Opening a Pharmacy Advice

Entrepreneur???

I'm thinking of opening a pharmacy in my local village as there is a need for one. I'm not a pharmacist. Does anyone have any knowledge of the pharmacy business? Pitfalls etc? I also need to find a pharmacist, would a pharmacist be interested in working in a completely new business? I don't even know where to go looking for a pharmacist to see if any are interested?

locum-motion

Entrepreneur??? wrote: »

... Does anyone have any knowledge of the pharmacy business? Pitfalls etc? ...

I do.
But I'm not about to share that knowledge with a randomer on the internet.
Sorry.

SomeDose

Entrepreneur??? wrote: »

I'm thinking of opening a pharmacy in my local village as there is a need for one. I'm not a pharmacist. Does anyone have any knowledge of the pharmacy business? Pitfalls etc? I also need to find a pharmacist, would a pharmacist be interested in working in a completely new business? I don't even know where to go looking for a pharmacist to see if any are interested?

Let me get this straight:
You're not a pharmacist.
You have no knowledge of community pharmacy.
You want to open and run a pharmacy business in perhaps the worst ever climate for community pharmacists in Ireland.

Here's my advice, and I suspect I won't be the only one to say this:
Forget it.

angeldelight

I 100% echo what SomeDose said... It's a really really bad time and the first thing you'd have to do is pay a pharmacist for every minute the pharmacy is open and you wouldn't know if what they were doing was at all correct

anotherlostie

I prefer to be helpful :rolleyes:

Considering how low pharmacist wages have fallen, maybe it would be viable with a sound business plan. Is there a GP in the village? If not, forget it. And if everyone has to go to the nearest town for their grocery shop, they will be used to getting their prescriptions there and will likely continue to. I know a pharmacy that opened in a Dublin suburb five years ago and most of the folk who live there continue to go to the pharmacies they always went to.

In addition, fees paid to pharmacists have dropped considerably this year, making the business a lot less viable (and contributing to the falling wages). For this reason alone, it would be a very risky venture.

Incidentally there are many many pharmacies in Ireland owned by non pharmacists, or the companies that they are directors of.

Personally I think that today a new gift shop or newsagents would be more profitable than a new pharmacy!

Entrepreneur???

As i said in my earlier post i was thinking of opening a pharmacy. I was made redundant a few weeks ago and i'm just sounding out some ideas about possible business ventures. Sorry for my ignorance re the pharmacy business. I haven't properly researched the idea but i was hoping for some constructive advice even if it was negative. A lot of people in my area have to travel 10km+ to get to the nearest chemist. I have a pharmacist friend who thought the initial albeit basic idea i had was feasible enough because there is a GP and supermarket in the village so maybe it might work. I'm not wishing to make a huge profit to be honest. I'm just looking to make a wage and to be honest be employed. I suppose i really wanted to know if there are many pharmacists willing to get involved in such a venture. Maybe the business forum might be the place for my post, sorry.

Ausone

I think I read somewhere that there have been about 30 pharmacy closures this year. Since then I saw a few liquidations of pharmacies in high profile locations (O'Connell st, Dublin amongst them).


From a business point of view, if you are on an internet bulletin board asking about opening a pharmacy, I think you need to do a little more research.

What's the population of the village?
How far is the nearest pharmacy?
Are there any doctors in the village?
Are they dispensing doctors?

In answer to your questions...

Does anyone have any knowledge of the pharmacy business?
Yes, I do, others also, mostly pharmacists though.

Pitfalls etc?
I would say not knowing what you are doing is a biggie


I also need to find a pharmacist, would a pharmacist be interested in working in a completely new business?
If you were going to pay them, then I'd say yes, they would be interested.


I don't even know where to go looking for a pharmacist to see if any are interested?
Why would you not get in touch with the pharmacy union's magazine.

www.ipu.ie would have details.

RobFowl

It's certainly an opportunity.
The existing model of pharmacy in Ireland has been torn apart by Mata Harney.
Some times a new entrant with no emotional and existing links ti it might be able to more clearly work out how profitable it might become.
Rents are much lower, if there is no GP in the town approaching some to see if they would be interested is setting up if you provided the premisis. (a rule of thumb 1 FTE GP needs 2000 patients to have a viable practice, so there would need to be at least that number of potential patients available).

