Mountjoy the Holiday Camp

lee_

http://www.rte.ie/player/#v=1062464

Just in case you didn't see the latest episode of Prime Time last night, based around petty crime in Dublin.

More than one of the criminals on this episode referred to Mountjoy as a holiday camp.

What do you think could/ should be done to the prison system to give the folk that end up in there a less pleasant experience

enda1

lee_ wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/player/#v=1062464

Just in case you didn't see the latest episode of Prime Time last night, based around petty crime in Dublin.

More than one of the criminals on this episode referred to Mountjoy as a holiday camp.

What do you think could/ should be done to the prison system to give the folk that end up in there a less pleasant experience

Why should they have a less pleasant experience?

Surely you would like them to be rehabilitated especially if you are talking about petty crimes, the ones that affect you and me on a daily basis?
How do you expect that a tougher time in gaol will reduce their chance of reoffending?

citizen_p

mountjoy female prison is definetly a nice place....you can do course which outside cost a couple of thousand. you get a room with ensuite (and they are all nice rooms) a communal area in each house. 2 dogs as pets.... fully kitted gym hair saloon art room etc....


most schools etc... dont have these...


the mens prison is horrible though. small cells no toilets etc....

Doni Mack

lee_ wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/player/#v=1062464

Just in case you didn't see the latest episode of Prime Time last night, based around petty crime in Dublin.

More than one of the criminals on this episode referred to Mountjoy as a holiday camp.

What do you think could/ should be done to the prison system to give the folk that end up in there a less pleasant experience

I have been in there, and it certainly aint no Mosney

shaneybaby

lee_ wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/player/#v=1062464

Just in case you didn't see the latest episode of Prime Time last night, based around petty crime in Dublin.

More than one of the criminals on this episode referred to Mountjoy as a holiday camp.

What do you think could/ should be done to the prison system to give the folk that end up in there a less pleasant experience

this guy has a few ideas
http://www.cnn.com/US/9907/27/tough.sheriff/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Arpaio

lee_

enda1 wrote: »

Why should they have a less pleasant experience?

Surely you would like them to be rehabilitated especially if you are talking about petty crimes, the ones that affect you and me on a daily basis?
How do you expect that a tougher time in gaol will reduce their chance of reoffending?

Isn't Prison supposed to also be some sort of deterrent, most of these people seem beyond rehabilitation.

lee_

shaneybaby wrote: »

this guy has a few ideas
http://www.cnn.com/US/9907/27/tough.sheriff/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Arpaio

Ah yes saw a program about that before, all pretty in Pink. I suppose a spot could be cleared in the Dublin Mountains ( :

maidhc

enda1 wrote: »

How do you expect that a tougher time in gaol will reduce their chance of reoffending?

Because rewarding people for doing wrong is normally counterproductive....

Reloc8

The concept of prison as punishment in this country is that the deprivation of liberty constitutes the punishment.

Anyone who thinks that is not a significant punishment in itself hasn't experienced it.

Anyone who thinks the mens' accommodation in Mountjoy is a holiday camp is talking nonsense.

The womens' facility is to a much higher standard while still providing the punishment - deprivation of liberty.

If you think deprivation of liberty is not sufficient punishment then you're entitled to your view but I'd be interested to hear the rationale for that.

maidhc

Reloc8 wrote: »

If you think deprivation of liberty is not sufficient punishment then you're entitled to your view but I'd be interested to hear the rationale for that.

Prison clearly isn't a deterrent for some, and it should be. If the convict doesn't feel punished, then it is irrelevant what anyones view is.... it simply must not be sufficient punishment.

Personally I think it would do them all the good in the world to send them cutting turf and filling potholes.

fend

I switched over half way through the show and actually thought it was some sort of Irish Vicky Polard skit... No lie... I really thought it was a joke.

Cannot BELIEVE some of the things they were saying about going to Prison! "It's a break from the kids" ???? :eek: Thats lovely...:rolleyes:

Somethings wrong somewhere...

Reloc8

maidhc wrote: »

Prison clearly isn't a deterrent for some, and it should be. If the convict doesn't feel punished, then it is irrelevant what anyones view is.... it simply must not be sufficient punishment.

Personally I think it would do them all the good in the world to send them cutting turf and filling potholes.

That's an argument for the escalation of sanctions up to the point where it is clear that the person subject to the sanctions has subjectively (i.e. they themselves accept that they have) experienced 'sufficient' punishment.

