Is there much foul play in the amateur game?

SuprSi

I've never played rugby, but have loved being a spectator for ages. I always figured that the amateur game must be very difficult to referee and with the recent increase in eye-gouging incidents, it had me wondering whether this kind of thing happens much away from the TV cameras, where you're more likely to get away with it.

Like in every sport there are undoubtedly a few bad eggs, but for those of you that play the sport, have you come across much of this type of behaviour?

csm

I was also wondering this this morning. You hear a lot about the culture of 'Do what you can get away with and shake hands afterwards' in the amateur game in the 70s/80s, but is it still around today? Is eye-gouging accepted as part and parcel of the game at lower levels?

De Deraco

Not accepted at all... the only time I have seen it happen is down to accidents in a ruck or maul never seen an intentional gouge.

Generally at amature level if the ref doesnt see it one of your team mates will.. and if a match desends it to alot of foul play punching nd stuff the ref wont hesitate to issue cards and if that didnt work they would just call it off.

Kenteach

I have never been involved in a game where gouging took place, although I did hear of one incident about 5 or 6 years ago (ref missed it, team mates didn't, nuff said!). Its a complete no-no at any level of the game.

Plenty of other foul play at amateur level though.

shoutman

J4 level foul play of this nature generally doesn't happen. I'd even go as far as to say you'd really have a lot of fisty cuffs in a match at all.
It does happen, but not as much as you see in the professional game.

anonymous_joe

Even as a 12 year old I took a few kicks, punches and stamps, and I wasn't on a high level team at all.

Blisterman

I think eye gouging is a completely different level, to the occasional punch being thrown.

Never seen it myself. Have seen biting a couple of times though.

dan719

It's a lot more prevalent than some people like to admit. I've seen gouging on a good few occasions, usually leading to all hell breaking loose admittedly.

I think I have been involved in six matches in the last three years that were abandoned, one because the ref started throwing punches at an U-18 player. The player was banned for foul play, his club got the points for the match, and nothing more was said. Very rarely a game goes without at least a minor bust up. This isn't a criticism, I love playing the game, and has I have said before, would be considered by most to 'play on the edge'. I think physicality is part and parcel of the sport tbh, and sometimes that spills over.

Kenteach

dan719 wrote: »

It's a lot more prevalent than some people like to admit. I've seen gouging on a good few occasions, usually leading to all hell breaking loose admittedly.

I think I have been involved in six matches in the last three years that were abandoned, one because the ref started throwing punches at an U-18 player. The player was banned for foul play, his club got the points for the match, and nothing more was said. Very rarely a game goes without at least a minor bust up. This isn't a criticism, I love playing the game, and has I have said before, would be considered by most to 'play on the edge'. I think physicality is part and parcel of the sport tbh, and sometimes that spills over.

I used to play in a lot of abandoned matches. But in more recent times, the last 5 or 6 years or so, can't remember one being abandoned. Don't know if its to do with better coaching (we're much better able to take a hit now), better referees (I doubt it!!) or tougher sanctions. Either way, it feels like a tougher but fairer game than when I started playing adult rugby.

Downtime

I personally think there is more foul play (I presume here we are talking about dangerous play) in the amateur game than in the professional game. If you look at the definition of dangerous play under law you get the following:

(a) Punching or striking. Seen this a few times this season.
(b) Stamping or trampling. "I was rucking ref" yeah right
(c) Kicking. Not a lot of this
(d) Tripping. Seen a few incidents of this
(e) Dangerous tackling. Stiff arm tackles and tackling without the use of arms is definitely on the rise
(f) Playing an opponent without the ball. Except in a scrum, ruck or maul, a player must not hold, or push, or charge into, or obstruct an opponent not carrying the ball. A lot of this goes on, often ignored or unnoticed
(g) Dangerous charging. Not a huge amount of this
(h) Tackling the jumper in the air. Happens maybe once every 2/3 games
(i) Lifting a player from the ground and dropping or driving that player into the ground whilst that player’s feet are still off the ground such that the player’s head and/or upper body come into contact with the ground first is dangerous play. Had this twice in my last 2 games
(j) Dangerous play in a scrum, ruck or maul. Not a lot of this going on - sometimes players arrive off their feet without the use of arms
(k) Retaliation. If there is a punch up there is invariably retaliation
(l) Acts contrary to good sportsmanship. A player must not do anything that is against the spirit of good sportsmanship in the playing enclosure. Every game this happens
(m) Misconduct while the ball is out of play. A few isolated incidents
(n) Late-charging the kicker. Almost every match
(o) Flying Wedge and Cavalry Charge. Not seen this in years

