Council liability for icy roads

Plates

Anyone know if the council can be held liable for not taking resonable measures to keep roads ice free? My wife hit a patch of ice on the Navan Road - on the dual carriageway beside where they've built apartments on the old racecourse - and went up on the pavement and hit 2 trees - writing the car off in the process. The Gardai made out a report and said they'd take it up with the council as the road hadn't been gritted. While they were at the scene 3 other cars lost temporary control in the same area.

Anyone had a similar experience in the last few weeks? How did the insurance companies react?

colm_mcm

There has to be a level of personal responsibility here. how is it the council's fault?

Plates

Presumably some part of my Motor Tax goes towards keeping the roads safe? Especially frequently used Dual Carriageways? I know there needs to be an element of personal responsibility - but I would have thought the council have a part to play - in the same way as they do if you break your ankle on a hole in the pavement.

KTRIC

I have no expierience with the OP's wife's driving so I can't comment on it but I'm really shocked by the ridiculous driving I've seen recently.

Several times I've actually seen people purposely sliding around corners and accelerating at silly speeds.

colm_mcm

There are warnings all over the place telling people to not travel unless necessary, to allow 10 times the braking distances etc. they can't grit every square inch of the country. Your wife has to accept that the council didn't crash her car, and that it was possible to go where she was going without crashing.

I do sympathise with your situation, but I wouldn't expect the council to buy me a new jeep if I stuffed mine.

Atomic Pineapple

The county council will simply say your wife didn't adjust her driving according to the conditions

jimmyw

Plates wrote: »

Presumably some part of my Motor Tax goes towards keeping the roads safe? Especially frequently used Dual Carriageways? I know there needs to be an element of personal responsibility - but I would have thought the council have a part to play - in the same way as they do if you break your ankle on a hole in the pavement.

I am afraid it does not, it all goes into the same bucket:mad::(

pyramuid man

colm_mcm wrote: »

There are warnings all over the place telling people to not travel unless necessary, to allow 10 times the braking distances etc. they can't grit every square inch of the country. Your wife has to accept that the council didn't crash her car, and that it was possible to go where she was going without crashing.

I do sympathise with your situation, but I wouldn't expect the council to buy me a new jeep if I stuffed mine.

I agree. I have done alot of driving including on Christmas day where there were 3 or 4 inches of snow on the road. I took preventative measures to ensure I didn't crash and it took about 4 or 5 times longer to get where I was going but I got there.

Even gritting cannot ensure you wont crash. If the council have done it then they have done their part.

I can empathise but as Colm said, I wouldn't expect the council to pay for a new car for me if I crashed. Thats what my insurance is for.

Seth Brundle

If she was going fast enough to leave the road and hit two trees, and get written off then she was going far too fast for the conditions. Her fault entirely IMO and I reckon that the council would side with me!
As for grit, although it has already been mentioned, it is not a saviour and is only there to help whilst driving appropriately for the conditions.
There have also been several warnings in the media about driving and she (along with most other motorists) choose to ignore them.

PCPhoto

agree with the above poster and also want to point out the many media announcements saying that unless the journey is essential ....dont drive.

Plates

Jaysus lads will you lighten up? I'm just looking for a feckin loophole so we don't get hammered on our insurance. Any tips would be appreciated (not including driving tips as you all seem to be experts on that).

Maybe you can suggest how she could have got to work without driving when the nearest public transport leaves her with a 25 minute walk from work - on icy pavements? I will then agree that she shouldn't have ignored the "no driving" warnings.

Come to think of it - since you're all so quick to jump to the support of the council - and you can avoid driving - I'm guessing at least of couple of you are public servants?

spongeman

Plates wrote: »

Presumably some part of my Motor Tax goes towards keeping the roads safe? Especially frequently used Dual Carriageways? I know there needs to be an element of personal responsibility - but I would have thought the council have a part to play - in the same way as they do if you break your ankle on a hole in the pavement.

There is some truth in the above.

