cows not doing well

whelan1

i bought 10 calved pbr holstein fr heifers in august - lovely animals - paid 10000 for the ten , which i thought was a brilliant deal, any way they milked really well for the first couple of months and then 5 of them stopped eating the meal in the parlour , i gave some of them coarse meal which they would eat but they started wasting away got the vet - how was a new vet in the practice - and she said with out even examining them oh thats bvd:eek: she blood tested them - results camr back negative . i dried them off did them for fluke , wormsgave them stimulex , cortisone , chanatol , mineral licks have them being molly coddled , now one of them died yesterday , got vet to them again last week and he thinks that they are just not able for our regime:eek: now i think they could be in a lot worse places , i have no idea what is wrong with them , i would have sent the one that died yesterday for a post mortem but being christas the labs wouldnt take her any ideas

leg wax

whelan1 wrote: »

i bought 10 calved pbr holstein fr heifers in august - lovely animals - paid 10000 for the ten , which i thought was a brilliant deal, any way they milked really well for the first couple of months and then 5 of them stopped eating the meal in the parlour , i gave some of them coarse meal which they would eat but they started wasting away got the vet - how was a new vet in the practice - and she said with out even examining them oh thats bvd:eek: she blood tested them - results camr back negative . i dried them off did them for fluke , wormsgave them stimulex , cortisone , chanatol , mineral licks have them being molly coddled , now one of them died yesterday , got vet to them again last week and he thinks that they are just not able for our regime:eek: now i think they could be in a lot worse places , i have no idea what is wrong with them , i would have sent the one that died yesterday for a post mortem but being christas the labs wouldnt take her any ideas

i was milking a number of years ago with holsteins and came across same problem but not on same scale. two things come to mind bale netting and yew tree poisoning .open up that cow and cheak stomach

whelan1

ye i said to my da would it be ragworth , the fella i bought them off fed them on round bales of silage ... i have good quality silage and maize and they where on a 21% dairy nut . i now know why i got them so cheap:mad:

snowman707

they most likely picked up something from your own herd, to find out what is the problem, if she died from mucosal disease or what ever is the correct term for bvd you would know.. lung infection and scour

we tend to take a wide berth from the holsteins,

pakalasa

I'd go back to the last owner and see what his reaction is. If he looks qenuinely stunned then the problem may be something they picked up in your farm.
I bought sucklers a few years back and I noticed that those that came from farms furthest away (another county) 'went back' the most. I think that there all sort of bugs in an area that cattle build up an immunity over the years.
Give them plenty of meal, bed them on straw away from the rest of the herd and get that autopsy done.

dar31

had one like that in the spring, went dry after 2 months, and kept fading away eventually kealed over. vet said it was fluke even though she was fluked numerious time. damage to liver had been done before treatment, and slowly killed her.we would never fluke any thing except 20 or so that look scoury. the list is endless as to what it could be. firstly id do a full blood work up on them, asap in case they brought any thing to the herd, i think from previous posts you have contact with the vet collage, talk nice to them and see if they would investigate it. the bvd test was it the expensive one that picks up p i 's. were they bought in the mart or from farmer, if farmer did you find out the herds disease status before buying, if mart then your stone mad, no offense;)
pb hfs for e1000 each, there had to be some thing wrong with them.
was getting 1750 for hfs a while ago could have sold any no. of them we run a closed herd and it makes them easier to sell
ketosis was the first to come to mind, but dont tihk so now.
your system of production would have very little to do with it.
i prusume the diet is well balanced. 21% sounds low with maize, were feeding 24% with one third maize dm

whelan1

getting very little maize tbh , we are looking to see when the vet college opens up again , bought them off my cousin:eek: they have very good breeding and couldnt understand how he was selling them so cheap , he had embryos in them

pakalasa

...sounds like your cousin has the answer!

whelan1

ye , just waiting for pm results and will see where i will go from there

greysides

Something to consider. Ask your vet about it.