I've also seen gouging or been notified of gouging every season. I even caught a guy last year. I think there is less foul play or incidents of foul play per professional match than there is in an amateur game due to TV and the likelihood of getting caught in the professional game. There are more eyes on the game than during a Saturday or Sunday run about.

Tim Robbins

Downtime wrote: »

I've also seen gouging or been notified of gouging every season. I even caught a guy last year.

Well done. What sort of the suspension did the culprit get?

Bod13

While I have heard players (from my team and others) claim they have been gouged once or twice during a junior game I have never seen any evidence of this and it has never happened to me personally. Yeah a couple of fights break out now and then and a couple of punches get thrown but it is never anything serious from my experience

hobochris

I was watching Guinness J2's vs old Wesley J2 on Saturday, Guinness won the match 21-5, I noticed the more Guinness were putting on the score bored the dirtier Wesley were getting.

High Tackles,Late bindings(i.e. grabbing players after the balls gone), member of Wesley's sideline coming onto the pitch to antagonize the Guinness pack and a few sly punches being thrown.

Then a few un-sports-like sore loser type comments coming from the Wesley sideline during the tunnel at the end of the game.

The behavior from the side line especially has no place in Irish rugby.

Pixelcraft

I believe there was a lot of bad blood left over from their first fixture, which ended up with both clubs ticket allocations being hit. We're in the same league, and I know which of those two teams has the rep for aggression.

dub_skav

I've been gouged twice myself. One of those times may have been accidental, but the other was intentional.

One of my teammates was bitten in a scrum, fairly nasty.

A good deal of sly stamping/punching/kneeing goes on, but it's nothing over the top if you ask me. Gouging and biting on the other hand are filthy

hobochris

Pixelcraft wrote: »

We're in the same league, and I know which of those two teams has the rep for aggression.

Care to elaborate?

lazzday

Playing at Under 19 level, the sportsmanship of most teams i usually high enough. But playing for a country team against a bunch of townie fags, things sometimes do get out of hand! I've never seen a incident where gouging has happened, but i've seen (and received) just as bad! Last season on tour in Munster, 5 players were sent off when a scrap broke out and the game had to be abandoned when the Ref received a sly box from someone on the sideline(not one of ours thank god!)!

Pixelcraft

hobochris wrote: »

Care to elaborate?

Not really, you can read between the lines

Tim Robbins

lazzday wrote: »

Playing at Under 19 level, the sportsmanship of most teams i usually high enough. But playing for a country team against a bunch of townie fags, things sometimes do get out of hand! I've never seen a incident where gouging has happened, but i've seen (and received) just as bad! Last season on tour in Munster, 5 players were sent off when a scrap broke out and the game had to be abandoned when the Ref received a sly box from someone on the sideline(not one of ours thank god!)!

Mate, welcome to the forum. But you can't be referring to other teams with that language on this forum.

hobochris

Pixelcraft wrote: »

Not really, you can read between the lines

Well going on Saturdays display I assume you mean Wesley.

Pixelcraft

Didn't see that match as I was playing another

propsrule

Pixelcraft wrote: »

I believe there was a lot of bad blood left over from their first fixture, which ended up with both clubs ticket allocations being hit. We're in the same league, and I know which of those two teams has the rep for aggression.

Could not agree more, ive been involved in teams that have played both teams before and of these 2 teams there is one, that has a far bigger reputation throughout Dublin for aggression/indiscipline (take your choice)

I was involved in a match where 2 players were sent off , 1 for a head butt , and 3 others were sin binned . Their coach , when the ref sent off the players for the head butt, was heard roaring words to the effect" its only a bang of the head" .

