Mystery recap - Christian Shephard

Sad Professor

So Christian apparently died of a heart attack during a drunken stupor in Sydney. We never actually saw his death but we saw Jack view the body and, well, he looked pretty dead. Jack put the coffin on the plane. The plane crashed. Jack found the coffin - no Christian. He later pops up in Horace's former cabin claiming to speak for Jacob.

Is he really Christian? He introduces himself to Locke and Sun as such and even tells Locke to say hello to his son. But maybe he just thinks he's Christian or has his memories.

Is it really Christian's body? Jack saw him shortly after the crash wearing the same tennis shoes he put on him in Sydney. However he has also magically appears on the freighter before it blows and in the distant past when Locke turns the wheel.

Jack also saw him in the real world after turning off a smoke alarm (hint?). And Hurley (who was seeing dead people) said that Charlie told him someone (assumedly Christian) would be coming to see Jack. But was this the same Christian we've seen on the island?

And then this season Miss Hawking told Jack to bring dead-Locke back to the island so he could act as a "substitute" for his father. Is what happened to Locke similar to what happened to Christian?

So what is Christian Shephard? Alive? Dead? Ghost? Undead?

Thoughts? Theories?

carnsoreboxer

They're all dead and dreaming or is it a nightmare!

Kiith

This is one of the (many) things that i havent got a clue about. I love when he is shown, especially the way they do it in the 1st few episodes. Looking forward to some sort of clue as to what/who he is.

Sad Professor wrote: »

And then this season Miss Hawking told Jack to bring dead-Locke back to the island so he could act as a "substitute" for his father. Is what happened to Locke similar to what happened to Christian?

Assuming for a minute that it is some sort of incarnation of Christian (big assumption i know), might we now start seeing Locke appearing to the survivors like Christian did?

Sad Professor

Kiith wrote: »

Assuming for a minute that it is some sort of incarnation of Christian (big assumption i know), might we now start seeing Locke appearing to the survivors like Christian did?

Perhaps he already has. Maybe Un-Locke is a manifestation by the island of the real Locke.

leggo

To ME, at least, it seems fairly obvious now that these visions of people on the island are Un-Locke trying to influence everyone to take the steps required for him to find his 'loophole'. Re-watching the entire series with that in mind seems to fit this theory. Every appearance inspires a reaction which ends up forwarding the plot to that point.

Right now, I'm thinking that the question isn't "What are the apparitions?"...as it seems they've answered that question...but instead, "What is the loophole?"

Then again, every time I decide to brave a theory, it is proven conclusively wrong within the first couple of scenes of the following episode. So who knows?

uncleoswald

leggo wrote: »

To ME, at least, it seems fairly obvious now that these visions of people on the island are Un-Locke trying to influence everyone to take the steps required for him to find his 'loophole'. Re-watching the entire series with that in mind seems to fit this theory. Every appearance inspires a reaction which ends up forwarding the plot to that point.

Right now, I'm thinking that the question isn't "What are the apparitions?"...as it seems they've answered that question...but instead, "What is the loophole?"

Yah I'd agree with this. Everytime "the Island" was leading Locke towards his destiny it was really Esau/UnLocke manipulating him to bring about this loophole. Why Locke was this loophole (or was it Ben) I have no idea.

I still think Christian may have some connection to the island in his past. Also the scene in which Jack goes to his grandads is still a bit of a mystery that may just be there to bluff us or there may be more to his character as well. The Grandad was talking about running away to a place they would never find him.

At this moment I'd say all apparitions, including Christian, are really Esau.

Originally Posted by Sad Professor
Is he really Christian? He introduces himself to Locke and Sun as such and even tells Locke to say hello to his son. But maybe he just thinks he's Christian or has his memories.

I think it would be the same way Unlocke spoke as Locke, had his memories etc....

Sad Professor

On the subject of Un-Locke:

I reckon Un-Locke=Esau is a massive red herring. Although everyone seems to be accepting it as fact, even Lostpedia. I actually think Un-Locke may be the real Locke, more or less. The main evidence for him being Esau is the "loophole" line, which could be explained another way.

