Are we a generation of Men Raised by women?

minidazzler

I was recently rereading Fight Club, and in it there is a quote that stuck out to me everytime I have read the book or seen the film and I always wanted to discuss it.

Here seems like as good a place as any.

Do you think we are living in a society where men take a backseat role to the rearing of their Children?

Who was your Primary caregiver?

I know my mother was my primary care-giver, my Dad was living in Dublin for work for 8 years from when I was 10 to 18.

Most of my friends had both parents at home, but it seems the mother was the primary always I think.

Not sure if this will be successful, but it was playing on my mind.

Hazys

When in history was the man/husband the main raiser of children or homemaker?

TestTransmission

Hazys wrote: »

When in history was the man/husband the main raiser of children or homemaker?

Never

metrovelvet

Probably. Fight club is talking about the US though. And I read a statistic in a book on male depression that said fathers spend on average 11 minutes a day with their kids.

Khannie

Women have been the primary caregivers for hundreds of thousands of years.

I spent more time with my mum than my dad, for sure. My kids spend more time with their mum than me (for sure, because looking after them is her full time job). I spend a good bit of time with my kids though, mostly because I enjoy it. The youngfella is moving towards not wanting to spend time with his parents any more. You know...he's only in the door and he wants to head out with his mates, so it works both ways.

Wibbs

Hazys wrote: »

When in history was the man/husband the main raiser of children or homemaker?

When they were young defo not, but most if not all early societies had a point where the men of the tribe had a big role in the raising of young adult men. Puberty on kinda thing. Ditto for women.

While the father role is vitally important, I think young men benefit from older role model males who aren't their dad. I think that's what te fight club notion is more about and nada to do with the mums at all.

In the recent enough past apprenticeships and joining the army and the like were more modern equivalents of that I think.

metrovelvet

I think the fight club quote relates to men seeking out masculinities where they were missing in their lives; same reason some boys become sports FANTATICS or obsessed with gangs, etc.

Wibbs

Especially gangs. You see this where there's a lot of gang activity. In the majority of cases the father is absent and on top of that there is no level of older responsible men to take up that slack. So they look for male role models where they can and that's usually slightly older gang members. Rinse and repeat.

metrovelvet

Wibbs wrote: »

Especially gangs. You see this where there's a lot of gang activity. In the majority of cases the father is absent and on top of that there is no level of older responsible men to take up that slack. So they look for male role models where they can and that's usually slightly older gang members. Rinse and repeat.

Yes, its very disturbing. Slightly OT, but I am all too aware of this, and I try to make an effort with my own son, to point out to him positive things that men are doing, even if its just some random man on the street to try to inncolate him against any crappy role models he might choose for himself when he is older.

Delirium

I was raised by mother, step-mother, various aunts and friends of the family.

Growing up it wouldn't have be too unusual to see the dad of my friends pretty often, as nearly everyone I knew was raised by a married couple.

It definitely seems to be different these days. Seems less unusual to know guys who have no interest/role in their kids lives.

minidazzler

Wibbs wrote: »

When they were young defo not, but most if not all early societies had a point where the men of the tribe had a big role in the raising of young adult men. Puberty on kinda thing. Ditto for women.

While the father role is vitally important, I think young men benefit from older role model males who aren't their dad. I think that's what te fight club notion is more about and nada to do with the mums at all.

In the recent enough past apprenticeships and joining the army and the like were more modern equivalents of that I think.

Yes, this is the sort of thing I was on about, the father figure always indoctrinated the son into a few facets of Masculinity.

In older Ireland, the son would have been brought to the coal yard, the farm, whereever to do work at a time when he was really young. He would have been brought by his father, because that was his responsibility.

But this doesn't really happen any more!

My Formative years, I saw my Dad once every 2 weeks along with my Brother. Me and my (older) brother are now totally different people, except for a single common trait.

I agree with you that the roll of father is vitally important, especially when it comes to adolescence, but while my Dad had to work, I still don't think it is something that is fulfilled as it once was, by men.

I could be wrong though, but the question I asked in my poll was crap.

R0ot

Raised equally. Both had full time jobs and any time they had they spent with me and my siblings.

CDfm

Its odd that earning money from a job you might hate is not seen as caregiving.

trout

CDfm wrote: »

Its odd that earning money from a job you might hate is not seen as caregiving.

Money earned != care given.