Two things :-

a) unfettered, its an argument for whatever is necessary in respect of a given individual or individuals.

b) the question of what is considered sufficient is hugely subjective.

The significance of the first issue is that the argument being made mandates more extreme punishment for some individuals but not for all. Equally if cutting turf and filling potholes is not sufficient to make them feel punished, presumably one escalates further. A question which arises is, to what point or limit do you escalate.

The significance of the second issue is more obvious. Measuring effectiveness of incarceration as a deterrent by rate of re-offending alone is not valid and ignores all of the many other factors which contribute to recidivism. Further, the objective of imposing punishment is not just to deter.

I don't have a problem by the way with the notion of people doing work as an alternative to incarceration or whilst incarcerated - we already have the principle of this in our system by way of community service orders. I endorse CSO's as an alternative to incarceration. I endorse incorporating work within sentences of imprisonment as being likely to lead to better mental health during incarceration and likely to provide better prospect of rehabilitation.

I don't endorse requiring prisoners to carry out work which is designed to be tedious, pointless or demeaning, or requiring them to carry out work in a way which is structured so as to be demeaning. I think this achieves nothing and costs more money to implement than what it is worth.

And as long as we're dealing with the highest percentage of re-offenders (being drug addicts and people with mental health issues with an overlap between the two) I'm not convinced that I want them to fill my potholes either.

Its a tricky one, in principle and in practice.

Finally as an addendum - there is a point c) which could be made after a) and b) above - perhaps the sentences being imposed are not of sufficient length.

Pre-empting any suggestion to the contrary I am not a criminologist and have never studied criminology and am not to be taken as spouting a whole load of pseudo-academic babble. These are my own thoughts made with as practical a focus as possible.

Shield

It's exactly what some people want! To them, the concept of liberty doesn't exist. They are either with their own kind inside, or with their own kind outside of a prison. Some barely notice the difference at all and are, arguably, beyond any form of rehabilitation that Ireland can offer.

If you give someone exactly what they want or are too happy to accept (imprisonment), then it can hardly be punishment?

Reloc8 wrote: »

The concept of prison as punishment in this country is that the deprivation of liberty constitutes the punishment.

Anyone who thinks that is not a significant punishment in itself hasn't experienced it.

Anyone who thinks the mens' accommodation in Mountjoy is a holiday camp is talking nonsense.

The womens' facility is to a much higher standard while still providing the punishment - deprivation of liberty.

If you think deprivation of liberty is not sufficient punishment then you're entitled to your view but I'd be interested to hear the rationale for that.

Reloc8

Anyone willing to propose alternatives/solutions ?

I have some but they don't involve the criminal justice system (much)...

lee_

Reloc8 wrote: »

Anyone willing to propose alternatives/solutions ?

I have some but they don't involve the criminal justice system (much)...

Lets hear them?

Also is there a 'hole' in Mountjoy? like in the American movies, just curious what is the punishment in there for bad behavior

Reloc8

lee_ wrote: »

Lets hear them?

Also is there a 'hole' in Mountjoy? like in the American movies, just curious what is the punishment in there for bad behavior

lol I'll let the thread develop for a bit. In any event they largely involve the redesign of society from the top down and the bottom up together with the complete re-ordering of the State and the World, sort of.

Punishment for bad behaviour can be loss of remission, transfer to a different prison, loss of visiting privileges, loss of recreation time, transfer to a different area in the prison, placed in strip cells - these are bare cells, no furniture and you're usually in them in your skivvies with a blanket...short term use to cool off.

You can of course also be charged for anything amounting to criminal behaviour.

Shield

Those serving long sentences for murder, rape etc. should be put to some form of use rather than cost the State money year in, year out. I can't remember which airline it was, but in the 80s, a US airline struck a deal with a few prisons that it would pay X towards the cost of keeping a prisoner imprisoned, and in return, the prison would provide prisoners (on a voluntary basis) to supply customer service to the airline.

In return, some of the prisoners got a bit of rehabilitation, their day went in quicker, they learned soft skills and some went on to enjoy full time employment in a similar sector when their sentences were served.

Reloc is right - the whole system needs reform. Criminals are walking out of courts after being found guilty, and many proceed to resume their activities as if they had just walked out of a cinema.

Tom Young

Reloc8 wrote: »

Anyone willing to propose alternatives/solutions ?

I have some but they don't involve the criminal justice system (much)...

I think flogging should be brought back in, and I'm serious.

I agree, I've also been in Mountjoy, right wing as I am, it should be knocked down, and very soon.

