China executes British drug smuggler.

aurelius79

Two years after his arrest for carrying 4 kilos of heroin through Urumqi Airport, 53 year old Akmal Shaikh is executed by means of lethal injection.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/asiapcf/12/28/china.britain.smuggler/index.html

This can't be too fair can it? Ok, he got busted carrying drugs through China, it's not like he killed anyone. Yes, the "mental illness" thing is bogus but the Chinese government killed the guy! For smuggling!

steveone

that's their law.
I'd be critical of the chinese for a number of reasons but i do admire them for sticking to their principles under heavy international scrutiny.

ask the parents of heroin victims about human rights.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Liam Byrne

As I've pointed out in another thread

1) The law/punishment existed
2) He broke the law / committed the crime
3) He was punished accordingly

100% fair

aurelius79

steveone wrote: »

that's their law.
I'd be critical of the chinese for a number of reasons but i do admire them for sticking to their principles under heavy international scrutiny.

ask the parents of heroin victims about human rights.

My point wasn't that they carried out a sentence on a prisoner, my point is that they killed a man for smuggling 4 kilos of heroin. That's 4 sugar bags. He wasn't driving a lorry with 500 kilos in the back. The law of the land is an eye for an eye. The Chinese just took an eye for a strand of hair.

As far as heroin "victims", they are adults. Their parents don't come into it. People make a conscious decision to take heroin. If they become so addicted that they die from it, then they have essentially committed suicide.

Overheal

He was in a PvP zone. A damned fool for not swapping out his PvE gear. If you get me.

aurelius79

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Firstly, the Chinese government executing a man for smuggling 4 kilos of heroin has nothing to do with the Cuban revolution. If you have an opinion on this execution I would love to hear it.

Secondly, I started this thread to get away from that ridiculous debate. If I decide to reply to your comments in that thread then I will do so in that thread.

aurelius79

Overheal wrote: »

He was in a PvP zone. A damned fool for not swapping out his PvE gear. If you get me.

lvl 80 hunter, lvl 80 pally, 80 drood, 70 rogue, 52 priest on the Sha'tar. You?

falan

He should have thought about it when he did it...

I've been out in that part of the world many times. In Thailand the first sign that greets you in the airport goes something like this "Drug smuggling is punishable by long prison sentences and/or death"..

As an ex-smoker of the green stuff i never ever participated whilst out there let alone smuggled..Some people are so stupid!!!

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

aurelius79

falan wrote: »

He should have thought about it when he did it...

The poor guy was a mule. He was offered a lot of money to carry a few packages. The actual smuggler he was working for probably forgot to mention he would be traveling through China where they will literally kill him if he's caught. This guy wasn't a producer, or a manufacturer, or a distributor. He was looking to make some easy money, that's it. Punishment should fit the crime.

aurelius79

falan wrote: »

Some people are so stupid!!!

I agree 100%. Some people are incredibly stupid. So should we kill all stupid people for making stupid mistakes? This guy made a mistake, and now he's dead because of it.

Liam Byrne

aurelius79 wrote: »

As far as heroin "victims", they are adults. Their parents don't come into it. People make a conscious decision to take heroin. If they become so addicted that they die from it, then they have essentially committed suicide.

Let's follow your logic:

As far as a drug smuggler "victim", he was an adult. He made a conscious decision to smuggle heroin, and died from that, so he essentially committed suicide.

/thread

aurelius79

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Let's follow your logic:

As far as a drug smuggler "victim", he was an adult. He made a conscious decision to smuggle heroin, and died from that, so he essentially committed suicide.

/thread

Do you think we should execute drugs offenders (dealers, manufacturers, smugglers) in Ireland? Why or why not? Oh, and "It's not our law to execute people" is not acceptable. Do you think it's acceptable to execute people anywhere for drugs related crimes?

Liam Byrne

aurelius79 wrote: »

Do you think we should execute drugs offenders (dealers, manufacturers, smugglers) in Ireland? Why or why not? Oh, and "It's not our law to execute people" is not acceptable. Do you think it's acceptable to execute people anywhere for drugs related crimes?