For example, lets say Esau was the shadowy figure Locke saw in the cabin. At some point in the past, Esau died and became a bodiless spirit/demon that works by commandeering other bodies - à la Christian. Jacob knows this. He also knows Locke is dead. So when he sees Locke in the finale he ASSUMES he must be Esau, hence "you found your loophole". Locke is either playing along or referring to something totally different when he says "indeed I did".

Of course, then there's the problem of the body in the coffin. When I first saw Locke's body tumble out of the crate so many things seemed possible until that blasted "loophole" line led us in a particular direction.

I've no problem with the idea of a false Locke, I just think Un-Locke is too much like the old Locke for it to be the case. It's not just memories, he has the same personality and everything.

uncleoswald

Sad Professor wrote: »

I've no problem with the idea of a false Locke, I just think Un-Locke is too much like the old Locke for it to be the case. It's not just memories, he has the same personality and everything.

Yes that same horrible smug personality.
I don't know, maybe my hope that Locke is dead is clouding my judgement on the matter but watching it again recently I think/hope that Locke was been set up from the beginning. Watching him been talked into turning the wheel brought to mind a suicide bomber been recruited, been told what they needed to hear to make sure they go through with it, been convinced that his death was his destiny and great things would come from it.

Unlocke certainly has Lockes personality but then as I said Christian seems very like himself on the island too. And UnLocke had to appear as Locke in order to convince Richard and Ben it was him in order to carry out his plan.

Also simply from a tidiness point of view the writers need to start bringing threads back together. If smokey, esau, and unlocke are all different then that just leaves far too many factions on the island that still need to be explained so the last season is going to be very very messy.

Sad Professor

Yeah but I just can't see them leaving real Locke dead. I'd love it if they were so bold, but there's just no way Locke's "destiny" was to be strangled by Ben and then to have his likeness be robbed by Smokey or Esau. If Un-Locke isn't the real Locke that means Locke still to come back to life to complete his character arc and save everyone, etc. This would be far messier, not to mention repetitive, as we kinda thought he came back to life already.

Season 6 will probably mirror the first season. So Un-Locke may just be an attempt to get Locke back to what he was in the beginning - confident and mysterious. We all thought he was a bad guy back then as well. Then Walkabout happened. I reckon a similar revelation is on the way.

uncleoswald

I agree that we haven't seen the end of Locke (however they do that I have no idea) and I do think he will be vindicated to some degree.

Back to Christian, why is Claire so important to him if he is not Christian? Why did he keep her but let Aaron leave the Island? As part of the plan that would bring them back? This is a pretty complicated plan.

Originally Posted by Sad Professor
And then this season Miss Hawking told Jack to bring dead-Locke back to the island so he could act as a "substitute" for his father. Is what happened to Locke similar to what happened to Christian?

A bit off topic but watching season 5 today I noticed that the French crew who were stranded on the Island also had two of the supposed requirements for the "substitutes". A pregnant woman and a guitar case.

Sad Professor

uncleoswald wrote: »

Back to Christian, why is Claire so important to him if he is not Christian? Why did he keep her but let Aaron leave the Island? As part of the plan that would bring them back? This is a pretty complicated plan.

Are we sure he had any interest in Claire though? He looked more interested in Aaron. And Claire was either drugged or possessed in the cabin that time. Maybe he was just pacifying her long enough for the O6 to leave the island. Claire running around screaming about her baby might have given Jack and co some second thoughts about jumping on that helicopter. If he was real Christian why would he have done that to Claire? Surely he would have let her leave too. There's no way he talked her into leaving her baby in the middle of the jungle and walking off. He did something to her. All ties into Aaron's importance, I guess.

But besides all that, Island-Christian is just too creepy to be real Christian imo.

I can't make head nor tail of Christian's plan either. It seems like one of Ben's convoluted plots.

But - and this ties into my theory about Un-Locke above - lets say Esau is possessing Christian's dead body (and memories). And lets say Esau had a plan to take over Locke's body. But maybe for some reason he can only take over a body which died off island (otherwise he'd be taking over bodies left right and center). This would kinda explain his plan for Locke to leave, die and return. It would also possibly indicate that Hawking is working for Esau.

