How to deal with someone who won't pay you

electrogrimey

My band has a gig tomorrow night, and we've just been told that we're not getting paid for it, not even expenses, even though all the DJs and everyone else playing is getting paid. We're one of, if not the, headline band playing on the night so this is ridiculous. I think we played there before when we were starting out, and were happy to just get paid in drinks tokens, but by this stage we've filled out Tripod and the Twisted Pepper among other places, so it's not on. Any advice on what to say to him?

Michael C

electrogrimey wrote: »

My band has a gig tomorrow night, and we've just been told that we're not getting paid for it, not even expenses, even though all the DJs and everyone else playing is getting paid. We're one of, if not the, headline band playing on the night so this is ridiculous. I think we played there before when we were starting out, and were happy to just get paid in drinks tokens, but by this stage we've filled out Tripod and the Twisted Pepper among other places, so it's not on. Any advice on what to say to him?

I can think of 2 words :rolleyes:

rayobrien08

I play in a band in Waterford and we would not do a gig if we were not getting paid for, I'd call him and tell him ye are not playing unless ye get some money for it

RustyBeanTin

still try and get the money but if it still doesnt work, play along and act like you're gonna do it for free and then dont bother showing up

Savman

electrogrimey wrote: »

My band has a gig tomorrow night, and we've just been told that we're not getting paid for it, not even expenses, even though all the DJs and everyone else playing is getting paid. We're one of, if not the, headline band playing on the night so this is ridiculous. I think we played there before when we were starting out, and were happy to just get paid in drinks tokens, but by this stage we've filled out Tripod and the Twisted Pepper among other places, so it's not on. Any advice on what to say to him?

Depends what terms were agreed initially. Standard business etiquette applies.

electrogrimey

When we first got the gig we said we'd only play for at least €300 expenses, it's a band of 15 people so our expenses are pretty high. We assumed this was the deal, but now he's told us the day before the gig that he isn't paying us. We don't really want to miss a New Year's Eve gig, and not playing it won't do much, seeing as the crowd we're bringing won't know we aren't playing and will go regardless...

PMI

Lads are we talking original act or cover act here and then I can possible give ya my 2 cents worth

Savman

electrogrimey wrote: »

We assumed

Ah!

electrogrimey

PMI wrote: »

Lads are we talking original act or cover act here and then I can possible give ya my 2 cents worth

It's a cover act, but not your ordinary wedding band, we do original arrangements of songs like, nothing like the actual songs.

Savman wrote: »

Ah!

We were hardly going to get a contract sealed in blood over a few hundred euro, the only problem we have is with the fact that the other DJs and acts are getting paid and we aren't, even though we're more well known than them. It's not on.

thegrove54

electrogrimey wrote: »

My band has a gig tomorrow night, and we've just been told that we're not getting paid for it, not even expenses, even though all the DJs and everyone else playing is getting paid. We're one of, if not the, headline band playing on the night so this is ridiculous. I think we played there before when we were starting out, and were happy to just get paid in drinks tokens, but by this stage we've filled out Tripod and the Twisted Pepper among other places, so it's not on. Any advice on what to say to him?

As a promoter whos always been screwed over by bands all i have to say is suck it up and take it a gigs a gig its not about money its about publicity. If you only assumed that he was going to pay you that means that he didnt say he was going to.

So my advice is say nothing to him or else you probally wont get future paid gigs off him in coming months and years.

thegrove54

electrogrimey wrote: »

When we first got the gig we said we'd only play for at least €300 expenses, it's a band of 15 people so our expenses are pretty high. We assumed this was the deal, but now he's told us the day before the gig that he isn't paying us. .

As you can see by what you said yourself he never said you were getting paid you just assumed you were being paid. So it was your mistake not his.

Savman

electrogrimey wrote: »

We were hardly going to get a contract sealed in blood over a few hundred euro, the only problem we have is with the fact that the other DJs and acts are getting paid and we aren't, even though we're more well known than them. It's not on.

True as that may be, it's pointless trying to argue this retrospectively, these details need to be clarified whenever the deal is struck.

Welcome to Music Business 101...

gavney

You told him that you wanted a payment of EUR 300 at least. He tells you the day before the gig that he's not paying you - so there's absolutely nothing wrong with just ringing up and saying "hey, we can't afford to do that, can't make it, sorry"

You don't even have to be angry or anything, just say politely that you can't do the gig for nothing. There's nothing he can do, as you don't have a contract.