Why did you choose to reply with a question, rather than acknowledging that your logic that drug users essentially commit suicide is 100% equivalent to saying that this drug-smuggling scumbag committed suicide ?

Liam Byrne

aurelius79 wrote: »

Do you think we should execute drugs offenders (dealers, manufacturers, smugglers) in Ireland? Why or why not? Oh, and "It's not our law to execute people" is not acceptable. Do you think it's acceptable to execute people anywhere for drugs related crimes?

Yes.

And if people simply abided by the law, there would be no-one executed.

Win-win.

And if it becomes a win for society and a loss for them, that's their choice, not ours.

Republic_of_Now

Apart from the fact that he was diagnosed with bipolar disorder and delusional psychosis and was convinced that the drugs would then make him a popstar in China...
[^^^ the above from the BBC]
... I can't see any reason why China would grant clemency. The chances that they would were blown out of proportion. In a country where the government officials detain and intimidate (even abuse?) people who attempt to speak out against the government I don't think they were ever going to show any mercy, regardless of who he was or where he came from.

baubl

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Let's follow your logic:

As far as a drug smuggler "victim", he was an adult. He made a conscious decision to smuggle heroin, and died from that, so he essentially committed suicide.

/thread

the illness looked bogus
he ran a taxi firm and held down responsible jobs
China has its laws, they are entitled to enforce them.
what they did is a lesson to anyone who might think it is a walk in the park going into their country and breaking the law,

Overheal

Similarly an American girl has been tried and convicted in Italian courts for murder of a British roommate and sexual assault bla bla bla. She's been sentence to 27 years in jail of course though her family maintains the trial was Character Assassination not hard evidence.

http://blog.taragana.com/law/2009/12/04/american-student-amanda-knox-convicted-in-italy-murder-trial-gets-26-year-sentence-18290/

Also as has been criticized in much of the evening news, "The Italians are too strict." and she would have got a fairer trial stateside. But unfortunately, despite involving a Briton and an American (and her boyfriend who may have been Italian) this happened in Italy and falls under Italian Law. Nothing International about it. Not exactly a divorcee fleeing the country with the kids or something. As is the case of one man's fight to get his child extradited from Brazil. And of course in past decades: Elian Gonzalez.

Of course wouldnt it be grea' to be accused of Manslaughter in one country only to be extradited and tried back in Ireland, where some only get a slap on the wrist.

aurelius79 wrote: »

lvl 80 hunter, lvl 80 pally, 80 drood, 70 rogue, 52 priest on the Sha'tar. You?

3 30s and a bank

falan

aurelius79 wrote: »

The poor guy was a mule. He was offered a lot of money to carry a few packages. The actual smuggler he was working for probably forgot to mention he would be traveling through China where they will literally kill him if he's caught. This guy wasn't a producer, or a manufacturer, or a distributor. He was looking to make some easy money, that's it. Punishment should fit the crime.

Im sorry but if somebody asked me to smuggle drugs in ANY country i would say no let alone Ireland where the laws are soft. The risks are far too great and he must surely have had an inkling of the risks!!! He didnt deserve to die but if you do the crime...I mean he surely must have looked up what might happen..As i said im an ex-(very) regular weed smoker..May he rest in peace I feel sorry for his family.

Erin Go Brath

steveone wrote: »

that's their law.
I'd be critical of the chinese for a number of reasons but i do admire them for sticking to their principles under heavy international scrutiny.

ask the parents of heroin victims about human rights.

I agree with this. If you commit a crime in whatever country you are subject to the laws of that country. If he comitted this crime somewhere else his punishment would be according to the laws of that country. Unfortunate to be executed for such a crime some might say and i'd have a certain amount of sympathy but I don't see why he should get special treatment over other people either.

johnnyskeleton

Another thread in Humanities by the way:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055781786

The political aspect from my point of view is whether he got a fair trial in China.

walrusgumble

aurelius79 wrote: »

My point wasn't that they carried out a sentence on a prisoner, my point is that they killed a man for smuggling 4 kilos of heroin. That's 4 sugar bags. He wasn't driving a lorry with 500 kilos in the back. The law of the land is an eye for an eye. The Chinese just took an eye for a strand of hair.