A bit off topic but watching season 5 today I noticed that the French crew who were stranded on the Island also had two of the supposed requirements for the "substitutes". A pregnant woman and a guitar case.

I'm very hazy on that episode, but was that not a violin?

uncleoswald

Sad Professor wrote: »

But - and this ties into my theory about Un-Locke above - lets say Esau is possessing Christian's dead body (and memories). And lets say Esau had a plan to take over Locke's body. But maybe for some reason he can only take over a body which died off island (otherwise he'd be taking over bodies left right and center). This would kinda explain his plan for Locke to leave, die and return. It would also possibly indicate that Hawking is working for Esau.

I can find no fault with this logic beyond the fact its a pretty weird loophole to have.

I'm very hazy on that episode, but was that not a violin?

It was a bit small to be a guitar now that you mention it

carnsoreboxer

You are all wrong - Hurley is sadly in a mental home, think Portrane, he's very clever and has developed this computer game which we are watching!

Mr.Nice Guy

I would side more with leggo on this.

I think the Season 5 finale indicates that the apparitions have been Jacob's nemesis all along and that Christian was a similar manifestation. I think UnLocke is the same way.

There was a line UnLocke said to Sun when she was surprised to see him 'alive' where he smiled at her and remarked something like, "Don't worry, I'm the same Locke I always was." This seems to have been a lie in light of what we later saw. Also when Ben summons the monster it doesn't show up but UnLocke walks out of the jungle, and when the smoke monster 'judges' Ben in the form of Alex, UnLocke is gone yet when it's over he reappears. I don't see this as coincidental. I think UnLocke = smoke monster = nemesis. If this is not the case I certainly think there is some sort of link between the above.

As for Locke, I do think he will continue to play a part but I wouldn't be surprised if Miles will be the only one able to see him on account of his ability.

cooker3

uncleoswald wrote: »

I still think Christian may have some connection to the island in his past. Also the scene in which Jack goes to his grandads is still a bit of a mystery that may just be there to bluff us or there may be more to his character as well.

I don't think there is any big mystery to that. They just needed a way of explaining why Christian wears white tennis shoes and that was it.

Sad Professor wrote: »

On the subject of Un-Locke:

I've no problem with the idea of a false Locke, I just think Un-Locke is too much like the old Locke for it to be the case. It's not just memories, he has the same personality and everything.

I admit I haven't gotten to season 5 yet on the re-watch so it's been 8 months or so since I saw it as such I maybe a bit hazy on the details but I remember UnLocke acting fairly differently to Locke. There was a certainty and purpose that Locke never really had. He even managed to manipulate the great manipulator himself easily. The total reverse of the previous 3 seasons.

As much as I respect Terry O'Quinn there is only so much one can do and I assume he was walking the tightrope of acting differently but not so much so that it would be become obvious that this isn't the Locke we knew.

That was my reading of it anyway

Sad Professor

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

I think the Season 5 finale indicates that the apparitions have been Jacob's nemesis all along and that Christian was a similar manifestation. I think UnLocke is the same way.

Okay, well lets assume this is true for a second. Take the 3 most prominent apparitions on the island: Christian, Yemi and Alex. All 3 are dead. All 3 had bodies which were on the island but were unaccounted for at the time of their appearance. Christian's body wasn't in the coffin; Yemi's disappeared from the plane; and Alex's was apparently left in the open in Dharmaville. Was this all a coincidence, or might it suggest that Esau actually used those bodies?

It wouldn't be totally illogical to draw the conclusion that Esau was commandeering those bodies. If not, and if he could just take the form of whoever he liked, why did 2 of those bodies (that we know of) disappear? And why didn't he take the form of Locke or Ben or anyone else long before now? His powers must to be limited. In that case, the presence of a second Locke body, which Ilana apparently found undisturbed in the cargo hold of Ajira 316, would seem to actually disprove the idea that Esau is Un-Locke.

I grant there are problems with this. All that remained of Yemi's body was a skeleton (if it that really was Yemi's body) and Christian may not have been in the coffin to begin with.

Another prominent apparition was Ben's mother. When Young-Ben told Richard about it, Richard's first question was - did she die on the island? An interesting question I thought.