The Council's response to the icy roads has been lacklustre, to say the least.

tallaghtoutlaws

One thing that bugs me personally is the fact people think gritting fixes the slippery roads completely. I live between here and the US and in Wisconsin they grit the roads constantly but this does not solve the problems of accidents. People still don't take caution while driving and they get snow and ice every winter. Having driven there a lot the roads are still icy enough to send you spinning if you brake too hard or drive too fast simple as.

It is the same here. People are putting full blame on the councils for accidents. Sure they could do more to grit the roads but people need to slow the fook down or not drive in it at all. I have seen far too many drive way too fast in the last 7 days in these conditions and they would be the very ones who will crash and pass the book of blame.

If you have to drive slow down and take your time. Don't slam your breaks and take corners too hard.

Seth Brundle

Plates wrote: »

Jaysus lads will you lighten up? I'm just looking for a feckin loophole so we don't get hammered on our insurance. Any tips would be appreciated (not including driving tips as you all seem to be experts on that).

Maybe you can suggest how she could have got to work without driving when the nearest public transport leaves her with a 25 minute walk from work - on icy pavements? I will then agree that she shouldn't have ignored the "no driving" warnings.

Come to think of it - since you're all so quick to jump to the support of the council - and you can avoid driving - I'm guessing at least of couple of you are public servants?

I work in the private sector. When I drive, I tend to blame myself for my own actions. Were I to leave the road and smack into two trees, then I would know that I was at fault and not anyone else including the council (unless they were negligently responsible). In this case they were not negligent.
I do not know of any loophole that your missus can use as there is nothing there for her. She crashed (and by the sounds of it may have damaged public property). Thankfully she is fine and for this you should be grateful!

spongeman

Although you would need a very sympathetic insaurance company.

pburns

Why is it when something goes wrong people in this country always have to find someone else to blame (preferebly 'de guvernmint' or some other state authority?)

Does the OP expect some sort of utopia where all roads are gritted on a round-the-clock basis and black ice eradicated? Stupid advice from the Guards but then they're up in arms with 'de guvernmint' atm because we don't want to continue paying them a kings ransom for overtime.

Atomic Pineapple

Plates wrote: »

Jaysus lads will you lighten up? I'm just looking for a feckin loophole so we don't get hammered on our insurance. Any tips would be appreciated (not including driving tips as you all seem to be experts on that).

Sorry but there is no loophole, your wife crashed her car while driving in icy conditions and that is no fault of the county council. Nor do the council have any responsibility for it happening.

KTRIC

Plates wrote: »

I'm just looking for a feckin loophole so we don't get hammered on our insurance.

People like you are whats wrong with Ireland, loophole my arse :mad:

pyramuid man

Plates wrote: »

Jaysus lads will you lighten up? I'm just looking for a feckin loophole so we don't get hammered on our insurance. Any tips would be appreciated (not including driving tips as you all seem to be experts on that).

Maybe you can suggest how she could have got to work without driving when the nearest public transport leaves her with a 25 minute walk from work - on icy pavements? I will then agree that she shouldn't have ignored the "no driving" warnings.

Come to think of it - since you're all so quick to jump to the support of the council - and you can avoid driving - I'm guessing at least of couple of you are public servants?

I am no public servant and I drive an hour and a half to and from work every day normally. Over the last week or two it has taken nearly three hours to get to work every day.

Public servants have to drive to work as well. They also worked over christmas and on christmas day. More than most of the private sector.

Pete4779

The council can only do what they reasonably can within budgets and money for staff to go out gritting. Most of the councils did not seem to have the money so it's hardly their fault. Plus, the general advice given by Gardai/AA, etc., was that you should not have been driving at all if possible as it was dangerous, publicly known and everyone was warned.

PCPhoto

Plates wrote: »

Jaysus lads will you lighten up? I'm just looking for a feckin loophole so we don't get hammered on our insurance. Any tips would be appreciated (not including driving tips as you all seem to be experts on that).

Maybe you can suggest how she could have got to work without driving when the nearest public transport leaves her with a 25 minute walk from work - on icy pavements? I will then agree that she shouldn't have ignored the "no driving" warnings.

Come to think of it - since you're all so quick to jump to the support of the council - and you can avoid driving - I'm guessing at least of couple of you are public servants?

