Worth upgrading?

Paul Kiernan

I have a Dawes Giro 200 (see scathing review here) 2nd bike which I had intended to just use for short runs to pub and shops. However, I'm now thinking of using it on longer spins when conditions are wet and dirty as I don't want my Planet-X getting tatty!

The upgrades I'm thinking of are:

Brakes: These are poor and could be replaced by these
Fork: Thinking of something like this
Groupset: This works well but maybe get something cheap on Ebay with STI shifters
Wheels: Maybe secondhand Aksiums or my Planet-X B's which I could upgrade.

Am I just throwing good money after bad? Should I just get a 3rd bike for winter use?

I also plan on doing some continental touring so need to lug panniers around. This would be mostly on the flat as my wife and kids don't share my love of hills!

IM0

my kenisis racelight tk is a great all rounder, think audax character. Very versatile
can take full SKS mudguards, has option of fitting a rear carrier with no messin with clip/strap ons, comfy on long rides, and pretty nippy and responsive to boot. And clearance for much wider tyres than most racers

frame/fork about €350 and can build it up as you want or go for their own build.

Great bike

blorg

I wouldn't put a lot of money into it. You could spend a fair bit on upgrades and not really increase its value when you try to sell it. The lack of STIs and the weight are still going to be issues even if you stick on better brakes and fork. Groupset and wheels you are looking at lots of money.

Sell it as is and you might get €200-250 sort of region.

Quigs Snr

I think you should sell it. Once the casual tri folks come out of hibernation in spring these kind of bikes get swiped up quickly, especially by people just starting out.

Upgrading this brings to mind the saying... you can't polish a turd (but you can roll it in glitter) Seriously, I think you would just be throwing your money away and for the price of the upgrade you could get a superior machine secondhand.

Paul Kiernan

Thanks for the info. Looks like I need another bike:)

I may upgrade the brakes anyway as it's relatively cheap and will make it a lot safer. I can then keep it as a hack or sell it, hopefully sell it!

The Kinesis Tk sounds like just what I need, gets good review on Bikeradar and can be used as winter bike, commuter or tourer, which ticks all the boxes for me.

Lumen

Paul Kiernan wrote: »

The Kinesis Tk sounds like just what I need, gets good review on Bikeradar and can be used as winter bike, commuter or tourer, which ticks all the boxes for me.

The TK is a nice bike. I owned one for a while. The headtube is quite short though, which is either wonderful or wierd for that sort of bike, depending on your personal preference.

Paul Kiernan

The TK is a nice bike. I owned one for a while.

Thanks, Lumen. I see your first ever post on this forum was when you got that bike!

The headtube is quite short though, which is either wonderful or wierd for that sort of bike, depending on your personal preference.

This does worry me a bit, as I'm not as bendy as I used to be, and like quite an upright position, especially for touring. I suppose I could just use a lot of spacers?

Also the Tk is about £125 dearer than the T, and is only about 160g lighter (in my size). Wouldn't I be as well just getting the T?

Lumen

Paul Kiernan wrote: »

I'm not as bendy as I used to be, and like quite an upright position, especially for touring. I suppose I could just use a lot of spacers?

Also the Tk is about £125 dearer than the T, and is only about 160g lighter (in my size). Wouldn't I be as well just getting the T?

You might consider a more toury geometry, as found on something like the Kinesis Gran Fondo.

Ouch, that price is a bit steep!

Kinesis paint jobs are a bit marmite-y.

blorg

Lumen wrote: »

Kinesis paint jobs are a bit marmite-y.

2010 ones are pretty good I think

blorg

Lumen wrote: »

You might consider a more toury geometry, as found on something like the Kinesis Gran Fondo.

Ouch, that price is a bit steep!

Worth considering, for those prices they are not really comparable to what you have now... you could get a Planet X for less I use one for my winter bike myself.

Paul Kiernan

The Gran Fondo sounds great, I especially like the sound of the carbonstrut seatstays, but at €800 for the frameset it's a bit pricey for me.