You'll probably find that a gig on NYE is worth more to him than it is to you anyway, so he'll probably offer something

electrogrimey

gavney wrote: »

You told him that you wanted a payment of EUR 300 at least. He tells you the day before the gig that he's not paying you - so there's absolutely nothing wrong with just ringing up and saying "hey, we can't afford to do that, can't make it, sorry"

You don't even have to be angry or anything, just say politely that you can't do the gig for nothing. There's nothing he can do, as you don't have a contract.

You'll probably find that the gig is worth more to him than it is to you anyway, so he'll probably offer something

We're thinking of that alright, but the problem on New Year's Eve is that the place will be packed out either way, so the place being full without us playing isn't a great way of getting paid gigs off him in future...We were thinking of only playing half a set of something, not not playing anywhere near midnight unless he pays us, and telling him that before we started. Any suggestions?

unclebill98

I can not believe what I am reading.......

You've got booked to do a NYE gig and you said you'll do it for 300euro with a 15 piece band and now he is saying your getting nothing?

Am I reading this right? There is soo much wrong with that...

Not much you can do. Either do the gig or demand some kind of money.

If you wanna work for free you'll never be idle......

Lastly, DJ's are worth more... ;-)


Or do the gig and turn up with 7.5 people and play half the set....

electrogrimey

unclebill98 wrote: »

I can not believe what I am reading.......

You've got booked to do a NYE gig and you said you'll do it for 300euro with a 15 piece band and now he is saying your getting nothing?

Am I reading this right? There is soo much wrong with that...

Not much you can do. Either do the gig or demand some kind of money.

If you wanna work for free you'll never be idle......

Lastly, DJ's are worth more... ;-)

Basically. For all our gigs we demand at least 300 to just cover drink and taxis, for proper gigs we normally get at least €1000. So if we do a free gig we actually lose a few hundred from the band savings to cover costs.

PMI

Ahah....

Right then....

1st off 300 quid on NYE are you on smack? no band worth they're salt is going out for under 1-3G's on a peak night depending on experience and pull.

If your a 15 piece then, the respect you have for yourselves and the musicians in the band is worth more than 300 quid surely.

No Money = No Play.... unless your 17 and are still excited that a gig is coming up and have polished guitars for the last month waiting for that one gig.

Im not having a go at you guys in any way but please listen to someone who knows....

If you go out cheap, you will never command the money you need to make a living.... due to the fact that venues talk among themselves and if your getting 300 and then try and go up to 800 somewhere else your not going to get it... and then 1-2k is never gonna happen.

electrogrimey

PMI wrote: »

Ahah....

Right then....

1st off 300 quid on NYE are you on smack? no band worth they're salt is going out for under 1-3G's on a peak night depending on experience and pull.

If your a 15 piece then, the respect you have for yourselves and the musicians in the band is worth more than 300 quid surely.

No Money = No Play.... unless your 17 and are still excited that a gig is coming up and have polished guitars for the last month waiting for that one gig.

Im not having a go at you guys in any way but please listen to someone who knows....

If you go out cheap, you will never command the money you need to make a living.... due to the fact that venues talk among themselves and if your getting 300 and then try and go up to 800 somewhere else your not going to get it... and then 1-2k is never gonna happen.

You clearly didn't fully read my posts. We demand €300 for expenses alone. For the tripod gigs we're getting €1000-2000 on top of expenses. For smaller gigs like this we expect at least €800. The fact is that this guy has told us the day before the gig that we're not even getting the expenses, how should we deal with it?

unclebill98

electrogrimey wrote: »

how should we deal with it?

Read the 1st lot of responses, ring the guy and sort it.....

Waiting for 300 post on boards is not going to yield the golden answer...







Then come back and tell us what he said.....

therewillbe

electrogrimey wrote: »

When we first got the gig we said we'd only play for at least €300 expenses, it's a band of 15 people so our expenses are pretty high. We assumed this was the deal, but now he's told us the day before the gig that he isn't paying us. We don't really want to miss a New Year's Eve gig, and not playing it won't do much, seeing as the crowd we're bringing won't know we aren't playing and will go regardless...

\


Hey, Are you that band that did a wedding back in July in Leiklip and it was Soul/Funk based:)? Oh YE, DONT TURN UP!:mad:

bogs

In Gods name how did ye manage to get trapped in this situation.Stephens night and New Years Night are two of the biggest nights paywise in the year.Your best bet is to demand your fee tonight face to face,if he refuses just politely tell him hes got 24 hours to get another band in this way ye are not setting him up.What kind of jerk is he anyway?

the_barfly1

Sorry OP, but its a no-brainer.
If the venue wont pay, the band shall not play, simples.

