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WWE today
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06-01-2010 5:19pm#1well I watched raw for the first time in ages the other night. I saw there was a thread up here of "will those that watched be back?" and in my honest opinion i think those that do come back will only be interested from now up to mania and thats solely down to bret.
Ive been watching wrestling since ive been 5 or 6 and im now 25. ive seen some of the best matches, rivalries, wrestlers, spots, stables and everything else under the WWE roof. I never really watched WCW as it was hard to get over here and even then, it looked like a massive mess and highly uninteresting. I was a massive wrestling nerd too. used to know all of what was going on backstage, used to get my picks right like 95% of the time for PPV's and was 'balls deep' into WWE and pro wrestling in general. stopped watching 4/5 years ago mainly due to the lack of quality and lack of interest I was having... and also because of John Cena. I remember that wrestlemania where HHH faced Cena and cena won. that was a bit of a kick to the groin for my years of service. i still remember brock lesnar schooling him though
good times.
anyhow, after watching Raw the other night, a raw that didnt feature cena, all the main reasons why i stopped watching were there in abundance. first we had the qualifier for the Divas belt... Divas belt? wasnt there already a foxy boxing title? after researching I now see that there is 2 womens belts. utterly pointless and a waste of my time. but then a young up and coming star 'The Miz' comes out... hes awesome, apparantly. he doesnt seem to have much mic skills or funny, just a lot of confidence which isnt bad i suppose. havent seen him wrestle but he looks like 80% of the roster anyway so i can only guess. the roster just seems to have a lot of clones nowadays. Jack Swagger, MVP, Kofi Kingston, The Miz, DiBiase's kid, Codi Rhodes... all these young middling wrestlers with f**k all emotion and little to no catch. and Mark Henry is still going I see. jesus. he couldnt wrestle back in 99, he cant now.
So after a fatal fourway in which Carlito didnt win (one of the few with what it takes) we have MVP as the #1 contender for the US belt. there was no heat, no emotion, no depth and ultimately no interest in that feud despite the miz being at ringside doing an awful job as a commentator. Then we have the current champ come out, seamus. yay hes irish and the champion yay. now that im over that lets analyse it a bit. back in 00/01 this guy would be fighting for the european title and maybe the IC (although benoit, jericho & angle had a feud for that around then and all 3 are way above seamus). he tried cutting a promo which was quite cringe worthy and then we see a cruiserweight crush in which he undersold a shooting star press. um, how does this guy hold the same belt that triple H and the rock feuded over so brilliantly back in the day, not to mention all the other classics? he is a very underwhelming champion and frankly, its kinda hard to believe that he is. it doesnt look or feel right.
then we have a tag title match with 4 multiple time champions. probably the best match of the night which is no surprise and probably a little too short. Jericho is still best as a face and i dont know why they are insisting he be a heel since his return. hes the last of the real wrestlers on the roster. a great performer with brilliant mic skills but horribly underused nowadays... especially considering that we have a bunch of mutes, cringe experts and ppl that are "awesome". Big Show is Big Show... i fear for his health at this stage. but then we come to DX......
Im a big fan of HHH and his work. The only heel that is as good as him I feel was Ric Flair. HHH was the master of screwovers and because of his marriage and connections he is able to generate real heat which is very hard to do nowadays. HBK this decade isnt the same as he was in the 90's. hes always been a bit underwhelming since his comeback. I think he lost it when he went all religious and goody twoshoes. but HHH and HBK are back as DX.. featuring finlays midget. ok....
i remember when DX formed and Bret called HHH and shawn degenerates and so forth. i even remember pre-surgery chyna with her bulldog face. DX was cool back then. even their second incarnation which turned into the mcmahon - helmsley regime where really good and brought so much heat. DX was always about fun and crass humour and screwovers and so forth. they were a younger, better, more realistic nWo. now though they are incredibly plastic and it all reeks of a desperate attempt to sell at least something to old school fans but even still, they are marketed to the under 10s. um, hunter... do you remember when you went around with a sledgehammer? do you remember all the evil, all the screwovers and all the hurt you put on faces not so long ago? where did that guy go? now we have an 'old school' team of faces who dont really seem to do much or add anything to on-going stories. they are just there as a cheap draw.. a cheap draw for the man to hold the highest count of WWE titles in history. for shame.