I'm thinking about a Planet-X, but it's the Kaffenback not the SL Pro Carbon. Can't see how I'd get panniers onto a SL Pro, though I do remember you, Blorg, posting a picture of a road bike with a massive seatpost bag, atop some pyrenean(alpine?) col which had me drooling at the mouth. Realistically, it should be possible to tour with little more than a credit card, a toothbrush and one change of clothes but somehow I always have to carry the kitchen sink.

blorg

If you are looking for a complete bike and want a tourer Edinburgh Bicycle Coop probably have the best deals. Their Revolution range of tourers and audax bikes get very good reviews.

This is only £499 with all the bits included, good deal I reckon:

Paul Kiernan

I'm sorry, Blorg, that looks awful! I'm a sucker for aesthetics. Compare with the Kinesis racelight T

blorg

Paul Kiernan wrote: »

I'm sorry, Blorg, that looks awful! I'm a sucker for aesthetics.

Not sure how you ended up with the Dawes so

No, I would go for the Kinesis above it myself* but you are looking at £899 without rack and mudguards for the cheapest model vs £499 with rack and mudguards on the Edinburgh Bicycle. Basically one is half the price of the other. This is for a winter trainer/hack, right?

*Indeed, I have one:

Lumen

Paul, I think you need to disclose your budget. We can't properly bankrupt you without some sort of target to overshoot. :pac:

Enigma do some lovely stuff. A few months ago I was thinking of getting a custom Esprit with rack mounts and mudguard clearance, but I bottled it.

Paul Kiernan

Not sure how you ended up with the Dawes so

It was cheap:p

but you are looking at £899

Perhaps I'm being unrealistic but I'd some idea I'd pick up cheap parts on Ebay or Boards adverts and just buy some new parts. I'd hoped to do the whole thing for €500-600.

blorg

Paul Kiernan wrote: »

It was cheap:p

Perhaps I'm being unrealistic but I'd some idea I'd pick up cheap parts on Ebay or Boards adverts and just buy some new parts. I'd hoped to do the whole thing for €500-600.

It's unlikely.

From CRC's prices, which tend to be among the cheapest:

225 frame
53 for the alloy fork or 114 for the carbon
25 for a headset

Leaves you with £303 or £364 depending on fork choice- €337-405. I am guessing you want the carbon given you don't like the current fork on the Dawes. Doesn't leave you with a lot of money for groupset, wheels and finishing kit.

You might get lucky with groupset/wheels/finishing kit (I certainly did with my Kinesis) but typical might be €250 for a groupset, €100 for wheels, €25 for tyres+tubes, €100-125 for the finishing kit, €25 for pedals. Which is €500-525 extra. Factor in some money for the build unless you have all the tools and can do it yourself. €70 ballpark. Few quid more may be necessary for a new chain, one taken off another bike may well not fit.

Will you be lucky enough to get a group with the right crank length? Or finishing kit with the right stem length? These were two things I had to change with mine- the RD also needed to be replaced as it was bent (still got a good deal mind.) Some idiot had assembled the rear tyre wrong and so I needed a new tube while I was at it.

I would be thinking you would get something with the likes of a 105 groupset for that mind, probably a higher spec than the complete Kinesis at £899.

You generally get this stuff cheaper buying all together.

Paul Kiernan

Enigma do some lovely stuff. A few months ago I was thinking of getting a custom Esprit with rack mounts and mudguard clearance, but I bottled it.

Their Etape slugged it out with the Racelight T in this RCUK test The titanium sounds great but it's soooo pricey.

@Blorg, your figures come to a rather sobering €1000 or so. I can get a Kaffenback with Ultegra 10 for about €800 but even that's over budget. I was looking at this and this on Ebay but they'll probably sell for much, much more! But is it better to face reality now or buy the frame and then face it?

IM0

€330 left (after the racelight T2 10 frame and fork/headset)...so wheels 100, GS 100 (Sora), and other parts as you collect them, maybe 100-150.

Take the plunge get the frame'set' , and build up piece by piece , whatever happens your going to blow your budget so..

Bikerbhoy

Quigs Snr wrote: »

Upgrading this brings to mind the saying... you can't polish a turd (but you can roll it in glitter)

Havent heard that before .... Very Good .....I like it :D

Golfanatic

heres an idea for Fork
Headset

Golfanatic

its an integrated headset right thats a good website bythe way
you might be able to get it for 600 as theres wheels fulcrum racing 7 for 175 i think less on crc crankset for 32-fsa bars 10.84 crc-fsa i think. i looked around for my fixie so i kow alot of prices:)

blorg

Buying a frame is a very good way of deluding yourself now into going well over your budget to get something your heart wants, once you have the frame you will have to build it up...