You;d have to thouraghly research it though.
Most of the pharmacies going out of business were set up dependent on th previous fee structure and tied into high rent contracts.
A new entrant who sorted out these issues cold do well, although the mega-money earning's pharmacists are percieved to have earned are not available.

Delancey

locum-motion wrote: »

I do.
But I'm not about to share that knowledge with a randomer on the internet.
Sorry.

Well aren't you great ? A childish and unhelpful reply if ever I saw one....

locum-motion

delancey42 wrote: »

Well aren't you great ? A childish and unhelpful reply if ever I saw one....

Well, sorry about that. Allow me to edit myself slightly:

I'm not about to give my time and my hard-won expertise - for free - to some randomer on the internet who wants to set up business in my profession even though he knows nothing about it, and in which he may well be competing against my family, my friends and/or my colleagues.

If he wishes to purchase my advice, then that would be a different story.

My first reply wasn't childish. It was brief. It said exactly the same as the second one, but required less of my time.

Delancey

locum-motion wrote: »

Well, sorry about that. Allow me to edit myself slightly:

I'm not about to give my time and my hard-won expertise - for free - to some randomer on the internet who wants to set up business in my profession even though he knows nothing about it, and in which he may well be competing against my family, my friends and/or my colleagues.

If he wishes to purchase my advice, then that would be a different story.

My first reply wasn't childish. It was brief. It said exactly the same as the second one, but required less of my time.

Thanks for the clarification , your position is totally understandable given that is your line of business.

OP - I have no direct knowledge of the pharmacy business but I do have family involved in it , one of my relatives has abandoned her plans to open her own Pharmacy citing HSE cuts to pharmacists payments and the general downturn. She recently said anyone planning to open a new pharmacy in the current business environment '' needs their head examined '' - she considers herself fortunate not to have taken the plunge during the ' boom' times and is very grateful she stayed working in the non-retail area. Just my 2 cents worth :rolleyes:

Nonoperational

I see no problem with someone asking for advise like that. You basically need the premesis, stock, staff and need to comply with the regulatory requirements set down by the PSI. You need a supervising pharmacist (needs to have 3 years experience thats the only requirement for that), and possibly one counter assistant or technician. Your still talking 60k ish for a supervising pharmacist. Probably 20-30k for the other member of staff depending of experience etc. The major wholesalers should be approachable about getting stock and some offer assistance etc. You need to get onto them about that when you have a solid business plan. There has to be a shop fit then which is expensive too.

As for regulatory requirements you need to have a registered pharmacist with 3 years experience as I said, then you need to register the retail pharmacy business. The fees etc are in the Pharmcy act 2007 if you want to have a read! You'll have no problem getting a supervising pharmacist.

Thats a very basic and incomplete overview of what your looking at. Good luck to you if you go for it. Give me a shout if you have anymore questions I'll try have a bash at them if I can.

locum-motion

RobFowl wrote: »

...if there is no GP in the town approaching some to see if they would be interested is setting up if you provided the premisis...

I guess you must be unaware of the Pharmacy Act 2007, which is
"AN ACT TO MAKE NEW PROVISION FOR THE REGULATION OF PHARMACY ...AND TO PREVENT PHARMACISTS, PHARMACY OWNERS AND MEDICAL PRACTITIONERS FROM ENTERING INTO CERTAIN INAPPROPRIATE RELATIONSHIPS; ..."

(Excerpt from the title page of the Act, retrieved from www.irishstatutebook.ie, and with the emphasis in red added by me.)

RobFowl

locum-motion wrote: »

I guess you must be unaware of the Pharmacy Act 2007, which is
"AN ACT TO MAKE NEW PROVISION FOR THE REGULATION OF PHARMACY ...AND TO PREVENT PHARMACISTS, PHARMACY OWNERS AND MEDICAL PRACTITIONERS FROM ENTERING INTO CERTAIN INAPPROPRIATE RELATIONSHIPS; ..."

(Excerpt from the title page of the Act, retrieved from www.irishstatutebook.ie, and with the emphasis in red added by me.)

That section prevents pharmacists employing GP's and GP's employing pharmacists, but within limits does not prevent them sharing the same or adjecant buildings.

Ausone

No case have been taken against either pharmacists or doctors under those sections of the Pharmacy Act 2007. We don't know how the PSI, other regulatory bodies, or the court will interpret the law.