It's at least one step removed; even if a job is not to your liking, it's the means to an end, and the end is essentially care giving, albeit in a limited, fiscal sense.

The most caring and attentive fathers / mothers may not have the largest paypackets. Not a direct link IMO.

minidazzler

CDfm wrote: »

Its odd that earning money from a job you might hate is not seen as caregiving.

The money simply provided comfort, it was no substitute for my Dad.

WindSock

I feel sorry for a lot of young boys that have no dads around. It is especially important to have a male role model in their early teens.
When I was working in a prison for young offenders, the vast majority had the same story. Single mother, biological father not around. (in NZ, I'm sure it's not too different here though, but there is a stronger gang culture there).

It's just a shame that our society doesn't cater well for this group.

I know the ISPCC do have a program for volunteer mentors. I think there needs to be more involvement at a community level for this kind of thing. I don't think it would be too hard, I reckon there would be a lot of guys who would be happy to mentor a young boy (after being vetted of course)

CDfm

minidazzler wrote: »

The money simply provided comfort, it was no substitute for my Dad.

I dont think there are often options, mortgages need to be paid and life goes on.Thats life.

Christmas presents dont get delivered by Santa:eek:

metrovelvet

CDfm wrote: »

I dont think there are often options, mortgages need to be paid and life goes on.Thats life.

Christmas presents dont get delivered by Santa:eek:

While yes you are right, food needs to be bought, clothes and shelter need to be provided for, kids spell love T-I-M-E.

But yes, they bust their ass for you because they love you. [And then there are others who use work and workaholicism to avoid their family- but thats for another day].

CDfm

metrovelvet wrote: »

While yes you are right, food needs to be bought, clothes and shelter need to be provided for, kids spell love T-I-M-E.

But yes, they bust their ass for you because they love you. [And then there are others who use work and workaholicism to avoid their family- but thats for another day].

What you are suggesting is the minimum possible - no mobile phones, broadband ,cable TV , cinema ...................................................

metrovelvet

CDfm wrote: »

What you are suggesting is the minimum possible - no mobile phones, broadband ,cable TV , cinema ...................................................

And? Isnt time with your father better than high speed internet? Isnt induction into manhood by your father better than learning it on sky tv?

You cant put a price on time.

CDfm

metrovelvet wrote: »

And?

Its very hard to go back and do without

metrovelvet

CDfm wrote: »

Its very hard to go back and do without

Ah. So its better to have no dad around. Hmnn. Interesting coming from you cdfm.

Kooli

CDfm wrote: »

I dont think there are often options, mortgages need to be paid and life goes on.Thats life.

Christmas presents dont get delivered by Santa:eek:

Which do you think you are more likely to hear an adult say

"I wish my dad was around more when I was a kid. I didn't see much of him, and it would have been nice to have more time with him/get to know each other better."

"I wish my dad worked a lot more so we had more stuff when I was younger. Sure, it was cool that he was around a lot, but I would have preferred more luxuries."

Macha

Khannie wrote: »

Women have been the primary caregivers for hundreds of thousands of years.

Do you have a source for this? Genuine question - I'm just wary of historical assumptions that are taken as fact.

CDfm

metrovelvet wrote: »

Ah. So its better to have no dad around. Hmnn. Interesting coming from you cdfm.

I think women should go out to work as they live longer.:D

Kooli

taconnol wrote: »

Do you have a source for this? Genuine question - I'm just wary of historical assumptions that are taken as fact.

Wouldn't the fact that breastfeeding was essential be enough to guarantee that the women were the primary caregivers throughout human history? Even in times when they used wet nurses, it's still a woman.

Surely it's only the introduction of formula and/or breastpumps that has allowed women any choice in this regards.

Red Hand

metrovelvet wrote: »

And? Isnt time with your father better than high speed internet? Isnt induction into manhood by your father better than learning it on sky tv?

You cant put a price on time.

I'd say there are a fair few little sh*ts that would disagree with that.:pac:

I've seen that Fight Club quote a few times now and it kind of annoys me. It's like the author thinks that it is a profound comment when really it's fairly twee and inaccurate.

There have been plenty of generations in the past when large numbers of men have been absent from their children's lives...most recently WW1 and WW2 when armys were swelled to many times their peacetime operating strengths. Go back further and there are more wars than you can shake a stick at. One of the most extreme examples is the Triple Alliance War between Paraguay and two other South American countries where there was something like only 30000 men left alive after the war from a population of 200000.