Now onto Randy Orton. fantastic wrestler, fantastic heel, able to draw so much heat, good gimmick and a proper bad guy. he looks a bit lost nowadays though. he has two of the middling guys with him atm but that looks like its gonna split, which is for the better. orton kinda looks creepy now though.. i suppose that could help given his character. i remember how well they were able to big up faces back in the day. heck, even back in 04 they were good at it. you give the strap to a heel that is so hated and is able to draw real heat (JBL) and you give him that belt for a loooonnng time. when the good guy finally does win, its a massive deal. and John Cena then became THE face for the past 5 years or so. thats kinda how it works. now they are so afraid of cena not having the belt that a heel gets a run of f**K all with it. it cheapens the whole deal and the eventuality is far more obvious that its very difficult for WWE to surprise you. Orton is the only genuine heel on the roster thats able to pull off a title run and make it look deserved. the rivalry between him and cena looked to me to be wasted over those series of matches they had and both wrestlers now kinda dont look as good because of it. thats a rivalry they could have built up for wrestlemania over the course of 7-8 months like they did with the first rock - austin match but wwe didnt, lord knows why.
in summary, there is very little to keep me back as a regular watching WWE. the current crop is as pale as sheamus compared to the stars back at the turn of the century. The Rock, Austin, HHH, Angle, Jericho, Guerrero, Benoit, the Dudleys, The Hardys, E&C.... there was so much depth there, so many good rivalries and a lot to keep you interested. now we have a bunch of clones of each other with jack all charisma and function more like robots instead of egotistical musclebound pro wrestlers. sure, they might be decent in the ring and they might be able to pull off some good moves but in reality, wrestling isnt about that. its about telling a story and bar the very few, no1 in the current rosters is able to do that and if they are, they are underused or given some crap gimmick or story or crap wrestler to fight. I hear good things about TNA but i dont like what they have done with the ring and im sorry, but any non-wwe promotions have always looked pretty cheap in my eyes. it doesnt look like something that id be that interested in despite what wrestlers are currently on their roster.
anyhow, who is going to win between the miz and MVP....12
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i dunno, i remember getting very excited everytime jericho appeared with a mic when he entered. hes missing his long hair like a sore thumb though. seems a bit tubbier too.
i watched a few things since i stopped, not many and not nearly often. the past few wrestlemania cards have been nothing to write home about either. my favorite ppv of the year is coming up though (the rumble) so i might watch that. though it looks to me that cena will be winning that
and seamus will probably drop the title. tbh, there is not one guy on the roster that really deserves winning the rumble and i have no idea how they are going to work it. i presume predictable cena winning that then winning the title at mania...... yawn 0 -
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i dunno, i remember getting very excited everytime jericho appeared with a mic when he entered. hes missing his long hair like a sore thumb though. seems a bit tubbier too.
i watched a few things since i stopped, not many and not nearly often. the past few wrestlemania cards have been nothing to write home about either. my favorite ppv of the year is coming up though (the rumble) so i might watch that. though it looks to me that cena will be winning that and seamus will probably drop the title. tbh, there is not one guy on the roster that really deserves winning the rumble and i have no idea how they are going to work it. i presume predictable cena winning that then winning the title at mania...... yawn
I have a feeling a returning Edge might win it.0 -
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rossie1977 wrote: »entered what, the wwe?? he was a heel then, just like his best work in wcw he was a heel then too
on your previous point
since cena returned at the royal rumble in 2008 (some 720 days ago):
cenas held both titles a combined 175 days (he had the wwe title a total of 70 days)
orton has held the wwe title for 260 days
HHH has held the wwe title for 280 days
orton had a longer run with the belt compared to anyone in 2009, 3 months, he held the belt for 7 full months between october and april of 2008
this isn't something magical and new, heel champs in wwe/f rarely held the main title for any significant length, go back through history and all the lengthy wwf title reigns are mostly faces, bruno, Morales, Backlund, hogan, savage (88), warrior, bret, hbk, austin, nash all faces when they held the strap for sustained periods
the only one off the top of my head who held the flagship title in wwe for a long while was yokozuna
How could you forget this reign of terror ....:(
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Great post man! I enjoyed reading through it. I dunno if I should be surprised or not that even though u've not been watching for 5 years you feel basically the same way I do lol!