So bearing that and the fact I am not a lawyer, or judge for that matter.

Here's my 2 cents...

Those sections were constructed to stop improper relationships between doctors and pharmacists, improper, where they could defraud the state or the patient.

It is trying to stop doctors directing patients to a particular pharmacy if they benefit financially, and vice versa.

I don't think it assumes employment as an improper relationship. eg a doctor employing a pharmacist to assist with drug cost containment (theoretical I know).

RobFowl

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2007/en/act/pub/0020/sec0063.html

(4) For the purposes of this section, an interest consisting of the ownership of a medical practice or registered retail pharmacy business (or part thereof)—

(a) is not to be taken to be a beneficial interest in the practice or business if the benefit deriving from the interest consists of the benefit of ownership alone, but

(b) is to be taken to be a beneficial interest in the practice or business if the benefit so deriving consists of or includes a financial benefit accruing to the registered pharmacist or registered medical practitioner in the exercise of his or her profession as such or, as the case may be, to the owner of the registered retail pharmacy business in his, her or its capacity as such.



Thats a direct quote but my interpretation is that it is considered misconduct if the pharmacist used ownership or influence to affect the medical independence of the doctor.
( There was supposed to be a similar part in the new medical practitioners act to provide the same safe guard for pharmacists).
TBH it's fairly wooly and as Ausone stated does not directly prevent a pharmacist employing a doctor.

Ausone

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2007/en/act/pub/0020/sec0064.html

Section is also relevant
Prohibitions on carrying on retail pharmacy businesses and medical practices together and on improper recommendations.

64.— (1) A registered retail pharmacy business and a medical practice shall not be carried on—
(a) in the same premises as each other, or
(b) in premises which, although separate—
(i) are such that public access to the one is available only by way of the other, or
(ii) share a common public entrance with each other,
if there is an arrangement of the kind described in subsection (2).
(2) An arrangement is of the kind referred to in subsection (1) if it—
(a) is between the owner of the registered retail pharmacy business referred to in that subsection or the registered pharmacist in whole-time charge of that business and a registered medical practitioner practising in the medical practice referred to in that subsection, and
(b) provides for, acknowledges or regulates a financial benefit to any of them arising from or facilitated by the co-location or juxtaposition described in that subsection.
(3) A registered pharmacist or a pharmacy owner shall not recommend any medical practice or registered medical practitioner to a member of the public otherwise than in the exercise of his or her professional judgment as a pharmacist, or, as the case may be, in the proper carrying on of the business.
(4) In subsection (3), “ proper” means in a way not intended to result in a financial benefit to be derived from the medical practice or registered medical practitioner referred to in that subsection.
(5) A registered medical practitioner shall not recommend any pharmacist or retail pharmacy business to a member of the public otherwise than in the exercise of his or her professional judgment as a registered medical practitioner.
(6) A registered pharmacist or pharmacy owner who is aware of a contravention of this section shall report it to the Society.
(7) A registered medical practitioner who is aware of a contravention of this section shall report it to the Medical Council.
(8) A contravention of this section—
(a) by a registered pharmacist shall for the purposes of section 35 and so much of this Part as relates to that section, constitute professional misconduct by the registered pharmacist,
(b) by the owner of a registered retail pharmacy business shall for the purposes of section 36 and so much of this Part as relates to that section, constitute misconduct of the kind referred to in that provision by the pharmacy owner,
(c) by a registered medical practitioner shall, for the purposes of section 45 of the Medical Practitioners Act 1978 and so much of Part V of that Act as relates to that section, or any enactment re-enacting those provisions, constitute professional misconduct by the registered medical practitioner.
(9) Subsections (1) to (4) and (10) and such much of the remainder of this section as relates to those subsections shall apply in relation to a registered retail pharmacy business or medical practice which was being lawfully carried on immediately before the passing of this Act only with effect on and from such later date as is specified by order made by the Minister.
(10) In this section “ registered medical practitioner ” has the same meaning as in section 63

RobFowl

Ausone wrote: »

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2007/en/act/pub/0020/sec0064.html

Section is also relevant
Prohibitions on carrying on retail pharmacy businesses and medical practices together and on improper recommendations.