Also what the hell did Richard want with that Dharma body in "La Fleur"?

Also when Ben summons the monster it doesn't show up but UnLocke walks out of the jungle, and when the smoke monster 'judges' Ben in the form of Alex, UnLocke is gone yet when it's over he reappears.

We've never seen Richard and Smokey at the same time either. Doesn't mean he is Smokey. Although lots of people were theorising this last season. Locke walking out of the jungle, etc, may just be the writers leading us astray. Mind you, I was convinced back in season 3 that Charlie dying was a red herring as well - it wasn't.

uncleoswald

Sad Professor wrote: »

Another prominent apparition was Ben's mother. When Young-Ben told Richard about it, Richard's first question was - did she die on the island? An interesting question I thought.

But she didn't die on the island so what was her apparition? Jacob appears as himself as far as we can tell so this must have been the same whatever as was appearing to everyone else.

Also what the hell did Richard want with that Dharma body in "La Fleur"?

I got the impression it was because Richard knew the other Others would demand revenge for the death of their two people so he could bring the body to appease them. One thing that confused me though was why did Miles have to deliver the Dharmas dead body from Radzinsky to Chang in "Some Like it Hoth?" Not saying there is a big mystery to it just seems like a strange place to bring a body.

Sad Professor

uncleoswald wrote: »

But she didn't die on the island so what was her apparition? Jacob appears as himself as far as we can tell so this must have been the same whatever as was appearing to everyone else.

I don't know. I used to have a theory that Ben seeing his mother was akin to Hurley seeing dead people, and that they were the spirits of people who had died and were trying to guide the Losties. That's why Richard was interested in Ben - he would be able to see Jacob, who I assumed was dead.

But that was all before we learned that the guy in the cabin most likely wasn't Jacob, who is (or was) very much alive, and Ben claimed that he didn't see anything in the cabin.

I still don't think all the visions/apparitions are the same thing. Some of them such as Charlie seem quite real and have good intentions. But then maybe it's a mistake to assume that Esau is the Big Bad.

I got the impression it was because Richard knew the other Others would demand revenge for the death of their two people so he could bring the body to appease them.

Yeah that would make sense.

One thing that confused me though was why did Miles have to deliver the Dharmas dead body from Radzinsky to Chang in "Some Like it Hoth?" Not saying there is a big mystery to it just seems like a strange place to bring a body.

Maybe to do tests or something? Tbh my only memory of that episode is of Hurley writing The Empire Strikes Back.

Sad Professor

cooker3 wrote: »

I admit I haven't gotten to season 5 yet on the re-watch so it's been 8 months or so since I saw it as such I maybe a bit hazy on the details but I remember UnLocke acting fairly differently to Locke. There was a certainty and purpose that Locke never really had. He even managed to manipulate the great manipulator himself easily. The total reverse of the previous 3 seasons.

Season 1 Locke was very confident and mysterious as well. He had a secret. Un-Locke is the same. Of course that secret may be that he isn't actually Locke at all. But I really don't think that's the case. I was looking over the Un-Locke episodes recently and there's loads to suggest he's the real Locke.

UN-LOCKE: What is it? Why are we stopping?
RICHARD: You'll see.
UN-LOCKE: Well, it's a wonderful foot, Richard, but what does it have to do with Jacob?
RICHARD: It's where he lives.

Esau knows where Jacob lives. Jacob even said, "You know where to find me". There is no reason for him to get Richard to lead him there. And yet Un-Locke seemingly does need Richard to find Jacob, and when they arrive at the statue he is surprised. If this is all an act, why bring Richard and the Others at all?

Also in the finale:

BEN: Well, I starting thinking differently about things when my dead daughter threatened to destroy me if I didn't do everything you said.
UN-LOCKE: [stopping Ben] Whoa, whoa, wait...where did this happen?
BEN: In that cavern, beneath the Temple. When we went to see the monster.
UN-LOCKE: So you're willing to do whatever I say, no matter what it is?

Another example from "Dead is Dead":

UN-LOCKE: You don't like this, do you?
BEN: What?
UN-LOCKE: Having to ask questions that you don't know the answers to, blindly following someone in the hopes that they'll lead you to whatever it is you're looking for.
BEN: No, John, I don't like it at all.
UN-LOCKE: Well, now you know what it was like to be me.