Yes, male role models are highly important for both girls and boys growing up, but there's nothing new about the absence of men from children's lives.

CDfm

Kooli wrote: »

Which do you think you are more likely to hear an adult say

"I wish my dad was around more when I was a kid. I didn't see much of him, and it would have been nice to have more time with him/get to know each other better."

"I wish my dad worked a lot more so we had more stuff when I was younger. Sure, it was cool that he was around a lot, but I would have preferred more luxuries."

Your more likely to hear a kid say I want -all my friends have them and I want to spend time with my friends and Dad do you have to speak you know its embarressing. Can we play a game of pretend we are orphans.

The world and the taxation and welfare system depend on Dads working.

Has it been said before - a woman will kill to protect her child but will she work to provide for them.

metrovelvet

CDfm wrote: »

I think women should go out to work as they live longer.:D

Women do go out to work. Have you been outside lately?

And some of them work inside too.

Khannie

metrovelvet wrote: »

Women do go out to work. Have you been outside lately?

And some of them work inside too.

I lol'd

liah

CDfm wrote: »

Your more likely to hear a kid say I want -all my friends have them and I want to spend time with my friends and Dad do you have to speak you know its embarressing. Can we play a game of pretend we are orphans.

A kid is superficial, but when they look back on their lives they will definitely be wishing they'd had a father and weren't so easily satiated by toys and tv. And even then, a kid may say "I want I want I want!" but they always have daddy on the backs of their minds. Trust me.

Not having your dad there often can do a lot of damage. I'm not even a guy and I know this because I've been through it myself. I didn't care much when I was younger but it was always on the back of my mind growing up and the last few years I've been an adult it really hit home.

Anyway, like many others have stated, the lack of fathers being around often isn't exactly new. This feminization of men seems to be a direct result of the equality and feminism movements. Since it's now okay for women to act like men, it's okay for men to act like women, and now we're all homogenized.

Dr Galen

what we need is a good war. that'll make a man outta all those men acting like women.

joking aside, there is and has been no significant pull together moments for our generation. I'm talking about anyone from around 25 to 45 here. Our grandparents had ww2 our great grand parents had ww1 and so on. I'm obviously not advocating invading Poland here or fighting them on the beaches, but events such as these do tend to unite and give a role to men (and women). Right now, we seem to be heading headlong into Japanese salaryman territory, which I for one find frightening and pretty awful

Will

I was raised by both my parents, my mother was a stay at home mom up until 6 years or so ago. My da works shift work and has done for almost 30 years.

My mother would have been around a lot more than my dad obviously but still remember learning different things from both. Early memories of me with my mother include swimming and "helping" her cook in the kitchen. Hurling and reading with my father.

Both contributed as much as they could until my lil bro came along.

To be honest I think since the celtic tiger, kids born during that era are a generation of kids raised by strangers i.e day care, au pairs/nannies. That's never sat well with me.

metrovelvet

Cdfm - ask someone who doesnt have a father whether they would prefer their father or broadband.

CDfm

metrovelvet wrote: »

Cdfm - ask someone who doesnt have a father whether they would prefer their father or broadband.

I think it more like do you want to have a lifestyle of living on state benefits or not.

Irish society exists the way it does cause guys work. In the main men dont have the option -guys cant simply down tools en masse and stay at home.

Macha

Kooli wrote: »

Wouldn't the fact that breastfeeding was essential be enough to guarantee that the women were the primary caregivers throughout human history? Even in times when they used wet nurses, it's still a woman.

Caring for a child involves a hell of a lot more than just breastfeeding. I'm just asking for proof, rather than assumption.

Kooli wrote: »

Surely it's only the introduction of formula and/or breastpumps that has allowed women any choice in this regards.

The inability of some women to breastfeed is nothing new. Sometimes it was out of choice and they were replaced with wet nurses and many who didn't have access to that sort of luxury replaced the milk of another animal, ie cows or goats.

CDfm

taconnol wrote: »

Caring for a child involves a hell of a lot more than just breastfeeding. I'm just asking for proof, rather than assumption.


The inability of some women to breastfeed is nothing new. Sometimes it was out of choice and they were replaced with wet nurses and many who didn't have access to that sort of luxury replaced the milk of another animal, ie cows or goats.