http://www.farmersjournal.ie/2009/1031/farmmanagement/dairy/feature.shtml

We have reports of a new type of fluke in cows this autumn called rumen fluke - do you have any information on it?
Paramphistomum spp. is commonly known as rumen fluke. The adults live in the rumen or first stomach and the immature stages in the duodenum. The pathogenic affect of these rumen fluke is associated with the immature stages in the intestines.
The young rumen fluke attaches to the gut mucosa, and they cause severe erosion of the gut lining. The adults in the rumen are well tolerated. A large burden of the immature stages of rumen fluke is associated with diarrhoea and pining.
The Regional Vet Labs report that in the course of their post-mortem examinations of cattle, rumen fluke have been encountered with increasing frequency in recent years.
Is it possible to detect the difference between normal liver fluke and this new rumen liver fluke?
The 'new' fluke is not a liver fluke. Yes, it is possible to detect the differences between these two species. The normal liver fluke will be found in the liver and bile ducts of the affected animal, while rumen fluke immature stages will be found in the intestines and the adults in the rumen.
Upon close examination, the two species look quite different. Liver fluke are leaf shaped, flat and 2cm to 3cm long. Rumen fluke are conical, maggot-like and have a pink colour. Examination of the faeces shows eggs from both species that are slightly different.
Will the normal flukicides kill this new rumen fluke?
Oxyclozanide (Zanil) is one of the few treatments effective against the rumen flukes.

boredboard

not sure if this is much help... heard a similar story years ago and what was happening was the cows were licking some machinery paint they passed everyday and were slowly being poisoned... hope u get to root of problem, best of luck

whelan1

thanks , these animals are from a farm beside the sea so the ground wouldnt be wet at all will say it to vet about the rumen fluke will get back to yis after he does the pm:o

foundation10

You say these came from land near the sea, was this sand dune type land?, if so then I would be wary of animals continually grazing this type of land and then moving to "normal" soil.

irish_bob

whelan1 wrote: »

i bought 10 calved pbr holstein fr heifers in august - lovely animals - paid 10000 for the ten , which i thought was a brilliant deal, any way they milked really well for the first couple of months and then 5 of them stopped eating the meal in the parlour , i gave some of them coarse meal which they would eat but they started wasting away got the vet - how was a new vet in the practice - and she said with out even examining them oh thats bvd:eek: she blood tested them - results camr back negative . i dried them off did them for fluke , wormsgave them stimulex , cortisone , chanatol , mineral licks have them being molly coddled , now one of them died yesterday , got vet to them again last week and he thinks that they are just not able for our regime:eek: now i think they could be in a lot worse places , i have no idea what is wrong with them , i would have sent the one that died yesterday for a post mortem but being christas the labs wouldnt take her any ideas

always find it obnoxious when a vet or whoever ( previous owner ) says your regime doesnt suit those animals , sounds like you pulled out all the stops in looking after them , IMO , bought in animals more often than not give trouble

Figerty

There is an old saying here,,, never buy cattle from beside the sea. I live near ennis and it has always been said that Cattle from Mullagh will never thrive on the wet land around ennis. This comes from generations of knowledge passed on, and something I would respect. I suppose it comes from Fair days in the past where there was short movements of cattle within walking distance.

Return the cows to home. See if they recover and if they do get rid of them.

I saw a neighbours cow, last year, calve, dry up and loose weight to become a bag of bones. This cow was well fed; vet looked visited, eventually Coffeys had to be called. It is possible it is Johns (check spelling) Diesease. This was mentioned in the Journal last year.

whelan1

with johnes they would be scouring also vet says they are too young for it :rolleyes:

whelan1

the first vet that came out really annoyed me i asked her to handle a cow that was supposed to be 8 months in calf -was scanned in calf - and she said she didnt know if she was in calf also asked her to look at these 5 - i call them camels as they have a hump in their backs, she didnt even listen to their stomachs etc just blood tested them for bvd she was also and hour and a half late i think some of them have their heads in the clouds and its a wonder how they qualify at all

greysides

whelan1 wrote: »

with johnes they would be scouring also vet says they are too young for it :rolleyes:

I think they scour badly with bad rumen fluke also.