You know how much the frame costs and where to get it; as such (head speaking) you would probably be better off buying the groupset first. Get a good deal on the groupset and then buy the frame and other bits. Even then buying off eBay you don't really know what sort of nick the groupset will be in.

I bought my group, finishing kit and wheels in one lot for a very good price and I also knew the previous owner and that they should be in good condition. Even then I did need to replace some stuff.

Also don't underestimate though how much finishing kit bits there are:

saddle
seatpost
seat clamp
bottom bracket cable guide
bars
bar tape
stem
spacers
cable set

These bits are not all very expensive but they are not free either, I probably underestimated, if buying entry level parts new you would be looking at €200 or more there. You can buy them second hand as they come up either for around the €125 mark but could take a while and to be honest you probably wouldn't save THAT much, there are simply a lot of bits! If you could get them all together that would be best.

You will generally get a complete bike cheaper than a frame and the components. And it will be new and work perfectly.

Can you build the bike yourself?

You are looking at potentially spending more on your winter bike than you did on your summer bike. And by the time you have all the bits and have it together it will not be winter any more! Given that maybe look out for a complete bike on offer, or someone selling their own winter bike at the end of the winter (only a couple of months left now.)

blorg

Golfanatic wrote: »

heres an idea for Fork
Headset

Or from the same people just buy this entire bike for £550 or this one for £560 with clearance for wider tyres (no harm having the option given that you already have a race bike with narrow ones.)

Dolans have a very good reputation too.

IM0

blorg wrote: »

Or from the same people just buy this entire bike for £550 or this one for £560 with clearance for wider tyres (no harm having the option given that you already have a race bike with narrow ones.)

Dolans have a very good reputation too.

that looks like damn good value and pretty much on budget for him
Kinesis R2 bike = £900, the Dolan (pretty much the same) £550!! bargain :eek:

blorg

me@ucd wrote: »

that looks like damn good value and pretty much on budget for him
Kinesis R2 bike = £900, the Dolan (pretty much the same) £550!! bargain :eek:

I do think the Kinesis looks better. But buying a winter bike in white would not be a great idea, it won't look better for long. They get really filthy looking much quicker than a black bike.

I think the OP needs to decide on budget and whether they are just going to throw it out the window and get what they want... buying the frame though before you have the components is IMO just deluding yourself as to the eventual cost.

It is very difficult to build up a bike with decent modern components cheaply. IMO.

Lumen

blorg wrote: »

buying the frame though before you have the components is IMO just deluding yourself as to the eventual cost

Very true.

Paul Kiernan

Thanks for all your replies.

Can you build the bike yourself?

Probably! Mr. Skeffington built my Planet-X (extremely well) after I ran into difficulty but I watched him carefully and now have most of the tools and know-how to give it a bash.

That Italian-Solutions site looks very good, thanks Golfanatic. The Preffisio looks like a steal. Dolan have a good name for frames, the Alpina fork sounds good, Sora so-so, wheels questionable, finishing kit excellent at that price. I'd love to read a review of it from somewhere if anyone has seen one? Also has anyone any opinions on the wheels (Omega rims, Shimano 32 hole hubs)?

My Dawes weighs 12.5 kg against my Planet-X's 7.5kg. I don't want to buy a new bike and find it's as heavy as the Dawes! Can't find Preffisio weight anywhere but would guess 10-11kg?

My heart still leans towards the Kinesis but as you say, Blorg, I'm taking a lot of chances with secondhand, worn, incompatible kit! And I'd probably be finished around Easter!

Paul Kiernan

blorg wrote: »

But buying a winter bike in white would not be a great idea, it won't look better for long. They get really filthy looking much quicker than a black bike.

PS I read recently that it's a good idea having a white winter bike because it's easy to see the dirt when you're cleaning it:) Mind you, not a great argument when you arrive home late and tired on a nasty January evening.

Golfanatic

Fulcrum racing 7 are good wheels and are fairly cheap!