Sounds like the real Locke, no?

None of this eliminates the possibility that he is Esau doing a really excellent imitation of the real Locke but he's gone far beyond what was needed to convince everyone. If has access to all of Locke's memories and personality - he might as well be the real Locke, even if he is also Esau.

cooker3

Well if his goal is to get Ben to kill Jacob then he would need to be very convincing. We know Ben is a great reader of people. You also have to consider Bens devotion to Jacob, remembering his words just before he turned the frozen donkey wheel and how emotional he was. The absolute dejection when Jacob said "what about you"
Jacob was someone Ben was giving up everything for so to try to get him to kill Jacob is a very tough task. I don't think it's unreasonable for him to keep that up that sort of detail. He has been planning it for 150 odd years!

There was more focus to Locke in season 1 but it was still mixed in with doubt. Remember how frustrated he was when he couldn't open the hatch. There was never any doubt to Locke in season 5 (post flight 316 crash) but perhaps I am overemphasizing certain aspects and forgetting others.

You're getting me excited about re-watching season 5!

Dman001

Just reading through the thread and some believe that Christian is actually Esau. If this was the case, why wouldn't Christian just kill Jacob? Like Sad Professor said, Esau knew where Jacob lived so there would be no apparent reason Esau needed to be Locke to kill Jacob.

After re-watching an episode of Season 5, we saw how different one of Roseau's friend (Robert?) acted after being sucked in by the Monster. He attempted to kill Roseau and he claimed that the monster was protecting the temple which is very interesting.

Mr.Nice Guy

Sad Professor wrote: »

Okay, well lets assume this is true for a second. Take the 3 most prominent apparitions on the island: Christian, Yemi and Alex. All 3 are dead. All 3 had bodies which were on the island but were unaccounted for at the time of their appearance. Christian's body wasn't in the coffin; Yemi's disappeared from the plane; and Alex's was apparently left in the open in Dharmaville. Was this all a coincidence, or might it suggest that Esau actually used those bodies?

It wouldn't be totally illogical to draw the conclusion that Esau was commandeering those bodies. If not, and if he could just take the form of whoever he liked, why did 2 of those bodies (that we know of) disappear? And why didn't he take the form of Locke or Ben or anyone else long before now? His powers must to be limited. In that case, the presence of a second Locke body, which Ilana apparently found undisturbed in the cargo hold of Ajira 316, would seem to actually disprove the idea that Esau is Un-Locke.

I grant there are problems with this. All that remained of Yemi's body was a skeleton (if it that really was Yemi's body) and Christian may not have been in the coffin to begin with.

Another prominent apparition was Ben's mother. When Young-Ben told Richard about it, Richard's first question was - did she die on the island? An interesting question I thought.

I wouldn't be averse to the idea that Esau commandeered the bodies. I'm just not so sure he needs the actual bodies to do this. It is possible though. I recall when Sawyer tried to get Amy to come along after killing those men to save her life, she was adamant that they had to bury the bodies. Was this simply because she was worried about the truce between Dharma and the Others being broken, or did she know something about Esau/Smokie's ability to take over people?

I don't however think the presence of a second Locke body disproves the idea that it is UnLocke. Remember that the monster has encountered Locke before and seemed to do some sort of a scan on him. We know from Ben's encounter with it that it can apparently read a person's memories. It's possible that the monster/Esau needs the bodies of those it has not directly encountered before, but in Locke's case it didn't need it as it had already figured him out already so to speak. This could explain why it attacked and tried to kill both Locke and Eko at the second time of encountering them.

It's hard to know but as uncleoswald said Ben's mother didn't die on the island and yet he saw a vision of her. Does this indicate then that the smoke monster/Esau doesn't need the dead to imitate them? Also, what about Walt? Was he a manifestation of the smoke monster/Esau or does his unique ability make him a special case?

Sad Professor wrote:

Also what the hell did Richard want with that Dharma body in "La Fleur"?

