Gas Boiler Problem

nkay1985

Hi Guys,

Posted here before and you were all very helpful so hoping you can help me again!

I just came home from work at 08:30 and switched the heating on for an hour. After a while I noticed that I didn't hear the boiler firing so lifted down the cover of the facia panel to check it out. I had a flashing light which, upon consulting the legend, turns out to be the "flame failure or blocked condensate drain" indicator. Section 3.3 of this document.

I switched off timer that was requesting the heat, reset the boiler and tried again. It sounds like it's goign through its normal firing sequence but after 30 seconds or a minute, it cuts out and the light comes on.

What could be my issue here? Is it anything to do with the cold? Is it anyway likely that it'll be magically working when I wake up this afternoon! Forgot to add, it's a Baxi boiler and it's just about a year old, in case that makes any difference.

If anybody can offer some advice, I'd really apreciate it. Money's a bit tight so calling out an engineer is something I'd rather not do!

Thanks,
NKay.

nkay1985

Can anyone help me out at all or is this something that needs to be seen by a gas plumber?

yoshytoshy

Your condense is frozen ,dont fire the boiler you might damage it

nkay1985

yoshytoshy wrote: »

Your condense is frozen ,dont fire the boiler you might damage it

Ok. So is that the pipe that goes through the wall to the outside? What's the best way to deal with this?

steamengine

nkay1985 wrote: »

Ok. So is that the pipe that goes through the wall to the outside? What's the best way to deal with this?

A hairdryer, or a fan heater at or near the condensate pipe should do the trick for you. Assuming that it is a frozen condensate pipe.

nkay1985

steamengine wrote: »

A hairdryer, or a fan heater at or near the condensate pipe should do the trick for you. Assuming that it is a frozen condensate pipe.

So am I correct in thinking that this is the pipe that goes outside? The one that usually emits steam? My one is about 6-7 feet up the exterior wall.

steamengine

If when the boiler is running, steam emits from that pipe, then that should be it. You should see evidence of ice now also. No harm to gently heat it (as above) with a hairdryer and see if that sorts it out for you. Also check the temperature is above freezing in the room where the boiler is. If not raise the temp of the room using a fan heater for an hour or so.

nkay1985

steamengine wrote: »

If when the boiler is running, steam emits from that pipe, then that should be it. You should see evidence of ice now also. No harm to gently heat it (as above) with a hairdryer and see if that sorts it out for you. Also check the temperature is above freezing in the room where the boiler is. If not raise the temp of the room using a fan heater for an hour or so.

Yeah the boiler is in the kitchen so it's definitely above freezing. I'll give the hairdryer a go and see hwo I get on. Thanks.

nkay1985

Ok. So I've tried putting the hairdryer on the pipe and trying the boiler again but I'm still getting the same issue.

I'm wondering if I'm using the hairdryer correctly though. Am I supposed to use it on the exterior of the pipe or the interior? Where should I see the ice? I have a load of photos taken of the outside pipe and also a video of the problem with the boiler but nothing will upload.

steamengine

nkay1985 wrote: »

Ok. So I've tried putting the hairdryer on the pipe and trying the boiler again but I'm still getting the same issue.

I'm wondering if I'm using the hairdryer correctly though. Am I supposed to use it on the exterior of the pipe or the interior? Where should I see the ice? I have a load of photos taken of the outside pipe and also a video of the problem with the boiler but nothing will upload.

First, I am assuming the condensate is piped to the outside, so you are looking for a pipe about 1" inch or less diam. The second assumption is that this problem has only occurred simultanously with the current "Freeze". Apply heat to the outside of the drain pipe. Try to figure out the likely place for water to accumulate in the pipe. Also ensure the whole unit is above 5 deg C, as according to your info frost protection is built in.

nkay1985

steamengine wrote: »

First, I am assuming the condensate is piped to the outside, so you are looking for a pipe about 1" inch or less diam. The second assumption is that this problem has only occurred simultanously with the current "Freeze". Apply heat to the outside of the drain pipe. Try to figure out the likely place for water to accumulate in the pipe. Also ensure the whole unit is above 5 deg C, as according to your info frost protection is built in.

The pipe I'm dealing with must be the wrong one, I think as the diameter of the one I'm looking at is about 3".

This is the pipe I've been dealing with and this is the video of what happens with the boiler.

yoshytoshy

Does your boiler normally look like this ?

Have it inspected by a gas installer ,we're not all bad.

steamengine

nkay1985 wrote: »

The pipe I'm dealing with must be the wrong one, I think as the diameter of the one I'm looking at is about 3".

This is the pipe I've been dealing with and this is the video of what happens with the boiler.

Definitely not that pipe, that's the combined exhaust/air intake. Its a smaller diameter, about an inch - if it's there at all ! Also re-read the manual re the frost protection, that could be an issue if the whole unit is below 5 deg. C. ie. kitchen is very cold.

nkay1985

yoshytoshy wrote: »

Does your boiler normally look like this ?