Could they have picked up foreign bodies along the sea? Plastic bags, rope/cord?

whelan1

none of them are scouring if anything its the opposite

dar31

stick a magnet in to each of them just in case it is foreign object no harm done if not
your right a bout some vets being useless. the vet collage dose our fertility, some of the students, which are meant to be in final year, haven't a clue, id know more than some of them. its very rare for one to know how to handle move a cow around yard. only about 1 in 10 actually have an interest in large animals the rest will go straight to small animal practice. its a pitty the medical aptitude test was nt applied to veterinary as well

Figerty

This is a nightmare for any farmer. Watching animals suffer without knowing why. You are right about some vets...you only 40% to pass some exams...Do we every ask a vet what grade of degree they got?

Time to get a second opinon from another vet practice before it is too late?

pakalasa

Figerty wrote: »

There is an old saying here,,, never buy cattle from beside the sea. I live near ennis and it has always been said that Cattle from Mullagh will never thrive on the wet land around ennis.

What about cattle from the Burren, places like Kilnaboy and Carron. The best store cattle in the country, in my opinion. They thrive like hell when they get going. They always seem healthy, down to the limestone & other minerals, I know. But there are other things at play also like little fluke, redwater etc.
On the other side of things the advice around these parts (also Clare) is not to buy cattle from Co Limerick, too well fed and no way as hardy.;)

Figerty

Indeed the cattle up North Clare are renowned for their quality. But I think coming from the sandy soils of west clare does seem to cause difficulty for some cattle. I have no idea why, but history and local knowledge has this opinion.

scaniaman

Did the vet listen to their stomachs.I'm familiar with the symtoms you describe.
I have very high yeilding cows and get a lot of this kind of trouble you have to rule out a displaced abomasum though your cows are probably calved too long for this it affects the cows left side or a dilated cetum on the right side which can happen any time. The cows will have no appetite will lose weight fast will pass no dung or if they do pass dung its like tar.We tried everything to solve it
coffee,stimulex,a drive in the cowbox the only thing to solve it is an operation
nearly always a success. Your vet seemed very lax BVD is blamed for almost every complaint one of the first signs of it is a high cell count that no matter what cant be controlled.Get a second opinion on those cows asap best of luck i know all about the mental and financial stress that goes with these problems.

snowman707

scaniaman wrote: »

Did the vet listen to their stomachs.I'm familiar with the symtoms you describe.
I have very high yeilding cows and get a lot of this kind of trouble you have to rule out a displaced abomasum though your cows are probably calved too long for this it affects the cows left side or a dilated cetum on the right side which can happen any time. The cows will have no appetite will lose weight fast will pass no dung or if they do pass dung its like tar.We tried everything to solve it
coffee,stimulex,a drive in the cowbox the only thing to solve it is an operation
nearly always a success. Your vet seemed very lax BVD is blamed for almost every complaint one of the first signs of it is a high cell count that no matter what cant be controlled.Get a second opinion on those cows asap best of luck i know all about the mental and financial stress that goes with these problems.

We had a couple (4 in total) of cases of this last spring, we operated on 1 , rolled 2 , be careful if you attempt this as a falling 700 kgs cow will do a lot of harm if you get in her way . on coffee and stomach powders for a week and all 4 recovered

Likewise I thought that the animals were too long calved but pushing them with 21% nuts in august you would never know.

whelan1

they are eating silage and passing dung , the other vet in the practice listened to their stomachs he is a class vet and never misses a trick - not like the other younger vet . will be interesting to see what ucd will come up with

whelan1

quick post vet just rang 100% its ragworth

whelan1

vet said normally you could run your finger through a cows liver at that age - she was 31 months but he found it hard to get the knife through it ... he said it takes months to take effect and chances are the rest will die too , just took another one out today - so 6 out of ten are showing symptoms

snowman707

whelan1 wrote: »

vet said normally you could run your finger through a cows liver at that age - she was 31 months but he found it hard to get the knife through it ... he said it takes months to take effect and chances are the rest will die too , just took another one out today - so 6 out of ten are showing symptoms

have never seen ragwort poising (keeping sheep we haven't ever had ragwort)

sorry for your problem OP .. 2009 was tough enough without having this to cope with.