The impression seemed to be that Sawyer negotiated a deal to take the body in order to ensure the truce wasn't broken. Whether this is the full story I'm not sure. I find Amy's behaviour in that episode quite unusual and I only noticed when watching it recently that the necklace she took from her dead husband was the exact same as the one that is held in the hand of the big giant statue in the time of Jacob and Esau's conversation:





Why was a Dharma worker wearing an ancient symbol? Why did she take it off his dead body?

Sad Professor wrote:

Esau knows where Jacob lives. Jacob even said, "You know where to find me". There is no reason for him to get Richard to lead him there. And yet Un-Locke seemingly does need Richard to find Jacob, and when they arrive at the statue he is surprised. If this is all an act, why bring Richard and the Others at all?

Well it seemed like Esau needed Ben to be his instrument to kill Jacob and it seems only Richard knew of Jacob's presence. As Ben himself said, he had been told to be patient and yet when Locke asked to see Jacob he was marched up like he was Moses. Thus it seems only Richard knew of Jacob's whereabouts, so if the guy Richard thought was John Locke was to march confidently to Jacob's location then the whole plan would be ruined since Richard would know something was afoot.

Sad Professor wrote:

Sounds like the real Locke, no?

None of this eliminates the possibility that he is Esau doing a really excellent imitation of the real Locke but he's gone far beyond what was needed to convince everyone. If has access to all of Locke's memories and personality - he might as well be the real Locke, even if he is also Esau.

I think this was just a well played act. The really telling conversation occurred in the finale:

GRAY-HAIRED MAN: One of these days, sooner or later... I'm going to find a loophole, my friend.
JACOB: Well, when you do, I'll be right here.

And later...

LOCKE: Hello, Jacob.
JACOB: Well, you found your loophole.
LOCKE: Indeed I did. And you have no idea what I've gone through to be here.

The simplest explanation to draw here is that the events talked about at the beginning of the episode have come true near the end of it.

Also there are a few moments in season 5 where UnLocke seems to have a rather sinister way about him. One or two lingering looks that don't seem to fit with the Locke of season 1 who seemed a bit more upbeat (such as the legendary orange bit. )

Dman001 wrote:

Just reading through the thread and some believe that Christian is actually Esau. If this was the case, why wouldn't Christian just kill Jacob? Like Sad Professor said, Esau knew where Jacob lived so there would be no apparent reason Esau needed to be Locke to kill Jacob.

Probably for the same reason Esau told Ben he was the one who would kill Jacob. There seems to be something stopping Esau from doing the deed himself. After all he couldn't kill him on the island when the Black Rock showed up, remember?

GRAY-HAIRED MAN: Do you have any idea how badly I wanna kill you?
BLOND MAN: Yes.

There's some reason preventing him from doing so himself.

Dman001

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Probably for the same reason Esau told Ben he was the one who would kill Jacob. There seems to be something stopping Esau from doing the deed himself. After all he couldn't kill him on the island when the Black Rock showed up, remember?

Oh yes, I forgot that it was Ben who killed Jacob and not UnLocke.

Sad Professor

cooker3 wrote:

There was more focus to Locke in season 1 but it was still mixed in with doubt. Remember how frustrated he was when he couldn't open the hatch.

Yeah but before the hatch Locke was a confident and spiritual man of the jungle, who found Walt's dog, built Claire a crib, and gave out words of wisdom about life to Charlie. Terry O'Quinn has said more than once that he was not fond of the direction the character took subsequently.

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Was this simply because she was worried about the truce between Dharma and the Others being broken, or did she know something about Esau/Smokie's ability to take over people?

This is what I thought at the time. But then again I had this evil body-possessing demon thing on the brain last season, lol. It was the only way I could reconcile the writers' constant claims that Christian was dead with the fact that his body was seemingly walking around the island. I thought Amy's insistence that they bury the body in La Fleur was a big hint at this - as was Richard's taking of the Dharma body. I also expected that since Ben left Alex unburied she was probably going to pop up again - and she did.

In retrospect, there may have been a more straight-forward and innocent explanation for all that.

Remember that the monster has encountered Locke before and seemed to do some sort of a scan on him. We know from Ben's encounter with it that it can apparently read a person's memories.

