Ultrarunning Plan and Running Intervals

scottreynolds

Was just wondering what kind of running intervals people who are doing Ultra's are doing round here? I've been doing some net searching a book reading but most of the information seems to relate to Marathoning. Can I apply the same theories for an ultra run...

I'm training up for Conneultra and a few other trail runs as well.

woundedknee

A regular interval session I would include in my Ultra preparation would be 4*2K at 5K race pace during which I use a heart rate monitor to determine effort. If training with others I run at a set pace and shorten the intervals to 800-1200M. The pace for the intervals would be the same as I would use if training for a goal time in a Marathon. All int sessions on grass and never overdone.

When training for an Ultra my long run pace is usualy at or slightly faster than race pace and when training for a Marathon my long run is 15-30 seconds slower than race pace.

Krusty_Clown

How do you establish your ultra race pace woundedknee?

woundedknee

Krusty,
I'm sure it will differ from person to person but for me I use a heart rate monitor and run at 65-75% of my HR max and based on these sessions I have a good idea of the pace I can run at during a race. I trained and raced at this effort during the recent 24hr race and that was approx 4hr Marathon pace and during the Celtic 100K I ran at close to 3:30 Marathon pace which was 70-80% of my HR max.

Zuppy

I find the bigger problem is writing or following an Ultra marathon plan, let alone the intervals.

Not much in the way of Ultra running plans out there and very few have specific interval plans. My intervals have in the past been decided by the distance I plan (or not plan ) to run.

1km repeats seem to work for me up to 40 mile distance. Longer, I tend to place more emphasis on learning to keep the walking speed up and the aerobic heart rate going longer (running) and the intervals find there own place depending on how I feel.

(fyi- I don't attempt to race)

Enduro

A considerable number of ultrarunners do little or no interval training. Its a subject I've had discussions on with some of the other Irish Ultra internationals.

My personal opinion is that it is pretty much of no consequence to your ability to finish an ultra, but surprisingly important in terms of racing an ultra, even the more lenghty end of the ultra world like 24hour races.

For the connemara ultra I'd definitely apply a marathon style programme, but preferably with longer LSRs, or more back to back LSRs. I treat the race mentally as 3 back-to-back half marathons (The set-up of the race really encourages that apporach). To me, its closer to a marathon than a 100km in tactical terms, so a souped up marathon programme shouls suite it well. If you were setting out to do something that takes longer than 12 hours to compete I'd personally recommend totally rebalancing to include more endurance work and much less speed work.

For my own speed sessions, when I get round to doing them, I tend to do something around 800-1000 metre intervals at near max effort (I don.'t have that much speed), with 2 1600-2000m intervals in the middle at "high speed cruise". As with all my sessions, I use "feel" rather than HRMs, and use the sessions as another opportunity to hone my feel for pacing, which is one of the most important skills of running an ultra at optimal speed.

Abhainn

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

How do you establish your ultra race pace woundedknee?

or Krusty what I call "PUMP" - Planned Ultra Marathon Pace.

For the 2009 Conn Ultra my PUMP pace was rather simply dividing the Ultra distance of 39.3 miles into an acheivable time I thought I could complete the course in without any walking stops i.e. 5hrs divided by 39.3 = 7.6 mins /mile.
I planned to do my back to back LSR's at this pace or quicker, but my main objective was to keep these runs well below 80% of my HR max.
I just treat the Con Ultra as a long marathon. If I was ever going to attempt a 100k or 100miler I would probably take a different approach.

Regarding intervals well I find the mile intervals at 10k pace very uselful. I make these sessions a little more difficult by ensuring the pace of each recovery mile is done at a nice clip too.

The master Enduro's "feel" method is great advise also.

scottreynolds

Thanks all.. good advice here. I'll take it on board and prepare my plan for Connemara. I really don't want to end up long and slow at the moment so I'll definately be trying to up the pace.

Base on my 3:48 Dublin I'm thinking around 6 hours for Conne but it all depend on how training goes.

Krusty_Clown

Thanks guys. This feedback, from such an experienced bunch of ultra-runners, is gold-dust. My very fool-hardy approach is to do very little training for the Connemara ultra at all. Let me explain:

I have done 5 marathons in the last 18 months, three of which I pushed the pace for (3:25 (Longford 08), 3:22 (DCM 08), 3:00 (Berlin '09)), and two of which I acted in a pacing capacity (3:39 (Connemara '09) and (3:29 (DCM '09))both of which I ran at an extremely comfortable pace, and felt afterwards like I could have run the extra 13 miles distance to complete the Connemara Ultra distance.

So my plan is to train for a sub-3 in Barcelona in early March, and then do the Ultra in April at a pace that I can run very comfortably at (e.g. 8min/mile). I'm not planning on doing any additional mileage beyond my marathon program, except on weekends, when I will try to clock up additional miles on a Saturday before the long run on a Sunday (e.g. 10 + 20).

My target is to finish the Ultra comfortably (or as comfortably as one can finish an Ultra). I have no time goals! I haven't historically had any problems recovering from marathons, and running a second marathon 4-5 weeks later has not posed any problems. So the question is, is this really a fool-hardy approach? Am I not taking the added distance seriously enough? I have seen it mentioned a number of times on this forum that a solid marathon program will get you through the Connemara Ultra, do you think this is the case?