As far as heroin "victims", they are adults. Their parents don't come into it. People make a conscious decision to take heroin. If they become so addicted that they die from it, then they have essentially committed suicide.

i accept the sentiment of what you are saying here. but with regard to the second paragraph; how do you know its all adults taking the drugs. secondly, and i am sure you will find it hard to disagree, its not like people when they take a drug, be it legal or illegal, fully/partially intend to become addicted to the drug, you can't switch on and off all the time

i, along with many many of you, am strongly uneasy with china's human rights record and the death penalty regardless of the crime. but i find it funny though, after looking at many posts in other topics in this site ( i am not criticising the op here btw) that people are that concerned and willing to criticise another country when, according to many posts,letters to papers etc (in fairness i haven't seen contributors here contradicitng themselves) beg or wish we had similar rules to deal with "junkies", "dealers", "rapists", "scumbags" etc.

if the man was from anywhere else bar europe or america, would ye bat an eyelid (sorry for those who are offfended, i feel sorry for this man)

Trouser_Press

As the young people might put it: 'Wow'.

So, it was, like, cool, that, like, this guy was, like, executed, in, like, China?

Yep, true, there were pretty obvious signs that he wasn't the full shilling, but, like, China is way cool, I get a lot of my fake handbags from there, so, like, whatever?!

Yeah, too right, we're, like, way too occupied by weighty stuff, like, you know, skiing equipment and, like, gold, to worry about this, like, loser.

Yeah, **** him. Like. We're, like, way too, like, engrossed, to be thinking of, of, like, small **** like this. Like.

Manic Moran

It is well-known that countries in the far East take their drug laws seriously, with penalties considered draconian by European standards.

The solution is not to complain about the penalty (though I am suprised it was lethal injection, I thought firing squad was the method of choice over there) but to simply not take drugs through in the first place. Seriously, who is going to go to Thailand and put even a single joint of MJ in their bag? You'll be out in twenty years.

NTM

walrusgumble

Trouser_Press wrote: »

As the young people might put it: 'Wow'.

So, it was, like, cool, that, like, this guy was, like, executed, in, like, China?

Yep, true, there were pretty obvious signs that he wasn't the full shilling, but, like, China is way cool, I get a lot of my fake handbags from there, so, like, whatever?!

Yeah, too right, we're, like, way too occupied by weighty stuff, like, you know, skiing equipment and, like, gold, to worry about this, like, loser.

Yeah, **** him. Like. We're, like, way too, like, engrossed, to be thinking of, of, like, small **** like this. Like.

good man/woman you had your laugh. any chances of getting back to the debate or even give an opinion of what you think instead of treating everone like teenagers - no doubt you are well capable of doing so. (from what you are saying i see that you disagree with the execution- fair enough, please point out why)

nesf

Really odd that he'd never been diagnosed with bipolar, being 51.

FlutterinBantam

Yes, must have come on him after the arrest.

Kinda suddenly like.

monosharp

Criminal gets punished, wow.

We don't do that in Ireland.

Nodin

nesf wrote: »

Really odd that he'd never been diagnosed with bipolar, being 51.

Late onset. He was quite successful for most of his life, but in the period of a few years declined until he was homeless. His behaviour during that time indicates severe mental disturbance, including reams of correspondence to public figures (which was dated).

johnnyskeleton

nesf wrote: »

Really odd that he'd never been diagnosed with bipolar, being 51.

Not really; while genetic factors might be the cause, it can often be triggered by things that happen in a person's life. Also, it's quite common for someone to have a mental illness which they successfully manage for a long period of time and then suddenly lose control. Furthermore, it's possible AFAIK to suffer from bipolar early in life, have no symptoms for 20/30 years and then have a relapse later in life.

Mental illnesses can occur at any time to anyone.

