Using vegetable oil as fuel

demag

I had been running my van on upto 100% veg oil, not being sure off the legality of this I called Revenue to see if I could pay duty if applicable.
The first person I spoke to told me that it was impossible to use it as a fuel cos it wouldn't work. I called another office and got told that it would be 40 odd cent per litre for duty but as he hadn't dealt with this before he would make sure and call me back. He called back and told me they couldn't take any duty for it because they have no way to know if the oil in the van's tank has been duty paid.
It seems that Revenue haven't considered people using oil like this and haven't any way of dealing with it. Searching Revenue's website hasn't been any help either. I know in the UK you can use 2500 litres per year duty free.
Does anyone know anything about using veg oil fuel ?
Has anyone links to any other info about this?

Mr Benevolent

Can't help you on the legality of it, but were there any technical challenges in converting over? Where do you get your vegetable oil? Most people who think of converting to veggie oil tend to find this a major stumbling block.

demag

No conversion needed on it, its a mk5 transit, just fill the tank with the veg oil, if its going to freeze at night I stick a tenner of diesel in to thin it a bit. I get the oil from a chinese wholesalers in dublin, 82c per litre.

Matt Simis

demag wrote: »

No conversion needed on it, its a mk5 transit, just fill the tank with the veg oil, if its going to freeze at night I stick a tenner of diesel in to thin it a bit. I get the oil from a chinese wholesalers in dublin, 82c per litre.

New or used?
I was paying 88c a litre for Biodiesel 6mths ago, inc duty and VAT and suitable for all cars. Biodiesel would outperform Veg Oil even in vehicles that dont require conversion for SVO.

demag

I've used Biodiesel too but for me the veg oil is easier to get. Its new oil too , performance wise and mpg there's no difference between any of them but it is a 97 van with 250k miles on it.

antodeco

So you are basically saying you can fill your car up with pure veggie oil and run it no problem?

Encoder1970

Interesting, I've heard of the conversions etc but being able to just fill up on straight veg oil seems brilliant.
Didn't Mythbusters do an episode about this?

A diesel car swapped straight to veg oil
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQ0cCNyxRKY

JHMEG

Matt Simis wrote: »

New or used?
I was paying 88c a litre for Biodiesel 6mths ago, inc duty and VAT and suitable for all cars. Biodiesel would outperform Veg Oil even in vehicles that dont require conversion for SVO.

I'm guessing new. Veg oil, being a food, would be VAT-free?

http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/vat/leaflets/food-and-drink.html

Ironically WVO sold for reprocessing is liable to 21.5% VAT.

robtri

top gear did it as well,
had a guy from the AA verify the tank was empty poured in veg oil and away they went, they noticed virtually no difference in performance.

On A side note a mate of mine used to( not sure if he still does) do the conversion kits and supplies as well for all makes of cars and trucks,

the main issue he found without using a conversion kit was that the oil on start up was a bit sluggish as it is thicker than diesel, the conversion kit basically adds a heater to the diesel/veg line to ensure it is always warm and fluid going into the engine...

I have seem him run a range rover without a kit and have no problems whatsoever..

Encoder1970

Just found the Top gear video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOFbsaNeZps

redsteveireland

demag wrote: »

I've used Biodiesel too but for me the veg oil is easier to get. Its new oil too , performance wise and mpg there's no difference between any of them but it is a 97 van with 250k miles on it.

I'm no expert on this and I've done some checking but could not find a straight answer, I have a 97 diesel A4, would I be able to use veg oil in it without causing any problems?

demag

Not every diesel can run on it, commonrails can't handle it and VW PD engines can't. Depends on the fuel pump too, some pumps the oil rots the seals, if its Bosch its ok. Basically most older low tech diesel are good for it.

Demag, how long have you been using the SVO? The reason I'm asking is that 97 Transit is an DI engine and apparently vegetable oil can cause some major issues on direct injection diesels as it can get in contact in liquid form with the cylinder walls.

The older indirect engines do not suffer from this, but transit was one of the first of the DI engined small diesels.

How often do you change your engine oil?

craichoe

http://www.diesel-therm.com/vegetable-oil-kit.htm

fonecrusher1

Anybody know where i can get bio-diesel or cheap veg oil in cork?