And that it is really - the luxury factors in modern living.

That includes kids in full time education and activities which have largely replaced the mothers role as primary caregiver.

We have come a long way from dairymaids and washing cloithes in streams

metrovelvet

CDfm wrote: »

I think it more like do you want to have a lifestyle of living on state benefits or not.

Irish society exists the way it does cause guys work. In the main men dont have the option -guys cant simply down tools en masse and stay at home.

.

And women work too. Why do you think women don't work?

CDfm

metrovelvet wrote: »

.

And women work too. Why do you think women don't work?

According to this there are 7,000 stay at home Dads in Ireland whereas 40 per cent of women are stay at home.

http://www.herald.ie/lifestyle/parents/homework-hoovering-and-hot-meals--meet-the-stay-athome-dads-1869583.html

There is a huge difference bettween the legal rights for fathers and those of mothers. Massive. So its not a choice that is given to men.

metrovelvet

CDfm wrote: »

According to this there are 7,000 stay at home Dads in Ireland whereas 40 per cent of women are stay at home.

http://www.herald.ie/lifestyle/parents/homework-hoovering-and-hot-meals--meet-the-stay-athome-dads-1869583.html

Forty percent of women or of mothers are stay at home? not all women are mothers.

[/QUOTE]
There is a huge difference bettween the legal rights for fathers and those of mothers. Massive. So its not a choice that is given to men.[/QUOTE]


And when they are not at work? What about then?

CDfm

metrovelvet wrote: »

And when they are not at work? What about then?

Well they dont become yummy mummy's.

They do what Dads do - darling daughter dropped by with her beautiful and not spotty(according to her) boyfriend at lunch time and we had lunch. She teased me terribly and we had a fun time.

My friend got home late last night to find his son had wolfed his dinner and wifey had run out ofprinter paper for a college project. He went to tescos for and had frozen pizza.

Low maintenence and laid back is what a Dad is.

Prof.Badass

trout wrote: »

Money earned != care given.

It's at least one step removed; even if a job is not to your liking, it's the means to an end, and the end is essentially care giving, albeit in a limited, fiscal sense.

The most caring and attentive fathers / mothers may not have the largest paypackets. Not a direct link IMO.

While obviously money is no replacement for love I can see where CDFM is coming from.

In an ideal world most fathers would love to spend all their time with their kids, but as CDFM said this isn't an ideal world, bills need to be paid. I think it's a case of tradtitionally men being willing to sacrifice their own happiness (doing a job they hate and missing out on spending time with their kids) to ensure the family can live in reasonable comfort (obviously a balance needs to be struck).
I'd even go so far as to say many men just wouldn't be happy letting anyone else take the hit (so to speak) feeling for some reason that as the man it is their responsibility.Surely there is something admirable about this?

Back to the OPs question, my mam stayed at home while my dad worked. While i would have spent more time around my mam for some reason i still felt closer to my dad (i guess because he was also male i felt i had more in common with him......and also he was the less strict one ).

Stheno

Most of my siblings would come under the other category (reason: My older brothers and sisters did most of it ) as I'm the oldest of 10 and there is a 20 year age gap between myself and the youngest.

For myself it would have been my dad more so than my mum from ten onwards, he worked 9-5 but my parents had a shop which my mum worked in when he was at work. Prior to that it would have been both fairly equally.

Then he came home, had dinner and minded the shop/opened it in the morning.

From about the age of ten, I'd come home, do my homework, have dinner, and help my da in the shop, my sister next to me did the childminding/ironing/washing/cooking, apart from on Sundays when my da and myself cooked

As kids my dad always pushed us very much to do sport/extracurricular activity and I have to say participated in pretty much every aspect of our lives.

Duh, forgot to say I'm female though!
It was great fun, we'd read the paper, chat about sports and politics

Kooli

CDfm wrote: »

I think it more like do you want to have a lifestyle of living on state benefits or not.

Irish society exists the way it does cause guys work. In the main men dont have the option -guys cant simply down tools en masse and stay at home.

Well you seem to be saying a different thing now.

Is it important for men to spend so much time at work so that their family can have the luxuries such as the good computer, the high speed broadband, the fancy holidays and the nice car?

Or is it just so that they are not living off the state?

If it's the former, then I stand by my point that most adults looking back (not most children at the time) would choose more time with their father over more luxuries.