Taxi !!(maybe) .....and I'm not a public servant - self employed photographer - who has turned down work over the last few days as I dont want to risk getting myself hurt...or my insurance going up due to my own inability to drive in icy conditions .

As for your loophole that you would like to seek - you are grasping at straws, while I do agree that the roads probably should have been gritted on a regular basis (every 4-6hours) ...but its a two pronged defence .... if the roads were gritted properly she might have been able to drive safely to work..... however, knowing that conditions were bad she should have driven accordingly......does she know how to drive on ice or in icy conditions ....there is lot of people who cant drive properly in this country - and even less can drive properly on good roads.

OP .... if you contest it and take a legal action against the council - make sure you have proof that this year they gritted less and/or spent less money on ensuring the roads were attended to....or that they didnt follow their own contingency plan for such icy conditions .... if you do want to go the legal route ....you will prob only have to pay costs ...so max a couple of grand if you loose.

As another poster said.... its this kind of attitude which is part of the reason this country is going(gone) to sh1t .... when I was growing up if you fell over and broke an arm - you went to hospital and got on with your life ..... nowadays .... if someone falls over and breaks an arm..... first they look for witnesses, then they look for a solicitor.... its not their fault they fell...its the councils....'cos there was a crack in the ground and I tripped over it.

good luck with that !

dudara

You're unlikely to get anywhere with this. In order to get something you would have to prove

(a) that it was definitely a patch of ice that your wife hit
(b) that she was not contributing to the circumstances (i.e. speeding)
(c) that the council were deliberately negligent with regard to the road (as a previous poster said, you need actual facts and figures to back this up).

TBH, I agree with most posters. If she hit two trees with enough impact to write off the car, it would seem she was travelling too fast. It's a tough break, but a lot of people have damaged their cars over the last few days.

Seth Brundle

dudara wrote: »

(b) that she was not contributing to the circumstances (i.e. speeding)

Just to clarify that whilst she may not have been speeding, she was (through her incident) driving too fast to deal with the prevailing conditions.

coronaextra

Yea its definitely the councils fault alright, you should be able to drive at whatever speed you like.
How the hell are you supposed to know the roads were going to be icy just because its like -8 for the past two weeks???
:pac:

Plates

Wowsers - more public servants and pedants coming out of the woodwork. Didn't realise this was the "stating the obvious" forum.

colm_mcm

Some people aren't aware of the obvious though.

tin79

Plates wrote: »

Wowsers - more public servants and pedants coming out of the woodwork. Didn't realise this was the "stating the obvious" forum.

have to agree with the other posters i am afraid so there is no point in you reacting like that to what they have said. No body was hurt so take your medicine and pay the higher insurance for a few years, thats life and your wife will have to take responsibility for her actions.

wicklowmale

I think after skidding off the road, mounting a foot path and hitting two trees and writing off the car, you would have to be going too fast for the conditions.

Knowing that your wife is still alive would be more important than your insurance premium increases, just have to change a few spending habits if it going to hit u that hard

Incase you wonder, I work in the private sector and have been driving for more than 10 yrs and never crashed my car, only exception been a stupid councellor pulling out in front of me while in a hurry to a meeting. I only received 2 penalty points since they started.

Even now with the bad conditions out on the roads, ppl are driving too fast, no lights on, motorcycles going too fast, kids driving way too powerful cars.

I agree with the minister that L drivers should be limited to 1 litre cars and the engine size should increase with the number of yrs experience as with motor bikes.

Anyway i fed up with little ****s on the road and ppl worried about their cars more than there wives.

I don't care if i get angry replies but the fact it a fact, face up to it.

The Express

The muppets cannot even tarmac roads evenly or fill potholes, no wonder were ballixed when it comes to bad weather.

And with the state of the surfaces, the engineers appear to know as much about vehicle dynamics as the packed of jaffa cakes in my cupboard!:mad::mad:

Gary ITR

Plates wrote: »

Wowsers - more public servants and pedants coming out of the woodwork. Didn't realise this was the "stating the obvious" forum.