The only other way around it is an agreement (in WRITING!) between yourselves and the venue that they'll give you X amount of gigs at €X over the course of the next 12 months to make it worth your while in the long run.
If they cant do that for you you're better off going on the piss for the night and forgetting about it.

thegrove54

here i agree with yer man if its not in wrighting then yer a idiot for not getting it in wrighting. If i didn't have a written contract saying i was going to pay a band and then they show up demanding money id tell them to **** off.

Savman

thegrove54 wrote: »

here i agree with yer man if its not in wrighting then yer a idiot for not getting it in wrighting.

Oh, the irony!

8k2q1gfcz9s5d4

Its funny when you are under 18, the promoter says to you "No pay, no play!" when you are over 18 you say it to them!

If you are not getting paid, dont play at all, forget about the half set list. You are worried about not getting gigs with this promoter again, why? If you dont get paid for this one, on new years eve, then the who is to say you are getting paid for the next gig? If ye are getting paid over 1K for some gigs, then dont sell yourselves short. word will get around that ye are cheap.

We dont take bookings unless we know what we are getting for it.

yoursaviour1989

There's 15 of ye and 1 of him, take the money or leave him having to forcibly extract 15 boots from his rear-end.

On a more serious note, ye should know exactly what pay you're gettin before you play

thegrove54

Ok everyone saying that the artist is right.... If it is not in written, text, verbal, email or any record of a promoter saying he is going to pay you then its simple you are in the wrong if its not part of the contract for playing the night that you discussed at first then its not going to happen.

NukaCola

electrogrimey wrote: »

When we first got the gig we said we'd only play for at least €300 expenses, it's a band of 15 people so our expenses are pretty high. We assumed this was the deal, but now he's told us the day before the gig that he isn't paying us. We don't really want to miss a New Year's Eve gig, and not playing it won't do much, seeing as the crowd we're bringing won't know we aren't playing and will go regardless...

Just dont play, you cant assume anything about dodgy promoters TBH, some of them would rob the eye out of your head and tell you "its not about the money, its publicity"

All you have to do is look below at the posts this "promoter" has made.

You have to have everything in writing when money is involved or else these guys will tell you exactly the same ****e.

thegrove54 wrote: »

As a promoter whos always been screwed over by bands all i have to say is suck it up and take it a gigs a gig its not about money its about publicity. So my advice is say nothing to him or else you probally wont get future paid gigs off him in coming months and years.

thegrove54 wrote: »

As you can see by what you said yourself he never said you were getting paid you just assumed you were being paid. So it was your mistake not his.

thegrove54 wrote: »

here i agree with yer man if its not in wrighting then yer a idiot for not getting it in wrighting. If i didn't have a written contract saying i was going to pay a band and then they show up demanding money id tell them to **** off.

thegrove54 wrote: »

Ok everyone saying that the artist is right.... If it is not in written, text, verbal, email or any record of a promoter saying he is going to pay you then its simple you are in the wrong if its not part of the contract for playing the night that you discussed at first then its not going to happen.

8k2q1gfcz9s5d4

thegrove54 wrote: »

Ok everyone saying that the artist is right.... If it is not in written, text, verbal, email or any record of a promoter saying he is going to pay you then its simple you are in the wrong if its not part of the contract for playing the night that you discussed at first then its not going to happen.

When dealing with younger bands, that may be the case. But not when dealing with a professional band. band asked for 300, told today they were not getting it => no play, simple as.

thegrove54 wrote:

If i didn't have a written contract saying i was going to pay a band and then they show up demanding money id tell them to **** off.

ROFL

yoursaviour1989

electrogrimey wrote: »

When we first got the gig we said we'd only play for at least €300 expenses.

Seems to me the owner/manager knew the price. He shouldn't have booked them if he knew he wasn't going to pay them

unclebill98

thegrove54 wrote: »

here i agree with yer man if its not in wrighting then yer a idiot for not getting it in wrighting. If i didn't have a written contract saying i was going to pay a band and then they show up demanding money id tell them to **** off.

Wow, can I do gigs for you? You sound like a great person to deal with.

scudzilla

Wow, talking €300, about 55 pints, this guy will take that behind the bar in less than 10 minutes on NYE.

Tell him to do one and put on a free gig at the closest pub to him :D

electrogrimey

I've since talked to the lad in the band who was dealing with yer man who booked us. Guy from the band said we wanted at the very least €300 to cover expenses. He said fine, I'll get back to you. (This was a month or two ago). He then told us today he couldn't pay us because he had to pay everyone else, and didn't have anything left to give us except drinks vouchers...It was an email and we havn't replied yet, we'll be talking to him tomorrow though.