However, point taken that it is convenient to have developed bipolar disorder when caught/sentenced.

Nodin

baubl wrote: »

the illness looked bogus
he ran a taxi firm and held down responsible jobs

He did, before he declined.
http://www.reprieve.org.uk/2009_12_18_akmal_shaikh_new_evidence

Het-Field

Liam Byrne wrote: »

As I've pointed out in another thread

1) The law/punishment existed
2) He broke the law / committed the crime
3) He was punished accordingly

100% fair

While i totally agree with your sentiments, it doesnt mean that the sentance handed out fails to fit the crime committed.

Execution is inhumane at the most valid of times.

digme

Maybe the Chinese are sick of British,opium wars anyone?

Boston

There are plenty of culture which believe to lock up a man in a 4 by 6 cell for the rest of his natural life is inhuman.

aurelius79 wrote: »

As far as heroin "victims", they are adults. Their parents don't come into it. People make a conscious decision to take heroin. If they become so addicted that they die from it, then they have essentially committed suicide.

As Liam pointed out, drug smuggling can also be looked at in the same way. You logic has the benefit of ignoring mental illness and youth. You honestly believe only adults are harmed by drug use that only adults die from it.

axer

Het-Field wrote: »

While i totally agree with your sentiments, it doesnt mean that the sentance handed out fails to fit the crime committed.

Execution is inhumane at the most valid of times.

Heroin is an awful drug that ruins so many people's lives and kills so many as a result. It does not just affect those addicted but it causes so many problems in society. How does the punishment not fit the crime?

Rebelheart

aurelius79 wrote: »

Two years after his arrest for carrying 4 kilos of heroin through Urumqi Airport, 53 year old Akmal Shaikh is executed by means of lethal injection.
This can't be too fair can it? Ok, he got busted carrying drugs through China, it's not like he killed anyone. Yes, the "mental illness" thing is bogus but the Chinese government killed the guy! For smuggling!

Tibet, now that's not "fair". Executing a drug dealer is about as fair as executing Bertie Ahern, Seán Fitzpatrick and Michael Fingleton.

digme

Rebelheart wrote: »

Tibet, now that's not "fair". Executing a drug dealer is about as fair as executing Bertie Ahern, Seán Fitzpatrick and Michael Fingleton.

Some people would think it was fair game to execute bertie.

Yve

It really is a horrible thing for the mind to come to terms with - that in another country where you do wrong you are put to death for it.

People make mistakes, big ones. Most people regret them and others dont.

No doubt if this man was a family member of anyone in here, harsh sentiments would be changed and his life would be valued and fought for.

He did wrong and yes he was punished according to the laws of the country.

However as I said earlier people make regretful mistakes and it's human nature to feel sadness and find it difficult to come to terms with.

I recently spent some time doing some work with prisoners. I am not saying that people deserve second chances on their freedom (opt for prison), but I do not think that this man should have been put to death...

Many people will argue about all the people being put to death in other countries and beaten and tortured particularly in the southeast Asian quarters. This particular case was brought to our attention in the media.

I think it is particularly sad

digme

He knew exactly what he was doing.
Why are you feeling sorry for him?I mean the countris residents are better off without consuming 4kg of heroin isn't it?

Boston

Rebelheart wrote: »

Tibet, now that's not "fair". Executing a drug dealer is about as fair as executing Bertie Ahern, Seán Fitzpatrick and Michael Fingleton.

Bertie Ahern was never conficted of anything, and is unlikely to guilty of anything which cost a life. Sean Fitzpatrick and Michael Fingleton would be put to death in China, too right as well.

Yve

digme wrote: »

He knew exactly what he was doing.
Why are you feeling sorry for him?I mean the countris residents are better off without consuming 4kg of heroin isn't it?

Because........... Everyone makes mistakes, this was a fatal one.

Put yourself in his family's shoes. Before a judgement is made I think everyone should be emphatic.

I do think he should have been punished BIG TIME - locked away forever - I just do not think it is right to take someones life .........