No , Im not a wesley member, am no longer involved in J2 rugby but I would imagine if you took a poll of rugby players in dublin as to which of these 2 clubs would be seen as more aggressive/indisciplined, I would have a fair idea as to the result

BTW- i also think that there shouldnt be club names etc thrown about, the topic isnt about which clubs etc is dirtier etc .

Risteard

lazzday wrote: »

Playing at Under 19 level, the sportsmanship of most teams i usually high enough. But playing for a country team against a bunch of townie fags, things sometimes do get out of hand! I've never seen a incident where gouging has happened, but i've seen (and received) just as bad! Last season on tour in Munster, 5 players were sent off when a scrap broke out and the game had to be abandoned when the Ref received a sly box from someone on the sideline(not one of ours thank god!)!

Maybe that's the reason it gets out of hand?

Anyway, the worst that's happened in a match involving me is a good old punch up. That's happened a few times.

Other than that no. I get raked whilst I'm in the ruck quite a bit but I accept it as I'm just making a nuisance of myself anyway. Haven't been in any match with gouging/biting thankfully.

lazzday

Sorry, please excuse my language! But there is a major rivalry between town teams a country teams in Connacht!

There's nothing to bad about an old-fashioned punch-up, but alot of the time they get a bit out of hand, especially when the sideline gets involved!

Myself, as a fly-half, am subject to a lot of dangerous play(ie. late tackles, high tackles, obstruction when chasing kicks, tackled in the air, punches, spear tackles etc.) and i have come to accept it as part of the game!

lobber

Have been on the end of some over zealous attention being a scrumhalf, but you have to get used to and expect it, flankers want to get you at every turn. I'd be the same I suppose. I remember getting a few slaps one day off a hooker in front of the ref and when I complained to him his response was cold 'well you have been annoying him all day!'
When playing u.16 I gouged an opponent completely by mistake - was passing the ball when he came in to tackle from the side and he got ball and hands in the face and my finger went into his eye. The sensation felt horrible and was a bit disturbed by how far my finger went in tbh. he was ok after it thankfully. Can't imagine doing it with malice or intent to anyone.

twinytwo

moslty of what i have seen would be late/high tackles or not using the arms the odd puch etc never seen a gouge.. can never see why anyone would want to stick their finger in someone eye.. if u have a problem with a player either smash him or man up and hit him but a sneaky finger in the eye when he is in a ruck or whatever is just ... so so wrong.

A buddy of mine was caught in a ruck arms and most of body pinned and some wack job on the other team goes ape **** stamping on his head/face... led to one of the most epic fights iv ever seen.

anonymous_joe

twinytwo wrote: »

moslty of what i have seen would be late/high tackles or not using the arms the odd puch etc never seen a gouge.. can never see why anyone would want to stick their finger in someone eye.. if u have a problem with a player either smash him or man up and hit him but a sneaky finger in the eye when he is in a ruck or whatever is just ... so so wrong.

A buddy of mine was caught in a ruck arms and most of body pinned and some wack job on the other team goes ape **** stamping on his head/face... led to one of the most epic fights iv ever seen.

A lad I played with donkey's years ago was good enough to play for the first team (and we had a very good one then) but had no interest in serious rugby or the culture that went with it. Anyway, he played for the worst team he could and at times would basically be guilty of taking the píss. He could and frequently did outrun teams. Doesn't exactly engender good will towards you amongst your opposition...

Moreover, where there's the dislike of being taken the piss out of it/made to look a fool, there's also the idea of putting a player out of the game. If you can get away with a gouge or punch or whatever on the opposition's best player, it can become much easier to beat them. People will do awful things to win after all.

BIG DOG 82

hobochris wrote: »

I was watching Guinness J2's vs old Wesley J2 on Saturday, Guinness won the match 21-5, I noticed the more Guinness were putting on the score bored the dirtier Wesley were getting.

High Tackles,Late bindings(i.e. grabbing players after the balls gone), member of Wesley's sideline coming onto the pitch to antagonize the Guinness pack and a few sly punches being thrown.

Then a few un-sports-like sore loser type comments coming from the Wesley sideline during the tunnel at the end of the game.

The behavior from the side line especially has no place in Irish rugby.

Foul play AGAINST Guinness ? !!!