I know at least 2 locally which breach these

Serioulsy though there is a fair bit of synergy between the 2 professions (like it or not) and if the OP is considering opening seriously then......................................

locum-motion

I only quoted the title page of the Act, which says that it's an Act to prevent INAPPROPRIATE relationships. The Act itself of course goes into much more detail.

When you get into the nitty gritty of the act, it doesn't prevent a GP practice employing a pharmacist to - for example - advise on appropriate prescribing etc. In that case, the pharmacist wouldn't be the beneficial proprietor of the business that dispenses the prescriptions, so it wouldn't be a problem.

It also doesn't prevent a pharmacist from being an GP's landlord, or vice versa.

What it does prevent is the situation where a pharmacist provides a premises at less than the going market rent to a GP.

Robfowl's suggestion to the OP was that they provide a premises to a GP. That would be illegal under the 2007 Act if the GP was paying less than the going rate for rent. That's an inappropriate relationship between prescriber and dispenser. Neither should derive any fiscal benefit from the other's activities. If they do, that's a big can of Lumbricus terrestris that both professions can do without.

In certain cases where GPs and Pharmacies shared premises prior to the passing of the 2007 Act, an amount of time is allowed for them to change their arrangements before that section of the Act comes into force on 1/5/10. See PHARMACY ACT 2007 (SECTION 64(9)) ORDER 2009 (Link)

It remains to be seen if any prosecutions will be brought under the Act for any practices that may be in breach of it. I suspect we'll hear about them in due course.

ksj1526

"I was made redundant a few weeks ago " Are you a non-EEA?

ksj1526

RobFowl wrote: »

That section prevents pharmacists employing GP's and GP's employing pharmacists, but within limits does not prevent them sharing the same or adjecant buildings.

What is the defination of 'CERTAIN INAPPROPRIATE RELATIONSHIPS"? Does it mean If I am a phamacist I can't marriage with a medical practitioner? Or I shouldn't have fellowships with them?

locum-motion

ksj1526 wrote: »

What is the defination of 'CERTAIN INAPPROPRIATE RELATIONSHIPS"?

The link to the Act is right there in my post above! Would you like me to come around to your place and press your mouse button for you?
AND I've explained it in layman's language in post #19 too!

ksj1526 wrote: »

Does it mean If I am a phamacist I can't marriage with a medical practitioner? Or I shouldn't have fellowships with them?

No, it doesn't. Don't be silly!

ksj1526

Sorry I didn't see the second page before I post the reply. My mistake!

RobFowl

locum-motion wrote: »

The link to the Act is right there in my post above! Would you like me to come around to your place and press your mouse button for you?
AND I've explained it in layman's language in post #19 too!

Your link is actually to the enactment order and not the actual Act

So re "Would you like me to come around to your place and press your mouse button for you?" then answer should be no, an accurate link is enough.

Here it is here
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2007/en/act/pub/0020/index.html

The relevant sections are section 63,64 and 65.

The term "inappropriate relationship" is not used nor defined in the Act itself.

What is does say is that if a pharmacist has a "beneficial interest" in a medical practice then this may be seen as professional misconduct (interestingly not an "offense under the act" so not actually illegal but can get a pharmacist struck off the professional register)

As with all legislation it's often not completely clear how certain relationships are actually seen until it is tested and defined in the courts.

locum-motion

RobFowl wrote: »

Your link is actually to the enactment order and not the actual Act

So re "Would you like me to come around to your place and press your mouse button for you?" then answer should be no, an accurate link is enough.

You're quite right and I apologise. I thought I'd linked to it in one of my other posts, but I hadn't.
Nevertheless, the explanation is there, and it is silly in the extreme to ask if "inappropriate relationships" means that pharmacist and doctors can't marry each other.

locum-motion

RobFowl wrote: »

The relevant sections are section 63,64 and 65.

The term "inappropriate relationship" is not used nor defined in the Act itself.

The term is indeed used* in the Act. It is used on the title page, in block capitals, in the bit that explains why the Act exists.
As to a definition, you're right to say that there's no part of the act that says "In this Act, 'Inappropriate Relationship' means..."
I would argue that Sections 63, 64 and 65 form the definition of the term.