And yes other's people's lives would be destroyed by the drugs, and that is their mistake and bad choice and it has a ripple effect of crime , thievary, muggings etc etc...

So these people too, who made bad choices, should they be put to death too?


NO! Lock them up - DO NOT KILL...........

Boston

The whole "everyone makes mistakes line" is abit weak. With that attitude why punish at all. In China Life in prison is life in prison. Is that not a death penalty?

yoshytoshy

It's funny that there is such a big deal made about this.
If half of china was strung out on heroin ,the world as we know it ,wouldn't exist.

Yve

Boston wrote: »

The whole "everyone makes mistakes line" is abit weak. With that attitude why punish at all. In China Life in prison is life in prison. Is that not a death penalty?

'With that attitude why punish at all' - HUH?

People do deserve punishment yes and thats what prison is for.

And Life in prison is not death - one may argue that it may be the equivalent of it - but no it isnt - your basic freedoms may be taken away yes but the person you are is what gives you meaning.

Killing is wrong -

People are punished for killing- locked away for killing

two wrongs do not make a right

Boston

Yve wrote: »

Killing is wrong -

People are punished for killing- locked away for killing

two wrongs do not make a right

Put it on a hallmark card and sent it to someone who buys that pie in the sky idealism.

Yve

Boston wrote: »

Put it on a hallmark card and sent it to someone who buys that pie in the sky idealism.

You did?

digme

Yve wrote: »

'With that attitude why punish at all' - HUH?

People do deserve punishment yes and thats what prison is for.

And Life in prison is not death - one may argue that it may be the equivalent of it - but no it isnt - your basic freedoms may be taken away yes but the person you are is what gives you meaning.

Killing is wrong -

People are punished for killing- locked away for killing

two wrongs do not make a right

Life in prison would be a lot worse than dying,as when your dead,
your not here any more.Jesus your logic is asinine at best.

Liam Byrne

Yve wrote: »

..... your basic freedoms may be taken away yes but the person you are is what gives you meaning.

So if "the person you are" is a scumbag drug-trafficker, what does prison have that makes it "worse" ?

aurelius79

Liam Byrne wrote: »

So if "the person you are" is a scumbag drug-trafficker, what does prison have that makes it "worse" ?

You've never actually met a "scumbag" have you? You probably live in a nice, middle class neighborhood and never actually encounter any of these "scumbags" apart from what you see on the six o'clock news. I'll let you in on a little secret, most of these "scumbags" you refer to are just normal people like you who have gone through extraordinarily difficult situations. I'll tell you about one such person.

The father of my niece and nephew is a heroin addict from Ballyfermot. His father took off when Paul was very young and his mother was severely mentally disturbed. Paul was taken by the Christian brothers after his mother burned down the family home. Suffice to say, by the time he was able to leave the Christian brothers, Paul was a mental wreck.

He ended up back in Ballyfermot and started taking heroin. About 8-10 years later he met my sister and they moved to Spain so Paul could kick his addiction. Six years and two kids later, the relationship fails and Paul ends up back in Ballyfermot. I have no idea where he is now.

So, there's a little story for you to think about. Aren't you lucky you didn't end up like Paul? Oh, and if you don't believe the story I just told you, read up on a guy called Johnny Keenan Jr, brother of Paddy Keenan.

Liam Byrne

aurelius79 wrote: »

You've never actually met a "scumbag" have you? You probably live in a nice, middle class neighborhood and never actually encounter any of these "scumbags" apart from what you see on the six o'clock news. I'll let you in on a little secret, most of these "scumbags" you refer to are just normal people like you who have gone through extraordinarily difficult situations.

Yawn! :rolleyes: You know nothing about me, so stop projecting in an effort to undermine a valid argument.

I do not refer to people as "scumbags" based on their background or situation.

I refer to them as that - and judge people accordingly - based on what crimes they decide to do, not where they're from or how much money they have.

And that applies across the spectrum; travellers, so-called "working-class", politicians, bankers.

All people should be equal. Money, status and location don't differentiate between people; their choices, morals, decisions and actions do.