Golfanatic

oh sorry i thought you were buying new wheels not looking from opinions sorry

Paul Kiernan

Golfanatic wrote: »

oh sorry i thought you were buying new wheels not looking from opinions sorry

Well, in fairness, I will be needing wheels too!

Currently going through Blorgs list and scouring websites trying to price everything down to the last bolt. A little devil on one shoulder keeps nudging me and saying "damn the cost, get a nice titanium frame and build up a great bike" but I'm managing to keep him under control (for now!).

short circuit

Hi Paul ... in the same boat and trying to price stuff ... any chance you could post up your list and pricing. Thinking of going with bar end or down tube shifters to keep the cost down

Can anyone think of negatives with that ... the bike is not going to be raced ... so unable to think of downsides .. and an immediate 100 quid in savings of STIs even with Tiagra level shifters. Also opens up Canti/v-brake specific brake options which would stop you well .. rather than STI - canti/v-brake compromise.

Paul Kiernan

List of everything required is (thanks, Blorg) further up this thread. Finishing kit stuff is very much a matter of personal choice. I'm really just looking at CRC, PBK, Wiggle, Ribble, Italian-Solutions and Planet-X and trying to find good value (read cheap) stuff.

I have done a lot of searching for groupsets and wrt your proposal to use bar-end or downtube shifters you might be interested that Ribble do a full Sora groupset for £180, basic Campy £210, a Tiagra for £260, cheapest 105 I could find was £350 on Ebay (no options) or £385 from our own Cyclesuperstore. But if you're going to spend that much then you have to consider Ultegra 6600 from CRC for £450!

I'm looking at some Used stuff on Ebay too but it's really dodgy buying mechanical stuff that way as the seller is probably getting rid of it for a very good reason.

What are you doing for frame and forks?

short circuit

I am trying to use some of the stuff I have lying around .. which makes buying a full groupset a bit of an overkill .. and that is where buying the shifters would convince me to buy a groupset which would convince me to get a better groupset ... and soon we are talking big money ...

Paul Kiernan wrote: »

List of everything required is (thanks, Blorg) further up this thread. Finishing kit stuff is very much a matter of personal choice. I'm really just looking at CRC, PBK, Wiggle, Ribble, Italian-Solutions and Planet-X and trying to find good value (read cheap) stuff.

I have done a lot of searching for groupsets and wrt your proposal to use bar-end or downtube shifters you might be interested that Ribble do a full Sora groupset for £180, basic Campy £210, a Tiagra for £260, cheapest 105 I could find was £350 on Ebay (no options) or £385 from our own Cyclesuperstore. But if you're going to spend that much then you have to consider Ultegra 6600 from CRC for £450!

I'm looking at some Used stuff on Ebay too but it's really dodgy buying mechanical stuff that way as the seller is probably getting rid of it for a very good reason.

What are you doing for frame and forks?

blorg

short circuit wrote: »

Hi Paul ... in the same boat and trying to price stuff ... any chance you could post up your list and pricing. Thinking of going with bar end or down tube shifters to keep the cost down

Can anyone think of negatives with that ... the bike is not going to be raced ... so unable to think of downsides .. and an immediate 100 quid in savings of STIs even with Tiagra level shifters. Also opens up Canti/v-brake specific brake options which would stop you well .. rather than STI - canti/v-brake compromise.

On that topic I have my Mini-Vs almost sold to you now (!) but must say that full size-Vs with these specific brake levers are a bit better if you don't need STI levers.

STIs are an absolute must for racing but not sure otherwise... I would certainly want them in general but maybe not on a winter bike. I cycle fixed enough that a bit of an effort changing gear might not be the end of the world.

short circuit

Yes ... I am still taking those Mini-Vs off you ...

But the option below of having those brake levers + barend/downtube shifters means :-
1. I can change/upgrade brakes later
2. Frees me to chose 8/9/10 speed cassettes without any future expense.

And even Duraace/Ultegra 9/10 speed indexed shifters are only 60/70 euro

Any downsides.

blorg wrote: »

On that topic I have my Mini-Vs almost sold to you now (!) but must say that full size-Vs with these specific brake levers are a bit better if you don't need STI levers.

STIs are an absolute must for racing but not sure otherwise... I would certainly want them in general but maybe not on a winter bike. I cycle fixed enough that a bit of an effort changing gear might not be the end of the world.