We don't want to boycott the gig, because it's a NYE gig and it will be fun to play, and we also don't want to make an enemy of this guy, because he's big in Bodytonic, who we get regular gigs from.

Still can't decide what to say to him though...TBH I think it's a lesson learned to go into a gig without getting a done deal regards money, but we're still going to hound him before we play for at least expenses.

PCPhoto

have you been paid for the previous gigs (from Bodytonic) ..... i understand BT are prob trying to cut costs to a minimum but surely that would mean that everyone would take a cut and not just one "act".

OP....as was suggested try to get it on paper that BT will offer you 1 gig a month or something similar ...at X amount of money, and then do tonights gig as a once off.

will send you a PM on this....am off to bed, will check it in the morning.

electrogrimey

In general BT are pretty tight on money, and I understand this is for all acts, but when we've played they've at least covered expenses. The ridiculous thing is that tonight they're paying everyone but us...don't really understand like. We gonna knock on his little office door tomorrow before the gig anyway and give him a piece of our mind, and hopefully walk out with a couple of hundred, or else a few contracted well-paid gigs.

Africa

Seriously, put it to him. Tighten the screws on him. Say that you MUST, MUST have your expenses paid at the least. Otherwise, DONT PLAY. Dont sell yourselves out for nothing and be taken advantage of.

Something similar happened to our band, told gettin paid then on the night that we arent. The fool didnt see that we had the backline though so we started packing it up, he says what you doin and we said going. 3 other bands there, but we didnt care - we were getting screwed. Ended up walking away with 200 quid so we did

Always get your expenses paid for, unless its for a good mate.

winterchickens

As an old timer at this racket you were told 'He said fine, I'll get back to you.' nothing was agreed. You were 'playing for maybe's' i.e. 'come and play for us and we will look after you'. How many times have you heard that and got nothing ...always!!, you will only have yourself to blame. Now then we played in Glasgow one time and the owner of the place started to haggle about the fee at the end of the night saying he did not have the dosh to cover the fee knowing we were not in a position to argue as we had to do another gig the next night in Newcastle. We told him we were in the musicians union and when he went to renew his licence we and the union would be there to explain to the judge how he rips off bands and should not get a licence from the government to do it. Another thing was that we would see to it that he would not get another Irish band ever to play for him. We got paid straight away.
Its a learning curve, put it down to experience and tell him to put up or shut up. While you are talking to him record it for future reference so you can let your fellow musicians hear it. The main thing is to agree a fee, post the guy a confirmation letter and register it. The old ways are the best.
Regards.
Tom.

thegrove54

unclebill98 wrote: »

Wow, can I do gigs for you? You sound like a great person to deal with.

oh i am if a band brings a crowd to one of my gigs ill happily give them a few quid if it is agreed on before the actual gig if not then i wont pay them simple as and if they start saying oh but we said we want this or we want that then **** off i couldn't care less unless its pre arranged ill hand out nothing.

If i had this band playing for me and it was pre arranged that i was going to pay them whatever and they brought the crowd that would enable me to do that then i would happily pay them. Im a musician as well so i know what its like to be ripped off by promoters.

All im saying is this band wasn't actually told that they were getting their expenses covered in a definite answer and just assumed they would be, thats their mistake, the guy thats organizing it is some prick for not covering their expenses and paying everyone else? thats not on like id tell him to shove it up his arse.

If i was the band i'd tell do the gig then while up on stage tell yer man to go shove a burnin coal up his hole.

sold

electrogrimey wrote: »

Any advice on what to say to him?

yes, I know of two words you may already have in mind.

Massive Muscles

Bodytonic are a business, you were mad to set such a low fee regardless.

Savman

electrogrimey wrote: »

We gonna knock on his little office door tomorrow before the gig anyway and give him a piece of our mind, and hopefully walk out with a couple of hundred, or else a few contracted well-paid gigs.

:eek:

the_barfly1

thegrove54 wrote: »

oh i am if a band brings a crowd to one of my gigs ill happily give them a few quid if it is agreed on before the actual gig if not then i wont pay them simple as and if they start saying oh but we said we want this or we want that then **** off i couldn't care less unless its pre arranged ill hand out nothing.

If i had this band playing for me and it was pre arranged that i was going to pay them whatever and they brought the crowd that would enable me to do that then i would happily pay them. Im a musician as well so i know what its like to be ripped off by promoters.

All im saying is this band wasn't actually told that they were getting their expenses covered in a definite answer and just assumed they would be, thats their mistake, the guy thats organizing it is some prick for not covering their expenses and paying everyone else? thats not on like id tell him to shove it up his arse.