(Oh and sorry for jumpnig on your train Scott!).

mithril

Abhainn wrote: »

What I call "PUMP" - Planned Ultra Marathon Pace.

For the 2009 Conn Ultra my PUMP pace was rather simply dividing the Ultra distance of 39.3 miles into an acheivable time I thought I could complete the course in without any walking stops i.e. 5hrs divided by 39.3 = 7.6 mins /mile.
I planned to do my back to back LSR's at this pace or quicker, but my main objective was to keep these runs well below 80% of my HR max.

On the day, would you adjust your PUMP for the profile of the course as well to try and keep the required effort constant?
In Connemara, first third is flat, second third slightly tougher, and there are two big hills in the final third which you hit while tired.

So taking an approach of constant sustainable effort, you need to be running the first section slightly faster than the average sustainable pace?

So targeting a 5:15 finish time at my average sustainable 12KMPh pace,
the target pace for each section becomes:

First third:12.5 KMPh
Second third:12.0 KMPh
Final Third:11.5 KMPh

Abhainn

mithril wrote: »

On the day, would you adjust your PUMP for the profile of the course as well to try and keep the required effort constant?
In Connemara, first third is flat, second third slightly tougher, and there are two big hills in the final third which you hit while tired.

So taking an approach of constant sustainable effort, you need to be running the first section slightly faster than the average sustainable pace?

So targeting a 5:15 finish time at my average sustainable 12KMPh pace,
the target pace for each section becomes:

First third:12.5 KMPh
Second third:12.0 KMPh
Final Third:11.5 KMPh

In a sense yes. I always aim for an equal split but in this profile I would try to run a slightly positive split and have a couple of mins in the bag i.e. for a 5:15finish would be a 1:50 for each half. So:
First third: 1:49
Second third:1:49.
Final Third: 1:52

Last year I ran a 1:36 for each of the first two thirds (was feeling good) and 1:40 last third to come under my 5hr target.

mithril

Thanks.
I think you need 1:45 average splits though for a 5:15 finish.
1:50 gets you around in 5:30

Abhainn

mithril wrote: »

Thanks.
I think you need 1:45 average splits though for a 5:15 finish.
1:50 gets you around in 5:30

Don't often get my calculations wrong - cheers

woundedknee

Abhainn wrote: »

or Krusty what I call "PUMP" - Planned Ultra Marathon Pace.

For the 2009 Conn Ultra my PUMP pace was rather simply dividing the Ultra distance of 39.3 miles into an acheivable time I thought I could complete the course in without any walking stops i.e. 5hrs divided by 39.3 = 7.6 mins /mile.
I planned to do my back to back LSR's at this pace or quicker, but my main objective was to keep these runs well below 80% of my HR max.
I just treat the Con Ultra as a long marathon. If I was ever going to attempt a 100k or 100miler I would probably take a different approach.

Regarding intervals well I find the mile intervals at 10k pace very uselful. I make these sessions a little more difficult by ensuring the pace of each recovery mile is done at a nice clip too.

The master Enduro's "feel" method is great advise also.

That all makes perfect sense and if that post got in before my one I'd have stayed quiet.

woundedknee

Krusty,
I would say keep doing what you are doing but be cautious going from the Marathon to the Ultra in such a short period oftime. No big deal if you werejust runningthe Marathon as a training run but it sounds like this is your goal race and the Ultra is an extra. If I was doing so ething similar I'd have a sports massage booked for as soon as possible after the Marathon.

Enduro

woundedknee wrote: »

Krusty,
I would say keep doing what you are doing but be cautious going from the Marathon to the Ultra in such a short period oftime. No big deal if you werejust runningthe Marathon as a training run but it sounds like this is your goal race and the Ultra is an extra. If I was doing so ething similar I'd have a sports massage booked for as soon as possible after the Marathon.

+1 on that. I find they really assist post-race recovery

Base on my 3:48 Dublin I'm thinking around 6 hours for Conne but it all depend on how training goes.

I'll give you my figures for coomparison. My fitness would have been roughly similar for each race. The ratios between them might help with working out a target time/pace (but bear in mind I'm a good hill runner):

DCM : 2:41 (2002)
Conn Marathon: 2:46 (2003)
Conn Ultra: 4:33 (2004)

On the day, would you adjust your PUMP for the profile of the course as well to try and keep the required effort constant?

Constant effort is the absolute key in hilly races. Forget about the actual pace, its the effort that is important.

With that in mind, I tend to target doing an "effort" negative split in the CU by running the 3 HMs in equal time (each does get progressively harder). I work out the minutes per mile that equates to and use the mile markers to monitor that. But I wouldn't sweat being behind the target too much. Its more important to keep the effort at a level that will allow you to reach the finish still running well, no matter how that effort measures up to target pace. (I would use it to ease back early in the race though, if the pacing was ahead of target).

Zuppy

Just to put in perspective, the jump from marathon to ultra is not so hard and not much of a problem. Unfortunately it is a bit of trail and error as the science is not so developed for ultras as it is for marathons. You do what feels right or you know suits you, depending on your goals.

The Conn Ultra is a great step up from the marathon. It happened to be my first ultra as well. Your treating it with a healthy respect so you should be fine.

The major difference I find in stepping up to the ultra is the mind set and the fueling. After that it is as simple as keep on moving. And ultra is just another long run is basically what I am saying. Not to be feared.