CDfm

Kooli wrote: »

If it's the former, then I stand by my point that most adults looking back (not most children at the time) would choose more time with their father over more luxuries.

I think its a mix and people work because the choose it as a lifestyle choice over poverty.

metrovelvet

CDfm wrote: »

I think its a mix and people work because the choose it as a lifestyle choice over poverty.

Or is it the fathers choosing broadband and sky television over time with their kids?

Khannie

vinylmesh wrote: »

In an ideal world most fathers would love to spend all their time with their kids, but as CDFM said this isn't an ideal world, bills need to be paid. I think it's a case of tradtitionally men being willing to sacrifice their own happiness (doing a job they hate and missing out on spending time with their kids) to ensure the family can live in reasonable comfort (obviously a balance needs to be struck).

I think this covers it. While I'm not in love with my job, it's not the worst job in the world. What it is though is the job where I'm capable of earning most, so I stick with it. I could do a job that I prefer more and earn less. I think the same is probably true for 90% of people.

I could do a job with shorter hours and spend more time with my kids, that's also an option and I'd say it's an option for 90% of people.

It's a balancing act though and the balance is not just about maximising time with your kids. You've got a lot of things to consider...making sure you have a decent career path, looking after your retirement, etc. etc. Looking after those things doesn't make a father (or mother) wrong or selfish or whatever.

metrovelvet wrote: »

Or is it the fathers choosing broadband and sky television over time with their kids?

I don't think that's a fair question. I have broadband. Could I work less, have more time with my kids and no broadband? Probably, but I'd be cranky without broadband and that would impact on the children too. Like I said, I think it's a balancing act.

Khannie

taconnol wrote: »

Do you have a source for this? Genuine question - I'm just wary of historical assumptions that are taken as fact.

Sorry, I missed this earlier. No, I don't have a source for it and I take your point. It's not possible to say anything beyond what we have as recorded history. Though it does seem self evident to me I'll grant you that it's not smart to take things as self evident. I think it's logical enough to deduce from several things though:

1) Only women can breastfeed (another poster pointed that out).
2) Men are generally stronger and faster than women (due to higher testosterone levels). While women can cover more distance than men when it comes to ultra endurance (source - great book), men can cover medium distance (marathon or above) in faster times. There is obvious value in having the stronger / faster partner out hunting (as long as there is no perceived threat to the children). It is only in the modern era that strength is starting to lose its value.
3) Women are currently the primary caregivers in our society. I'm not aware of any society throughout recorded history where the majority of primary caregivers have been male.

There are other things too, but I'd say these are the most obvious things that made me think that.

Macha

Thanks for the reply. My rebuttal

Khannie wrote: »

1) Only women can breastfeed (another poster pointed that out).

There is a lot more to child care than just breast feeding.

Khannie wrote: »

2) Men are generally stronger and faster than women (due to higher testosterone levels). While women can cover more distance than men when it comes to ultra endurance (source - great book), men can cover medium distance (marathon or above) in faster times. There is obvious value in having the stronger / faster partner out hunting (as long as there is no perceived threat to the children). It is only in the modern era that strength is starting to lose its value.

Admittedly not much is known about prehistoric humans but there are strong signs that women brought more calories of food into the tribe/family than men in hunter/gathering societies. Hunting was not necessarily the main or most time-consuming source of food.

Khannie wrote: »

3) Women are currently the primary caregivers in our society. I'm not aware of any society throughout recorded history where the majority of primary caregivers have been male.

Recorded history coincided with agricultural societies, where women's roles as being major food providers was significantly diminished. I don't think you can ignore pre-history.

CDfm

metrovelvet wrote: »

Or is it the fathers choosing broadband and sky television over time with their kids?

No its about better and warmer houses, food , education and life opportunities really.

My daughter was in South Africa this year and on a youth group trip to Croatia. A big iron bird didnt drop out of the sky and land her in those places. My son was at Wacken for a Heavy Metal Festival and he didnt get there for free. Things cost money.

metrovelvet

CDfm wrote: »

No its about better and warmer houses, food , education and life opportunities really.

My daughter was in South Africa this year and on a youth group trip to Croatia. A big iron bird didnt drop out of the sky and land her in those places. My son was at Wacken for a Heavy Metal Festival and he didnt get there for free. Things cost money.

yes but you still spend time with your kids. and you imply [actually you came out and said it] that mothers dont provide for their children. wrong.