Tom

walrusgumble

fend wrote: »

I switched over half way through the show and actually thought it was some sort of Irish Vicky Polard skit... No lie... I really thought it was a joke.

Cannot BELIEVE some of the things they were saying about going to Prison! "It's a break from the kids" ???? :eek: Thats lovely...:rolleyes:

Somethings wrong somewhere...

true.

would it occur, that maybe the people are just playing up to the camera? acting all tough like its a badge of honour (sad, but it appears to some bragging about being in the joy is coool)

I wonder how hard they (not in a sexual way) are (women too - i have seen both places, agree the men's place is a hole) when they are in bed at night, blanket covered over them, sharing a room (in many cases) with complete nutters or in a room all on their own, wondering if her girlfriend/boyfriend/husband/wife are doing the dirt outside or getting fed up listening to their dull,insecure, idiotic thoughts (assuming)?

Lets face face and without generalising, many of the inmates either screwed up in life or never got the opportunities we all enjoy and like to gload about. prison is to deprieve someone of their liberty. who wants that taken from them? If the inmate is "holidaying" at the tax payers expenses, then some effort of remidal schooling/rehabilitation must at least be attempted and encourage inmates to change(some as ye know do wake up and walk away from a life of crime)

Whats the point throwing people into a cell and threat them like a pac of wolves. if you threat them like dogs, won't they act like dogs, in time?

On a seperate note, taking security risks and attempts of escape aside, is it feasible, in an era of human rights enlightenment, for prisoners, as part of their rehabilitation to be made carry out public works/labour? Would this cut down or reduce cheap labour eg. road works and other tasks that require non skilled workers? I know there are huge difficulties there (imagine a prisoner staff or garda with a sawn off shoot gun ala prison films)

Victor

maidhc wrote: »

Personally I think it would do them all the good in the world to send them cutting turf and filling potholes.

Chain gangs are more expensive than prisons.

Manual labour is useless at filling potholes.

Victor

fend wrote: »

"It's a break from the kids"

Presumably said by some idiot who has no interest in said children and is merely trying to be a "hard man".

psni wrote: »

If you give someone exactly what they want or are too happy to accept (imprisonment), then it can hardly be punishment?

Punishment isn't the only objective. Protection of society is another. People in prison are somewhat (but not totally) restricted in the damage they can do to society.

walrusgumble wrote: »

On a seperate note, taking security risks and attempts of escape aside, is it feasible, in an era of human rights enlightenment, for prisoners, as part of their rehabilitation to be made carry out public works/labour? Would this cut down or reduce cheap labour eg. road works and other tasks that require non skilled workers?

Trained construction workers (and their supervisors) are stupid enough, why are you suggesting untrained, unpaid (unincentivised) prisoners are going to do a better job?

walrusgumble

Victor wrote: »

Presumably said by some idiot who has no interest in said children and is merely trying to be a "hard man".

Punishment isn't the only objective. Protection of society is another. People in prison are somewhat (but not totally) restricted in the damage they can do to society.

Trained construction workers (and their supervisors) are stupid enough, why are you suggesting untrained, unpaid (unincentivised) prisoners are going to do a better job?

I am not actually suggesting it, I am simply putting the question before more knowledgeable people like yourself. I my self see problems with the idea, and your opinion makes the labour seem even more pointless The reason I put this question before the boards is because we have all heard this before and heard how great a certain jurisidiction is etc, but I never heard a proper discussion about the pro's and con's of same. But ye I would agree wholly with yourself.

Reloc8

Tom Young wrote: »

I think flogging should be brought back in, and I'm serious.

I agree, I've also been in Mountjoy, right wing as I am, it should be knocked down, and very soon.

Tom

Its all well and good coming out with the hardline stuff...lots of people have this view until its one of their own (friends, partner, family) who takes a wrong turn in life - then they are of course the exception who should be treated differently.

Or in case of a more relatively minor offence by a middle class yobbo which is the subject of prosecution...the cries of 'where are the gardai when they are needed'...'why doesn't someone do something about this'...'the only thing that will teach him a lesson is a short sharp shock' become replaced by 'have you no murderers to find'...'go and catch the real criminals' and 'he was only messing around/drunk/up to hi-jinks/has never done it before/don't ruin his life'.

*puke*

maidhc

Victor wrote: »

Manual labour is useless at filling potholes.

Manual labour is the only way a pothole can be filled aside from tarring the whole road, but I digress.

