held and bet or not in the previous streets.
if you called you have paid for that info and id see nothing wrong with asking the dealer to show the cards.... however if they are in the muck the dealer mightnt know what 2 cards they were, so is this not bad etequette on player A for throwing them to muck?

Well if you call on the river just to see what he had (ie you're calling with an unmade hand) and he mucks (meaning you win the pot), then if you ask to see his hand, his hand is live and can claim the pot if it beats your hand (eg. guy 3 barrells with AK on 24599 board, if you have 67, and call on the river 'just to see his hand', and he mucks, be glad he mucked and gifted you the pot, do not request to see his hand).

Basically, there are only three situations a player will muck on the river at a showdown:
1) he sees a better hand than his and mucks to conceed defeat.
2) he open mucks because he has a terrible hand, assumes he is beat and conceeds defeat
3) he sees a hand worse than his and wants to chip dump

so obviously in 1) and 2) it is bad etiquette to ask to see your opps hand coz you obviously have him beat.
3) is the only situation where you should do it and it is sooo rare to see something like that happen is pretty much negligble.


So in a nutshell, bad form to ask to see players mucked cards for strategic purposes, only reason you should do is if you suspect them of cheating (chip dumping)

ferdyfish

i really dont think its in bad taste to ask to see in those situations knowing he mucked rags or was completely floating earlier streets. i still think the caller is entitled to see what rags the other player had for info.
i often open muck myself and remember many a time players asking the dealer to see my cards in tournaments in the macau cork. (and i didnt think anything of them asking.)
anyone else feel the same as me? - besides bp-me.(sorry misread or skipped your first reply bp_me)

Jam-Fly

ferdyfish wrote: »

i really dont think its in bad taste to ask to see in those situations knowing he mucked rags or was completely floating earlier streets. i still think the caller is entitled to see what rags the other player had for info.
i often open muck myself and remember many a time players asking the dealer to see my cards in tournaments in the macau cork. (and i didnt think anything of them asking.)
anyone else feel the same as me? - besides bp-me.(sorry misread or skipped your first reply bp_me)

no, tbh, any experienced poker player that asks to see mucked cards should know it's bad etiquette.

ferdyfish

so because hes conceiding and mucking telling you he complete air or a no pair hand which is all the info you want really making the hero call... but you may want to know what he was calling a raise with pre or whatever the action was be it him betting or calling all the way;
why would you not want this info on what his style is? it could seriously help you at a deep tournament table knowing that hes a maniac calling or betting with crap pre and/or floating, repesenting other streets. i cant see how that is bad etiqette. by mucking hes taking away an edge you may find, and not giving you the info you pot your chips in to see, that to me can be bad etiquette?
the only reason i wouldnt aak to see on showdown after he open mucks is if i knew he was a maniac bluffer and thought asking would embarrass him and stop him from floating or chasing for eg. gutshots again.