Have it inspected by a gas installer ,we're not all bad.

No, I removed the cover to take a look at what was going on.

steamengine wrote: »

Definitely not that pipe, that's the combined exhaust/air intake. Its a smaller diameter, about an inch - if it's there at all ! Also re-read the manual re the frost protection, that could be an issue if the whole unit is below 5 deg. C. ie. kitchen is very cold.

Right, I'll do that. I presume the condensate must exist seeing as it namechecks it in the legend explaining the faults. I'll take a look.

I'd be very surprised if the kitchen was below 5 deg C to be honest.


My mother phoned the guy who services her gas and that and he said that as it's only there a year, it should be under warranty for another six months. Ay idea if this is true?

yoshytoshy

nkay1985 wrote: »

My mother phoned the guy who services her gas and that and he said that as it's only there a year, it should be under warranty for another six months. Ay idea if this is true?

Yes ,12 months by the manufacturer as long as the installation is done correctly.
You need to go through your isntaller though.

nkay1985

This is a picture of the whole setup. Would it be the white plastic pipe that is running down underneath the cabinet? Does the pipe I'm looking for make its way to a normal waste pipe or drain?

I'm sorry for all the questions but if you guys can help me sort this it'll make my Christmas!!!

steamengine

nkay1985 wrote: »

This is a picture of the whole setup. Would it be the white plastic pipe that is running down underneath the cabinet? Does the pipe I'm looking for make its way to a normal waste pipe or drain?

I'm sorry for all the questions but if you guys can help me sort this it'll make my Christmas!!!

I'll simplify it. Look for a pipe of that diameter, outside. If you find it apply gentle heat. That's all you can do really !!!

Neil_Sedaka

I know very little about this kind of thing, as will be evident from the following questions.

Is it a sealed system? and if so, is there enough pressure in the system?

Dial should read about 1 bar, when the system is cold.

If the pressure is low, you have to top it up, by means of a filler valve (a kind of flexible steel pipe, with a valve attached, mine is located in the hot press)

Apologies if I'm barking up the wrong tree altogether, but I was left without any heat last Christmas, trying to keep two young kids warm, so I feel your pain.

Hope you get it sorted soon.

nkay1985

Well after the help I've gotten here and consulting the manual, I've figured out that it's definitely the condensate not draining anyway. I looked through the manual and found what is the condensate trap. It was so full it was basically overflowing. I also found the drain pipe it uses outside and used the hairdryer on it but that didn't do anything. So I can only conclude that there's no flow somewhere between the condensate trap and the drain pipe outside.

My only problem now is whether that issue is for the builder's plumber or the gas installer! I'm hoping the builders are still on site tomorrow morning when I get home from work.

The builder employed the installer, so the builder would have a interest in getting it put to bed, in respect of the fault the buck stops with the installer/manufactures depending on the fault.

nkay1985

Just an update to say I managed to sort it myself. I dismantled the drain pipe outside and could see maybe one eighth of an inch of solid ice at the bottom of the pipe. I melted it away fromoutside and also from inside, behind the sink.

Once the condensate trap had emptied a bit I fired the boiler and it worked away without any issue. I then gave the pipe another go with the hairdryer and this caused another little chunk or two of ice to come out.

My guess the angle from behind the sink to the outside was far too shallow; it was almost flat. So I raised that up a bit to give it more flow when there is condensate flowing. The condensate trap is now bone dry and there is a constant drip of condensate going into the drain outside.

Sincere thanks to everyone who helped and offered advice.

steamengine

Nice bit of diagnostic work there ! And the main thing is the heat is back on !

nkay1985

steamengine wrote: »

Nice bit of diagnostic work there ! And the main thing is the heat is back on !

Ah yeah it'd be a shame to let that engineering brain go completely to waste. :P

And, yeah, I was very appreciativeof waking up to a warm house a few minutes ago!

If you get any more icing in the future, by increasing the diameter of the condense pipe outside you can reduce the chances of ice forming, Gary.

items

gary71 wrote: »

If you get any more icing in the future, by increasing the diameter of the condense pipe outside you can reduce the chances of ice forming, Gary.

Only for boiler being a condensate, would not of have had prob. First Gas boiler suffering from cold outside temp I've seen so far.

I notice a lot of people fear Gas, might have Gas main outside but still use Oil for fear of Gas, few might change minds after reading boards this week.

Unfortunately because installers tend to fit inadequate external condense pipe the boilers can be prone to locking out when they are needed the most.

Baxi ask for 22 mm inside and increased to 32mm outside with a continuous fall, on my boilers it's a minimum of 22mm outside and the plastic pipe must be lagged, maximum length 3 meters for both.

Do this and their is no problems , these boilers can produce a lot of condense, liters+ a hour so it's not hard for the pipe to block, you pay all that money and have a boiler that's prone to breaking when it's cold:(, sad but true, Gary.

items

gary71 wrote: »

Unfortunately because installers tend to fit inadequate external condense pipe the boilers can be prone to locking out when they are needed the most.