Yeah but Un-Locke has memories right up to the real Locke's death. Smokey could not have known all of that. Unless he scanned Locke again while he was the coffin after crashing. But this makes several big assumptions: that Smokey can travel to Hydra island; that he can scan a dead person; that he can do it without causing any disturbance. From what Ilana said, Locke's body was sitting undisturbed in the cargo hold of the plane. Moreover, there has never been so much as a sniff of Smokey on Hydra island. He is supposedly a security system for the Temple after all. And "Dead is Dead" seemed to affirm his connection to the Temple.

Why was a Dharma worker wearing an ancient symbol?

Yeah, the Ankh. According to Wikipedia it is a symbol of eternal life or immortality.

Also there are a few moments in season 5 where UnLocke seems to have a rather sinister way about him.

True, the most sinister sounding bit is this:

UN-LOCKE: Once I've done that, we're gonna need to deal with the rest of the passengers from the Ajira flight that brought me here.
RICHARD: What do you mean, "deal with them"?
UN-LOCKE: You know what I mean.

Kill them? He may just be referring to Ilana and her crew though.

cooker3

Sad Professor wrote: »

Yeah but before the hatch Locke was a confident and spiritual man of the jungle, who found Walt's dog, built Claire a crib, and gave out words of wisdom about life to Charlie. Terry O'Quinn has said more than once that he was not fond of the direction the character took subsequently.

As a total aside seeing as you mention the crib building. 1 of the few disappointments about season 4 was Locke and Claire. He became a 2nd father to her on the island but there was no hint of that of that in the barracks. The only conversation they had he totally rebuffed her fairly reasonable suggestion. Considering Charlie just died I wish they had done a bit more with that.

me-skywalker

hmm the one guy that doesnt age... the one guy that knows where Jacob is... the one guy who is looking for a loophole... the one guy who said hes been through a hell of a lot to get things in place...

is Richard Easu's agent? or is Richard another person taken over by Easu?

Daroxtar

Sad Professor wrote: »

Are we sure he had any interest in Claire though? He looked more interested in Aaron. And Claire was either drugged or possessed in the cabin that time. Maybe he was just pacifying her long enough for the O6 to leave the island. Claire running around screaming about her baby might have given Jack and co some second thoughts about jumping on that helicopter. If he was real Christian why would he have done that to Claire? Surely he would have let her leave too. There's no way he talked her into leaving her baby in the middle of the jungle and walking off. He did something to her. All ties into Aaron's importance, I guess.

But besides all that, Island-Christian is just too creepy to be real Christian imo.

I can't make head nor tail of Christian's plan either. It seems like one of Ben's convoluted plots.

But - and this ties into my theory about Un-Locke above - lets say Esau is possessing Christian's dead body (and memories). And lets say Esau had a plan to take over Locke's body. But maybe for some reason he can only take over a body which died off island (otherwise he'd be taking over bodies left right and center). This would kinda explain his plan for Locke to leave, die and return. It would also possibly indicate that Hawking is working for Esau.

Sad Professor wrote: »

Okay, well lets assume this is true for a second. Take the 3 most prominent apparitions on the island: Christian, Yemi and Alex. All 3 are dead. All 3 had bodies which were on the island but were unaccounted for at the time of their appearance. Christian's body wasn't in the coffin; Yemi's disappeared from the plane; and Alex's was apparently left in the open in Dharmaville. Was this all a coincidence, or might it suggest that Esau actually used those bodies?

It wouldn't be totally illogical to draw the conclusion that Esau was commandeering those bodies. If not, and if he could just take the form of whoever he liked, why did 2 of those bodies (that we know of) disappear? And why didn't he take the form of Locke or Ben or anyone else long before now? His powers must to be limited. In that case, the presence of a second Locke body, which Ilana apparently found undisturbed in the cargo hold of Ajira 316, would seem to actually disprove the idea that Esau is Un-Locke.

I grant there are problems with this. All that remained of Yemi's body was a skeleton (if it that really was Yemi's body) and Christian may not have been in the coffin to begin with.

Another prominent apparition was Ben's mother. When Young-Ben told Richard about it, Richard's first question was - did she die on the island? An interesting question I thought.