Just be thankful you're not making funeral arrangements for your wife or facing an innocent pedestrians family.

If you are not able to drive responsibly in these conditions then don't drive at all. I need to drive to work (Field Sales) but I'm allowing a lot of extra time and taking it fierce handy. I certainly didn't go fast enough over the last few days to write off a car and won't somebody please think of the poor old trees

Gumbo

Plates wrote: »

Wowsers - more public servants and pedants coming out of the woodwork. Didn't realise this was the "stating the obvious" forum.

if your wife drives in the same manner as your attitude, then no wonder she crashed imo.

what on earth has somebodies occupation got to do with your wife and her driving style?

Plates

Ok - I'm bored now - you can all climb down from your high horses before they slip on some ice. Jeez.

Seweryn

wicklowmale wrote: »

I agree with the minister that L drivers should be limited to 1 litre cars and the engine size should increase with the number of yrs experience as with motor bikes.

I think the rules should be more concentrated on the engine power, not the cubic displacement capacity. I drive a 3-litre Diesel engined car and it has only 80hp, so not much more than a 1-litre petrol engined car (which would still accelerate quicker, due to lower weight).
Going back to the topic - from the description of the incident I can only say that the speed of the vehicle was way to fast for the road conditions.

Gumbo

Plates wrote: »

Ok - I'm bored now - you can all climb down from your high horses before they slip on some ice. Jeez.

its your attitude thats annoying people, not what happened to your wife.
people were actually showing sympathy to what happened.

tallaghtoutlaws

Plates wrote: »

Ok - I'm bored now - you can all climb down from your high horses before they slip on some ice. Jeez.

Wait hold on. High Horse? The rest of us call it common sense in fairness. You are the one looking for a reason to pass the book so your insurance wont be more expensive. You come on looking for sympathy and didn't get and now you are telling us to get off our high horses? :rolleyes: Look we are all happy your wife is ok, you should be too.

I have seen a lot of cars slide and crash on gritted roads because of folk not slowing down or adjusting their driving habits to suit the climate. Gritted roads or not they are still icey and dangerous. The grit isn't a magic substance simple as. Grow Up OP.

paddydriver

Plates wrote: »

Ok - I'm bored now - you can all climb down from your high horses before they slip on some ice. Jeez.

Have you climbed down for one second to see that your wife is OK or are you more interested in worrying the car? This is what you pay insurance for - OK, you may lose your NCB, but at least no one has lost their life.

I think you need to rearrange your priorities instead of taking aim at the people pointing them out to you.

TheColl

seems pretty obvious that she was driving too fast, not necessarily breaking the limit (at least i presume nobody would in icy conditions), but certainly too fast in such conditions....

no point looking for a loophole really, just admit that she didn't take enough care and crashed as a result. not the council's fault.

HonalD

Plates wrote: »

Ok - I'm bored now - you can all climb down from your high horses before they slip on some ice. Jeez.

Sounds like you need a doghouse to rest in while the wounds are licked....or something like that

maglite

Think carefully before you go legal as has been hinted. They may come after the wife for distruction of their property and the cost of its repair.

Gumbo

maglite wrote: »

Think carefully before you go legal as has been hinted. They may come after the wife for distruction of their property and the cost of its repair.

this is also true, my friend has been told that the council may come looking for money because of the damage that was caused to the crash barrier of the M2 after her hit and run.

bazz26

There is no proof that gritting would even have prevented black ice on the road. Gritting has pretty limited effects on the weather conditions of the last few weeks.

guil

Seweryn wrote: »

I think the rules should be more concentrated on the engine power, not the cubic displacement capacity. I drive a 3-litre Diesel engined car and it has only 80hp, so not much more than a 1-litre petrol engined car (which would still accelerate quicker, due to lower weight).
Going back to the topic - from the description of the incident I can only say that the speed of the vehicle was way to fast for the road conditions.

bikes are limited on power, on a learner permit ur restricted to 33 bhp or .16kw per kg, ya could get a hayabusa and restrict it on a learner permit

ghostdancer

Plates wrote: »

Wowsers - more public servants and pedants coming out of the woodwork. Didn't realise this was the "stating the obvious" forum.

no, it's the "cry like a baby because your wife is a crap driver" forum.