Baxi ask for 22 mm inside and increased to 32mm outside with a continuous fall, on my boilers it's a minimum of 22mm outside and the plastic pipe must be lagged, maximum length 3 meters for both.

Do this and their is no problems , these boilers can produce a lot of condense, liters+ a hour so it's not hard for the pipe to block, you pay all that money and have a boiler that's prone to breaking when it's cold:(, sad but true, Gary.

Goes to show how important condensate drain is. I find some drains piped in the same lazy attitude you see with many safety's, after all the hard work is done, some do find the above two as nothing special, not to much attention needed with those and so on, both are prob if not most important and require most attention but you know yourself, Ireland.

Called out to Chinese restaurant, condensate boiler down, drain was piped into a 4 ltr drum, over flowing onto floor, next to freezer.

With RGI, if you noticed this type of installation do you have to do a report cert, send in etc?

Makes good rice:)

items

gary71 wrote: »

Makes good rice:)

Never tried rice soaked with sulfuric acid, few people in the above Chinese prob did.

Just added a question after thinking of it, whats the deal with RGI after you witness an instillation like above?

Last man on job is responsible for line during my days with Gas, any change now with RGI?

nkay1985

gary71 wrote: »

If you get any more icing in the future, by increasing the diameter of the condense pipe outside you can reduce the chances of ice forming, Gary.

Yeah I couldn't believe that the last section of the pipe had basically no drop at all on it; it was always going to ice up!

I called out to a boiler that had been fitted 2 years ago, there was a big mystery to why the boiler was not working, Bord Gais finest couldn't sort it.

It turned out the installer had hidden the condense pipe behind the boiler and put a little hole in it, so the condense slowly dripped down the back of the wall, condense would back up in to the boiler locking it out, then drain away, i cut the boiler off and wrote it up as a hazardous installation because the condense was dripping on to the gas pipe and i couldn't vouch for the integrity of the pipe.

To answer your question every competent engineer who stood in front of the boiler is liable, in the situation you had as the fault didn't meet manufactures instruction therefore not fitted to is 813 standards, it would be the last engineer, it's all relative to the hazard, but it best to treat everything like the first example and don't leave anything behind, Gary.

items

gary71 wrote: »

I called out to a boiler that had been fitted 2 years ago, there was a big mystery to why the boiler was not working, Bord Gais finest couldn't sort it.

It turned out the installer had hidden the condense pipe behind the boiler and put a little hole in it, so the condense slowly dripped down the back of the wall, condense would back up in to the boiler locking it out, then drain away, i cut the boiler off and wrote it up as a hazardous installation because the condense was dripping on to the gas pipe and i couldn't vouch for the integrity of the pipe.

To answer your question every competent engineer who stood in front of the boiler is liable, in the situation you had as the fault didn't meet manufactures instruction therefore not fitted to is 813 standards, it would be the last engineer, it's all relative to the hazard, but it best to treat everything like the first example and don't leave anything behind, Gary.

Cheers so still same, break out the u gauge before doing anything.

Problem is still there I guess, fitters can go on fitting, leaving the mistakes down to the next man. When RGI came out I was happy about news, now I know more about it, same old, Gas provider wanting more money, nothing about better quality works or better safety.

You are responsible for every aspect of that boiler instillation and every gas appliance fitted in that property(if you put a teast on), if thats not a reason for paranoia then i don't know what is.

The one thing they got right in this country, is to put someone in prison for messing with gas is very, very easy for the powers that be, so we've gone from no regs to regs that have more power than the UK, and the fruitloops don't realize it.

The powers that be have made a statement that they will not hesitate to inprison someone if it is required, and they are waiting for RGII to settle down before they start looking for candidates, Gary.

items

gary71 wrote: »

You are responsible for every aspect of that boiler instillation and every gas appliance fitted in that property(if you put a teast on), if thats not a reason for paranoia then i don't know what is.

The one thing they got right in this country, is to put someone in prison for messing with gas is very, very easy for the powers that be, so we've gone from no regs to regs that have more power than the UK, and the fruitloops don't realize it.

The powers that be have made a statement that they will not hesitate to inprison someone if it is required, and they are waiting for RGII to settle down before they start looking for candidates, Gary.

That's right, all appliances, cookers hobs, gas fire's everything. Quick pressure test, anything thats leaking, cut off supply, write out cert, charge customer to have it fixed on top of work you where there for. Write out new soundness cert after jobs done.

I was considering going RGI, RGII route, just hadn't time nor money for it, got enough G1's and 2's to still stay in loop at some level. Few in same situation, just have to pay fees to have works certified, responsibility changes then, it's on the one who receives fee, Bord Gas.

Works out good, Gas works slim on ground where I am so overall same old same.

Prisons are full, too many people not paying tv licence, looks like fruit loops are safe for now, not to long I hope.