* (My emphasis)
"AN ACT TO MAKE NEW PROVISION FOR THE REGULATION OF PHARMACY, INCLUDING PROVISION FOR THE DISSOLUTION OF THE PHARMACEUTICAL SOCIETY OF IRELAND AND THE SETTING UP OF A NEW PHARMACEUTICAL SOCIETY OF IRELAND, FOR THE ESTABLISHMENT, CONSTITUTION AND FUNCTIONS OF THE NEW SOCIETY’S COUNCIL, FOR A NEW SYSTEM OF REGISTRATION OF QUALIFIED PHARMACISTS, DRUGGISTS AND PHARMACEUTICAL ASSISTANTS AND OF PHARMACIES, FOR THE CREATION OF CERTAIN OFFENCES RELATING TO PHARMACY AND FOR THE SETTING UP OF NEW PROCEDURES TO ENSURE THAT PHARMACISTS ARE AND CONTINUE TO BE FIT TO PRACTISE AND TO PREVENT PHARMACISTS, PHARMACY OWNERS AND MEDICAL PRACTITIONERS FROM ENTERING INTO CERTAIN INAPPROPRIATE RELATIONSHIPS; AND TO PROVIDE FOR RELATED MATTERS."

locum-motion

RobFowl wrote: »

As with all legislation it's often not completely clear how certain relationships are actually seen until it is tested and defined in the courts.

Absolutely.

RobFowl

Apologies for stroppy posting

locum-motion

RobFowl wrote: »

Apologies for stroppy posting

Apologies from me too. My 'do you want me to press your button for you' comment was kinda stroppy too.

wheresthebeef

hypothetical query.
If a GP was also a qualified Pharmacist, and operated a GP Practice, and a Pharmacy, side by side, with internal access between both, which occasionally was used to facilitate public access. Would this be unprofessional of the GP/Pharmacist?

RobFowl

wheresthebeef wrote: »

hypothetical query.
If a GP was also a qualified Pharmacist, and operated a GP Practice, and a Pharmacy, side by side, with internal access between both, which occasionally was used to facilitate public access. Would this be unprofessional of the GP/Pharmacist?

In a word yes.

SomeDose

wheresthebeef wrote: »

hypothetical query.
If a GP was also a qualified Pharmacist, and operated a GP Practice, and a Pharmacy, side by side, with internal access between both, which occasionally was used to facilitate public access. Would this be unprofessional of the GP/Pharmacist?

I believe I'm familiar with this "hypothetical" GP surgery / pharmacy of which you speak...!

pop100

I think you are absolutly right to look into starting up your own business, i am also thinking of starting a pharmacy business myself and i am not a pharmacist either, i have been working in the diagnostic's industry for several years but am soon to be made redundant. Why should we not try to develop some kind of future for ourselves and families. I dont believe that only qualified pharmist's are allowed to open a pharmacy, if you have a good business sense and get the right people behind you i.e finance which i think will be the biggest problem. then there should be no reason why you should not start the business. I hope to start the business also in a quiet rural village which does not currently have a chemist ( hopefully we'r both not from the same village by the way!!) There are 2 GP's living there however they travel to work to a neighbouring town. I think it is a good idea for a business, at the end of the day the pharmacy will cover alot of other areas not only presriptions, you will have cosmetics, child / adult care etc, also the area of some veterinary supplies if it is a rural area. The finance of the business will be a big problem tough i cant find any bank etc willing offer any assistance so far! Best of luck tough!

Entrepreneur??? wrote: »

I'm thinking of opening a pharmacy in my local village as there is a need for one. I'm not a pharmacist. Does anyone have any knowledge of the pharmacy business? Pitfalls etc? I also need to find a pharmacist, would a pharmacist be interested in working in a completely new business? I don't even know where to go looking for a pharmacist to see if any are interested?

DrIndy

Hey folks - please keep in mind the sticky on the top of the forum about discussing/attacking pharmacists regarding pharmacy reimbursements during the course of this ongoing thread.

If it turns into an attack on pharmacists - it will be instantly locked.

Delancey

pop100 wrote: »

The finance of the business will be a big problem tough i cant find any bank etc willing offer any assistance so far! Best of luck tough!

Finance will be the killer - not only are the banks severely rationing finance to all business but cuts in Pharmacy reimbursement is hitting some pharmacies hard and this will make bankers think very carefully before lending to a start-up pharmacy.

Premier!

I'm curious to find out if this person actually went and opened a pharmacy?????