I know this has been covered elsewhere on this forum but there wasnt a definitive answer.

demag

I've done about 5k miles on it, oil change before I started and will do one next week. There's a few people on the transit forums using it too without any probs.
I have a spare engine for it anyway so killing the engine is not a worry.

Good stuff, I like your attitude.

Keep us posted for the long term findings. I read about the subject in the past and there were horror stories on modern diesel engines gelling their engine oil => oil starvation and death.

PS. The old transit engine has hypermiler potential. Once read an article of one with more than 1 000 000 km on clock without any work done on the engine itself. I think it was an '86.

nogoodnamesleft

demag wrote: »

Not every diesel can run on it, commonrails can't handle it and VW PD engines can't. Depends on the fuel pump too, some pumps the oil rots the seals, if its Bosch its ok. Basically most older low tech diesel are good for it.

This is notstrictly true regards VAG.

Through the wonders of the internet I have VW documentation stating that VAG diesels can burn bio diesel however..... its has to be of a certain specific standard and to the best of my knowledge most people manufacturing bio diesel that I have been in contact with dont seem to know much regards the product they are selling, what vehicle types or suited to it or the adverse effects that it can cause on the vehicle that it uses their bio.

They simply say ya or nay regards the car in question usually saying that "sure john up the road has been using it for a few months with no problems" or no saying that its not suited and not knowing the reason why

Common rail diesel injectors operate at unbelieveable pressures in the region of 16,000psi!!! diesel fuel is of a certain viscosity and it is maintained through quality assurance of the big manufacturers.
Then you have your bio diesel produced on a small scale in some lads shed out the back i doubt they would be taking samples for every batch and disposing of the diesel which wouldnt make the grade, also the quality would be variable.

One particular problem with VAGs buring unsuitable bio is the injectors wear (due to the high pressure and different viscosity of biodiesel) and considering the price of them if they were ever to go wrong the price could possibly be multpiles of the "saving" a punter might make using the stuff.

Car mechanics magazine have covered this topic in a few issues, in a recent article there was a lad using his own bio for a 2.5 V6 Tdi Audi Allroad. You can buy kits these days for 2000 pounds sterling but as i said if it was my car i would be very pedantic regards the fuel I would be getting off a bio diesel supplier.


Edit: regards the seals, biodiesel is a solvent so anything rubber it rots (e.g. rubber seals and rubber fuel lines) it also removes years of grease and dirt. A lot of problems with running bio diesel in the early days is that it cleans the fuel lines thus choking your fuel filter (some owners change the fuel filter every couple of thousand miles) thus straving your engine of fuel.

demag

So can anyone help me with info about the duty on new veg oil ? there's surely got to be some customs officers here somewhere.

JHMEG

Work at it from the other end.

a) VAT is due on fuels, at the full rate. Does what you pay include VAT?
- See my post above... it possibly doesn't
b) Excise is due on fuels, with a few listed exemptions. Find the list. Is veg oil on it?
- AFAIK, the only exemptions are for E85 and certified biodiesel.

demag

Excise is due on fuels but all I can find is rates for hydrocarbon based fuel or mineral oils, it just seems like they haven't even considered the possibility of anyone using veg oil.

JHMEG

From what I've read fuel oil is specifically defined, so veg oil can't be considered as fuel oil. Biofuels are also defined, and again veg oil does not meet the definition provided. Veg oil is not defined at all, so it would appear it's not covered by legislation.

Therefore it would appear that putting veg oil in your fuel tank is the same as putting coca cola in... until it's covered by legislation there is no fuel excise due on it.

demag

So I wonder what the nice customs man will say if I get my tank dipped at a checkpoint ?

nogoodnamesleft

nogoodnamesleft wrote: »

This is notstrictly true regards VAG.

Through the wonders of the internet I have VW documentation stating that VAG diesels can burn bio diesel <snip>

The original subject was about straight vegetable oil, i.e. the stuff that the biodiesel is made of.

The success rate on running biodiesel is >> than SVO, and the biodiesel if manufactured right should not cause the engine oil gelling problem I mentioned earlier. I doubt any manufacturer would certify their engine for SVO but it still can be used on many old diesels pump etc. permitting.