Seth Brundle

ghostdancer wrote: »

no, it's the "cry like a baby because your wife is a crap driver" forum.

be nice!

Cmar-Ireland

Plates wrote: »

........My wife hit a patch of ice on the Navan Road.....and went up on the pavement and hit 2 trees - writing the car off in the process.....While they were at the scene 3 other cars lost temporary control in the same area.

So three other cars lost temporary control, but your wife mounted the pavement and smashed into two trees???

TBH your wife needs to slow down and pay attention to the conditions. The other motorists lost temporary control of their cars but they didn't crash. Obviously they were driving to suit the conditions and were able to avoid an accident.

marious

people in Ireland live in dreamland, how can You possibly think about blaming council for icy road? think how many roads is in your county including back roads? they becoming icy within...lets say 2 hours in the mourning, so council should have tens thousands of trucks loaded with salt waiting for signal? Joke shortly will blame council for rain as well :)

mikemac

wicklowmale wrote: »

the engine size should increase with the number of yrs experience as with motor bikes.

That's already there, been there for years
When you pass your full A test, you are restricted for two years. True you can buy a 600cc bike but it'll be restricted. It's not just on engine size. I know a model of a 400cc bike that is "learner legal" but others on 250cc that are too powerful

I can't realy add to the what's been said already for the OP. As said already if your wife left the road, smacked two trees and wrote off the car she was clearly going too fast for the poor conditions
Warnings? It was all over the media for the last two weeks..

It's people like you that drive premiums up for everyone else.
Got a few thousand to spare? You'll be throwing it away on a solicitor if you take the council to court

Fishtits

There's a trend here folks. The "I fell on my face so who do I blame" culture.

What happened to personal responsibility? people moan about the invasive Health & Safety regulations yet look to sue the council when they trip on a footpath... eh?

The bankers/politicians/etc caused the recession... Nah.

We are responsible for our own wellbeing.

Grow balls and wear them.

Huumpppf!

the_syco

Plates wrote: »

went up on the pavement and hit 2 trees - writing the car off in the process.

What speed was she going at?

Plates wrote: »

Come to think of it - since you're all so quick to jump to the support of the council - and you can avoid driving - I'm guessing at least of couple of you are public servants?

A few of us are probably sick of people speeding on icy conditions, and loosing control. Lucky she hit a tree, and didn't skid across the otherside (some duel carraigeways only have grass betweent he two lanes) and hit an on coming car filled with children.

Plates wrote: »

Maybe you can suggest how she could have got to work without driving when the nearest public transport leaves her with a 25 minute walk from work - on icy pavements? I will then agree that she shouldn't have ignored the "no driving" warnings.

You have yet to suggest what god given right does she have to drive dangerously?

This is a sign for her to cop on, as next time instead of two tree's, it could be a mother and child that she hits.

colm_mcm

I think every point and every angle has been covered at this stage

jarrod2k

marious wrote: »

people in Ireland live in dreamland, how can You possibly think about blaming council for icy road? think how many roads is in your county including back roads? they becoming icy within...lets say 2 hours in the mourning, so council should have tens thousands of trucks loaded with salt waiting for signal? Joke shortly will blame council for rain as well :)

OK, its my first post but I think a lot of people are missing the point here, we all pay car tax, should we not expect our councils to at least make a effort to keep our roads safe?? most people are paying 500+ euro car tax for in my mind a standard car ...... why are we paying this money?? bad driving conditions for the last 2 week and the aa advise us to stay off the road ... will I get a 2 week car tax refund because the councils cant keep the roads safe because they run out of funds? I don't think so!! I drove from cork to killarney St Stephen's morning @ 8am, no grit, garda or council but the decide to close the killarney - cork road at 11am why 11am? where we're they @ 8am? asleep? I passed at least 50 cars pulled in at the side of the road stranded on the cork side of the county bounds at 8am, I pay 1300euro tax a year and yes its a 4x4 at least I didn't get stranded!!!!