A few points :
The mid-carders are really only pushed one at a time in WWE, and Vince doesn't really care for any of the US title hunters. Although Miz is the best he's been I felt he put in a sub-par performance. His stuff bashing John Cena (and Marty Janetty too) was really great.
It's pretty much universal that everyone thinks Jericho is one of the best heels today. His schtick is a bit tired since he's been doing it full-on since the middle of 2008, but his stuff with Shawn Michaels and Rey Mysterio is really one of the shining points in WWE. He didn't have a particularly great performance but I'd urge you to catch some of the aforementioned matches
Sheamus got pushed far too fast, it's WWE and their "push midcarder for a few months" routine. But sure down the line he'll make a much better champion (he's not been booked that great, his promos aren't great either) but the lad has buckets of potential and has the go-ahead from Triple H.
Couldn't agree more with your musings on the oldschool and newschool DX. Although I don't like Triple H ever since his antics in late 2002-2005.
Orton's an awesome talent but he's also a poor heel, if you'll follow me. He's getting cheers when he should be getting boo'ed. He's a popular heel, if that makes sense - a shades of grey thing. But I guess he's supposed to be flat out heel, as being a tweener doesn't really help (he's not facing heels, only faces) ...I'll say that Triple H is able to be a clearly defined heel and face, CM Punk and Jericho are out-and-out heels, and the crowd react accordingly. Maybe it's just a hard thing to do - be simply heel - or more likely, today's booking is slightly "hero" booking of the 80s and slight "anti-hero" booking of the 90s, so the fans react both postively and negatively. Or maybe they just recognise talent...Or maybe secretly Orton wants to be cheered and works it subconsciously into the crowd's psyche.
I agree that there's not enough to bring an old fan back, I'd suggest maybe checking out some ROH or DGUSA, or NJPW... Actually, check out this week's TNA, it's a nostalgia trip! We might be waiting a while before WWE gets a kick up the butt and we get better shows, better storylines and more awesome characters...hopefully not too long 0 -
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entered the ring / arena. sorry, thought that was obvious. he was excellent on the mic then as a face and his most enjoyable stuff in the wwe was as a face.
on cena, its the eventuality of it. HHH having the title is the equivalent to waiting until someone they want to put over is ready or if they have some very good story line worked up. hes a bit of a stopgap champion now and for the past 3/4 years. orton yeah, he had the belt but it was lost/won/lost in a big mess of a story. the point i was making was that of telling a story. when the face finally beats the bad guy and is finally and justifiably on top. i remember backlash in 2000 when the rock beat HHH for the title. it felt as though justice had been done as HHH had held it since around the end of december and had held it before big show as well. the rock had finally beaten the bad guy and the main man of the mcmahon helmsley faction. then it went on and angle made the grade and was added to the mix as well as a returning stone cold, heck even the undertaker returned to add some spice to proceedings.
it was competitive between a lot of talented guys and even if it was lost and won a lot it was unpredictable. now, unpredictability is sheamus winning, which, if we take off our shamrock specs, is wholly undeserved. and we all know its a matter of time before cena wins again. heck, he even designed the current fugly belt. the belt of bret harts era right up until the undisputed one seemed so much more dignified and had so much more honour attached to it.
a big problem attached to this is the brand extension and the two champions. if WWE had the balls there would be a cull and the extension ended. they could do a lot more then with the cream of the talent they have now. it would mean tougher schedules but i personally think that that sort of pressure makes for better wrestlers (and higher death rates ). maybe thats why there is the brand extension? keep the talent healthy. 0 -
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jaykhunter wrote: »Can we nip this in the bud and say we all agree that WWE would be better if there was only one show per week? It aggravates me to think that we've spent maybe 6 years or more giving out about the brand split - it's here to stay - as long as it's financially viable - which is for the foreseeable future. WWE haven't given a **** about their product since WCW and ECW died in 2001. They only care about money - but not before carrying old grudges and making sure the least amount of wrestlers get elevated to the main event. With Vince, it's all about the money (and making a mediocre product).