Demag, dipping: The veggie oil does not have green colour added so you should be ok.

Bandara

It has an excise duty applicable per litre of 36.8 cent per litre (once you reach 1000 litres) as a substitute fuel and obviously the 21% vat.

As an aside if you are buying for 82c a litre why do you not just buy normal derv at €1.10 a liter and you can claim the vat back as the motor expense to the business? End up the same price pretty much, or am I missing something?



Some interesting blurb :

http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/Energy/Sustainable+and+Renewable+Energy+Division/Biofuels+Scheme+II/Frequently+Asked+Questions.htm



edit - there was changes made to the legislation last budgte about being ab le to use clean oil, however it does not seem to have been implemented so the loophole is still there.

JHMEG

Hammertime wrote: »

It has an excise duty applicable per litre of 36.8 cent per litre

Can you quote a source?

Veg oil does not meet the defintion of a biofuel, fuel oil, light oil or heavy oil according to the Revenue. Their April 2009 Schedule of Excise Duties does not mention veg oil at all.

Revenue wrote:

“biofuel” means any mineral oil which is produced from biomass;

“biomass” means the biodegradable fraction of products, waste and residues from agriculture (including vegetal and animal substances), forestry and related industries, as well as the biodegradable fraction of industrial and municipal waste;

“fuel oil” means heavy oil, the viscosity of which as determined by the Redwood No. 1 Viscometer at 38° Celsius is more than 115 seconds, the ash content of which is less than 0.2 per cent when tested in accordance with the method known as the ASTM D482 method or other equivalent method approved by the Commissioners and the colour of which is darker than 8 when tested in accordance with the method known as the ASTM D1500 method or other equivalent method approved by the Commissioners;

“heavy oil” means hydrocarbon oil other than light oil;

“light oil” means hydrocarbon oil of which, when tested in accordance with the method known as the ASTM D86 method or other equivalent method approved by the Commissioners, not less than 50 per cent by volume distils at a temperature not exceeding 185° Celsius or of which not less than 95 per cent by volume distils at a temperature not exceeding 240° Celsius or which, when tested in accordance with the method known as the ASTM D93 or other equivalent method approved by the Commissioners has a flashpoint of less than 22.8° Celsius but does not include white spirit or light oil which is charged as heavy oil in accordance with section 96(4), Finance Act, 1999;

demag

Hammertime, where did you get that info about duty being due once you reach 1000 litres? Sounds similar to the UK where you are allowed 2500 litres. Also I'm not a registered business so can't claim anything back.
JHMEG, some good info in that document, it seems from section 4.3 paragraph 2 that duty is due as a substitute fuel at the same rate as diesel. When I called them they said they couldn't take any payment from me, I'll try them again now with this info, thanks for that.

craichoe

samih wrote: »

The original subject was about straight vegetable oil, i.e. the stuff that the biodiesel is made of.

The success rate on running biodiesel is >> than SVO, and the biodiesel if manufactured right should not cause the engine oil gelling problem I mentioned earlier. I doubt any manufacturer would certify their engine for SVO but it still can be used on many old diesels pump etc. permitting.

Demag, dipping: The veggie oil does not have green colour added so you should be ok.

Nah noone certifies for SVO because noone sells a car with a tanking system for it.

365v

demag wrote: »

Hammertime, where did you get that info about duty being due once you reach 1000 litres? Sounds similar to the UK where you are allowed 2500 litres. Also I'm not a registered business so can't claim anything back.
JHMEG, some good info in that document, it seems from section 4.3 paragraph 2 that duty is due as a substitute fuel at the same rate as diesel. When I called them they said they couldn't take any payment from me, I'll try them again now with this info, thanks for that.

I phoned the revinue a number of times and they had no answer for me
they only said there is notning in place to take excise off me.
Its not our fault they havent this sorted out. So happy days!

Alanstrainor

365v wrote: »

I phoned the revinue a number of times and they had no answer for me
they only said there is notning in place to take excise off me.
Its not our fault they havent this sorted out. So happy days!

Please don't drag up old threads.