If i was the band i'd tell do the gig then while up on stage tell yer man to go shove a burnin coal up his hole.

Off topic, but as the promoter, isn't what ive boldened YOUR job? Bands will have mates and whatnot come along regardless, but your making yourself sound like another well-known "promoter".
If a band is contracted to provide an entertainment service they should be paid, no ifs or buts about it. If you hired a plumber to fix your heating and then said to him after the job was done that he's not getting paid cause you never agreed a price he wouldn't be long about undoing whatever work he's done.

electrogrimey

What complicated the issue is that the guy in our band that dealt with yer man is also employed by him, he runs nights for him in town. So we can't really do anything that's not completely professional. Threatening not to play seems to be the best option...

Dr. Loon

Jesus. This isn't that complicated. Tell him you can't afford to play for nothing, so sorry but we're not playing. Fúckin "promoters". Years of being ****ed over by them. It's time bands put a stop to this ****.

Everyone else is getting paid but you're not!? Well then **** you.

leggo

As a DJ, I've never not got paid for a gig. Agree a definite price beforehand (no if's, but's, maybe's or assumptions...make them say 'No' if they've no intention of paying your price), set up the gear, pull them up nicely before the gear goes on and ask for the fee as agreed. If they don't pay up, gear doesn't go on.

The only people who'll have a problem are people that don't intend to pay (which I've had a couple of)...then just say, "Sorry. Just a personal policy so no mix-up's happen later on. Don't wanna have to go chasing you while you're having a few pints and don't want to be moving away from the gear once I start."

As far as what you do now, I'd play the half-set for the sole purpose that you never DEFINITELY agreed terms beforehand. It's your mess up and a lesson learned for the future. No point burning bridges and risking blackening your name. You don't know who this guy knows.

thegrove54

the_barfly1 wrote: »

Off topic, but as the promoter, isn't what ive boldened YOUR job? Bands will have mates and whatnot come along regardless, but your making yourself sound like another well-known "promoter".
If a band is contracted to provide an entertainment service they should be paid, no ifs or buts about it. If you hired a plumber to fix your heating and then said to him after the job was done that he's not getting paid cause you never agreed a price he wouldn't be long about undoing whatever work he's done.

yes it is my job to bring a crowd and i do my best i poster and flyer each gig and promote online as much as i can but theres only so much a promoter can do its down to the promoter and the bands to get the crowd there not just the promoter....

If i bring people and the band don't bother bringing anyone i wont takl about money with them at all. Why should they get paid if I the promoter bring all the people to it and they bring one or two of their mates.

Massive Muscles

Why should they get paid if I the promoter bring all the people to it and they bring one or two of their mates.

Are you out of your mind?

The band play the music, you promote the event.

thegrove54

thegrove54 wrote: »

yes it is my job to bring a crowd and i do my best i poster and flyer each gig and promote online as much as i can but theres only so much a promoter can do its down to the promoter and the bands to get the crowd there not just the promoter....

If i bring people and the band don't bother bringing anyone i wont takl about money with them at all. Why should they get paid if I the promoter bring all the people to it and they bring one or two of their mates.

With this attitude, you're completely in the wrong business.

themusicman

When I started gigging a long time ago we got one rule from old heads....dont play if the ghost doesnt walk

Money up front in most places nowadays..

Tonight you have to put down to experience and do the gig or you will be bad mouthed forever. Learn the lesson....music is a business like all others

thegrove54

so did he pay you in the end??

yoursaviour1989

thegrove54 wrote: »

yes it is my job to bring a crowd and i do my best i poster and flyer each gig and promote online as much as i can but theres only so much a promoter can do its down to the promoter and the bands to get the crowd there not just the promoter....

If i bring people and the band don't bother bringing anyone i wont takl about money with them at all. Why should they get paid if I the promoter bring all the people to it and they bring one or two of their mates.

BECAUSE IT'S YOUR JOB AS A PROMOTER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The clue is in the title of the job. I have been reading your posts over the last few months and your attitude to what you're doing is awful. The way you seem to want it is a band doing all the work and you provide a venue and rake in the profit. A band can't bring a crowd the whole time. My mates wouldn't come to see me play 99% of gigs, most are too far from home, and they'd be sick of listening to us if they did. You have to take all this into account. I'm not trying to attack you but you have to start changing tactics as very soon you're gonna run out of bands that will play for the price of a pint. Most of these bands aren't going to be fantastic anyway. Step back and take a look at things from a band's perspective.

@ OP, how did last night go, hope you got sorted.