He's making a profit of 40-50 million with this schlock - not too far off Attitude Era profits, so I can't really blame him for not wanting to change. And the biggest part is that it'll never change, so I just want to get past it. Just like Triple H's Reign of Terror :pac::pac::pac:
If the brand split ended it would just mean Hunter, Cena, and all Vince's choosen few on EVERY show, at least with the different rosters we get to see Punk, Sheamus and other guys pop up in the main event.
Has the poster who started this thread watched SD? I personally this year have found the show to be very entertaining, fresh and sensibly booked. 0 -
If the brand split ended it would just mean Hunter, Cena, and all Vince's choosen few on EVERY show, at least with the different rosters we get to see Punk, Sheamus and other guys pop up in the main event.
It's a fair point, but competition to get on TV would be much fiercer (for the non-regulars) so the show would benefit no end. I used to think the brand split would be great for that reason, but honestly having an extra two hours of wrestling to watch hasn't made me enjoy wrestling more, rather the opposite. People like Punk and Sheamus would still make the show, there just wouldn't be as much "fat" that could be trimmed on the show, or the roster. Even with one roster on two shows (2000-2002) the storylines moved a bit too fast for me (eg the nWo storyline was really powered on through
)
I think having one show would've forced Tripper and Cena to make new stars and we'd all be better off IMO. In either case I watch only one of RAW or SD for the majority of SD's lifespan.0 -
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sorry jazzy but no, HHH is no stop gap champion, to even consider such a thing is funny, next you will be telling me HHH doesn't book the show
of course we know cena will get the title back (similiar to how we knew hogan would beat earthquake once he returned or bret would beat yoko next time they got it on), but so will batista, so will orton, so will HHH, he will headline the next 20 manias and win 40 titles0 -
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I dont agree with the one show argument. How could you possibly add Taker,Batista,Jericho,Mysterio,Edge and the rest to Raw and run a decent show? People moan the matches are too short allready. How could anyone possibly break into main event status?
Cheers I'd imagine that the same old main eventers can't always fight over the belt/in the main event - so they'd be forced to go into feuds with new talent. Having too many main eventers in a single show is not a bad idea - it just means you have a lot of fantastic talent on the show - and only the best make it onto the show, and everyone constantly has to prove they're worthy of being on the show with great performances. It means that your opening and mid-card acts are also strong, so the fans really benefit. It also means that sometimes people wouldn't be used that week, which extends the character's lifespan and gives wrestlers a break
I'd imagine it'd be something like the mid-late 80s where across the board, the show was bursting with talented individuals, and some excellent talents don't get the world title/main event. Is that such a shame? It's because the title means so much, and there's too much talent, (and Hogan's being Hogan) that they didn't get a run. We still win out because they still wrestle great and cut great promos (thinking about the Million Dollar Man here). I know MDM deserved a title run (in my eyes) but we still got to see him do what he does best. So it's not a bad thing. It's because the WWF title is whored out today (17 WWE/World changes this year!) the belt means nothing and we become bitter than such amazing talents (like MDM) never got to hold the belt.
Looking at RAW and SmackDown over the last 5 years, I can't say straight-faced that many have benefited from the 2 shows - sure main eventers made since 2003 are Cena, Batista, Orton, Edge, Punk, Hardy...JBL....Jericho (altho he won it in 2001)...that's not that many new main-eventers, and surely they'd have all gotten a run somewhere if there was only one brand. Tripper/Orton still played second-fiddle to Punk/Hardy post-Mania and i'm sure that'd still be the case if there was only one show.
Anyway hope i've not gotten tangled up and that makes some sort of sense! It's all for naught as WWE will never undo the Brand Split...They'll just keep moving SmackDown's TV station every year 0 -
Ultimate Chin wrote: »JBL held it for longer iirc.10 months I think
to quote paul heyman, the only reason jbl was champion was because HHH didn't want to work thursday nights
during JBLs run HHH was the main champ0
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