Also what the hell did Richard want with that Dharma body in "La Fleur"?

Do you not think its possible that Claire is dead? If Smokey or Esau have the power of taking over a body then rather than her being drugged or in some way pacified wouldnt it be just as probable that it wasn't her at all in the cabin but merely an apparition/resurection like the other aforementioned carachters?

Sad Professor

Daroxtar wrote: »

Do you not think its possible that Claire is dead? If Smokey or Esau have the power of taking over a body then rather than her being drugged or in some way pacified wouldnt it be just as probable that it wasn't her at all in the cabin but merely an apparition/resurection like the other aforementioned carachters?

It is possible. There was definitely something up with her. I'm not sure I like the idea that she is dead though.

Sad Professor

Daroxtar wrote: »

wouldnt it be just as probable that it wasn't her at all in the cabin

I was just re-watching that scene in the cabin and actually I think you have it exactly right. It was NOT Claire at all. Not her spirit, not her body. It was Esau or Smokey. I really don't like this shapeshifting business, but screw it - there's too much evidence to ignore the possibility.

So lets consider it for a second. Esau is a shapeshifter. The person he's emulating doesn't have to be dead. He just has to come in contact with them. He came in contact with Claire and took her form.

But there's something about Christian that's relevant as well. In 4x01, Hurley looks in the window of the cabin and sees 2 different figures. I can't find a decent youtube video of this scene but here is an accurate description of it from Lostpedia:

Hurley hears whispers, and suddenly a light appears in the cabin's window. Approaching carefully, Hurley looks through a broken window and sees Christian Shephard in the rocking chair. A figure moves quickly in front of the window and an eye appears, looking back at Hurley. Frightened, Hurley runs from the cabin.

This eye looks like the exact same eye Locke saw in the cabin in season 3. Back then we assumed it was Jacob. Let's say this shadowy figure is Esau. That would indicate Christian is not actually Esau at all but is just working for him. This would rebut my theory that Christian's body is being possessed by Esau.

But if Christian and Esau are separate, then what is Christian? If he is Smokey that means Esau and Smokey are also separate entities. Either that or the shadowy figure (and eye) is not Esau. If not, and if it's not Jacob either, who else could it be? (This is getting confusing.)

An another thing - this scene in 4x01 was originally written and shot differently. Apparently in the original version when Hurley looked in the window he was going to see HIMSELF sitting in the rocking chair. But ABC thought this was too weird so the writers changed it to Christian. I'm not sure if the writers abandoned this idea or just pushed it back a bit. It would certainly add credence to the idea that someone on the island is a shapeshifter.

blue_steel

At this stage Darlton are going to have to come up with one hell of an explanation that isn't going to contradict something that happened somewhere in the 100+ episodes.
I have never read any conjecture about a single aspect of LOST that can't be contradicted; never mind a theory that tries to explain the entire show. I think to simply ignore this fact is a big mistake.
I suspect that somehow we aren't seeing the wood for the trees. We are focusing on the minutia and ignoring some glaringly obvious fact. Damned if I can see what it is though. And I hope I don't figure it out to be honest. I am hoping for another experience like the Flash-forward head f**k at the end of Season 3. The sudden realisation that you didn't know what you were looking at all along. Remember how amazing that was. Imagine that multiplied by six seasons

cooker3

Just watched the life and death of Jeremy Bentham tonight (Lockes death scene is so much more disturbing through lens of what occurred in the Incident)

It reminded me that it was Christian who told Locke to go see Eloise. How did he know about her? There is nothing to suggest the real Christian had contact with her when he was alive, of course you can't rule it out, but it doesn't seem too likely.

If Esau is Christian, then how did the relationship with Eloise come about? We know she spent decades on the island with Charles and Richard. Was she compromised at some point? When did she even leave the island and why?

It's also interesting to note how Widmore told Locke in Tunisia that he must return to the island or the wrong side will win. Considering his relationship with Eloise, is he on the side of Esau as well?

Where does Richard come into all this?

c montgomery

I gotta watch season 5 again. Im after forgetting so much:(

BaelNaMblath

I'm almost positive that Christian is an avatar of the man in black, just like I think Locke is.