pakalasa

'Whelan1', sorry to hear that.
Do you think it was ragwort they picked up in silage or at grass?
It's just that I've never seen cattle eat ragwort while at grass. I don't think it's palitable to them.

whelan1

previous owner fed alot of round bales of silage so i assume that is where they picked it up

The_Conductor

whelan1 wrote: »

with johnes they would be scouring also vet says they are too young for it :rolleyes:

Johnes can present in different ways- if its at the stage that there is an actual obstruction- there would be no faeces at all.

greysides

I've never heard of obstruction being a sign of Johne's Disease. I believe they scour themselves to death.

Maybe you're thinking of Ragwort Poisoning -they could be either scouring or constipated.

The_Conductor

greysides wrote: »

I've never heard of obstruction being a sign of Johne's Disease. I believe they scour themselves to death.

Maybe you're thinking of Ragwort Poisoning -they could be either scouring or constipated.

When its advanced you can actually get total blockages in the intestinal tract- which will cause the animal to stop eating/drinking altogether- and can kill very quickly.

There are similar diseases in sheep- and Crohn's Disease in people is the human equivalent.

whelan1

got another one put down today - knackery are going to have a look at her liver for me - vet said other animal had no sign of fluke or worms

dar31

previous owner must of had a serious ragwort problem.
not nice losing cows like that, and not being able to do anything for them.
they ended up being very expensive cheap cows:o

whelan1

yup rang him today vet said it takes months for it to take effect i only got them in august and they started getting sick in october and none of my cows are sick

Figerty

I'm very sorry to hear about the cows. Is there any hope of a cure.

Second thing struck me. The farm you bought them from must have been feeding them the same bales. How are his cows doing?

whelan1

he has sold on most of their comrades - no cure for ragworth posioning im afraid

johngalway

That's some kick in the teeth, sorry for your troubles Whelan. I hope 2010 will be a better year for you. Worst thing about farming seeing things like that happen to an animal.

whelan1

ye , never a dull moment here but theres always some one worse off than yourself

who the fug

Sorry about your news, at least you know what happened.

whelan1

knackery man rang me last night the second cows liver was the same as the first one - previous owner wanted me to send some of them to ucd - dont see much point now

vanderbadger

feck thats a tough one, sorry to read about that whelan

whelan1

update 4 cows have died and all their livers where rotten ragworth got them all! have 2 more that will die and 1 that is borderline so have 3 out of ten ok... previous owner not very helpful but i am of the opinion that it will all unfold with time

vanderbadger

whelan1 wrote: »

update 4 cows have died and all their livers where rotten ragworth got them all! have 2 more that will die and 1 that is borderline so have 3 out of ten ok... previous owner not very helpful but i am of the opinion that it will all unfold with time

messy, did you say this chap was family? did he loose any of his own, maybe he was feeding bought silage?

whelan1

he said he didnt but time frame is i bought them in the middle of august and they started getting sick end of october / early november - ragworth takes 4-6 months to kill/show signs so there in lies my case . he says he has no sick animals i have 140 other milking cows and none of them are sick , will just have to wait and see , he sells off all after they calve as he just has embryoes in them

whelan1

got word from barrister today - after 3 months:D - i have a case against the previous owner yipee

Indubitable

What is your cousin saying about this?

Good luck.

whelan1

not his problem or so he says .... the fact none of my animals have died is the main factor and also that 80% of the ones i bought died is a real give away;)

leg wax

whelan1 wrote: »

not his problem or so he says .... the fact none of my animals have died is the main factor and also that 80% of the ones i bought died is a real give away;)

a family going to court hurts a lot of people i really hope you can come to some agreemeant a split family is going to cost more in the long run than the dead cows,