I understand the only reason prison labour is not allowed has more to do with the WTO than anything else. Certainly goods manufactured using forced labour cannot to the best of my knowledge be exported, but again, I digress.

I don't see much point in talking shop on this subject. As I said, if convicts don't mind the punishment then it cannot be sufficient punishment. Because middle class suburbia finds prison dislikable is neither here nor there.

Hell, I bet many people in mountjoy wouldn't swap their lives for a house in Leopardstown in negaitve equity, a toyota avensis three chiuldren in private school and a loveless marriage.

I'm not proposing a solution. I don't have one.

Tom Young

Reloc8 wrote: »

Its all well and good coming out with the hardline stuff...lots of people have this view until its one of their own (friends, partner, family) who takes a wrong turn in life - then they are of course the exception who should be treated differently.

Or in case of a more relatively minor offence by a middle class yobbo which is the subject of prosecution...the cries of 'where are the gardai when they are needed'...'why doesn't someone do something about this'...'the only thing that will teach him a lesson is a short sharp shock' become replaced by 'have you no murderers to find'...'go and catch the real criminals' and 'he was only messing around/drunk/up to hi-jinks/has never done it before/don't ruin his life'.

*puke*

I agree. I guess my op was a little quick!

sparkling sea

Anyone who has been to Mountjoy mens prison can only conclude that its a hell hole.

When I went to see the place there were 53 prisoners on a landing; these 53 people shared 2 toilets (the toilets had no doors) which the prisoners used in the morning.They lined up to take their turn in view of everyone else.
They had pots in their cells the rest of the time

These cells were about 9 x 6, they had 2 tiny beds, a small table and a telly in them. We were told they were locked in for about 23 hours every day.

On the other hand Mountjoy has one of the best librarys in Ireland, it cost a fortunate to renovate and stock and its very rarily open, its little use to anyone. This is rehabilition Irish style

Builderfromhell

Anyone been to Limerick Prison?
If so what's it like?

the_wheel_turns

Well we'll all be walking our dogs in the park at Thornton Hall because there sure isn't any sign of a prison opening out there.

Laminations

Descibing the conditions in Mountjoy it is obvious they are horrendous. But giving a subjective account of how they made you feel and me imagining how they'd make me feel doesn't necessarily mean these feelings generalise to other prisoners. Taking a **** on a shiity toilet with no privacy is tough for people with human dignity - but would it be tough for someone who raped an 80yr old or someone brazen enough to stab a girl in the face in full view of a crowd?? Certain punishments/conditions are like water off a ducks back to certain people. Someone suggested that tailoring punishments for individuals would be ridiculous, but this is done already in sentencing via differing lengths of imprisonment. If prison (as a punishment) is to be of any use then we need to look at each man and woman convicted on a case by case basis. What was their crime? what were their reasons? what is their remorse? what are their previous convictions? Whatever about first offences, people with a string of previous convictions are not receiving sentences of sufficient length (or harshness) and the logic of concurrent stints just seems to encourage crime sprees, especially for those on bail.

Prisons need to serve 3 purposes, punishment for the crime, justice for the victims and rehabilitation for the prisoner. But the prisoner needs to take an active role in their rehabilitation - they need to make an effort to better themselves in prison and they need to be given the opportunity to do so.

Finally, if someone isn't fit to be released from prison, regardless of whether they've served their time, they shouldn't be released and inflicted on society again until they are showing signs of rehabilitation. Prison is not simply a sin bin.

You can have it two ways, people have free will and choice in which case we need to promote good choices and punish people who make bad choices, educating them on how to make better choices in the future OR people are the consequences of their biology, their upbringing, environment, slaves to drug addiction etc. For the first case at least their is hope, the possibility of intervention, the second scenario is far more scary. If you let a bull in a china shop who is to blame when everything is destroyed? Surely its not the bull's fault but then surely the bull would never be let out? - and I dont see advocates of the 'lack of facilities' argument suggesting 'before the facts' lifetime imprisonments to protect society from criminals who are left with no choices?

As Reloc said, society needs to be rebuilt from the bottom up to help the most vunerable, those likely of making the wrong choices, but choices they are and as the left hand gives help, the right hand must be there to protect the rest of society (probably the fourth purpose of prison).

I believe prison is a consequence of your own choices. If you can't do the time, don't do the crime. People in Mountjoy are complaining about conditions they forced upon themselves.

PS. Please don't argue on behalf of those sent to prison for not paying fines, thats a separate issue

Annnnnnd...... done