Formula 1's greatest Drivers

frostie500

Autosport just launched the results of their poll of grand prix drivers to find the top drivers of all time.

The results were:
76=: Peter Collins, Luigi Villoresi, Mark Webber, Mike Hailwood, Pedro Rodriguez, Eddie Irvine, Andrea De Cesaris and Kazuki Nakajima.
75: Pedro Lamy
74: Tonio Liuzzi
73: Harry Schell
72: Stefano Modena
71: Carlos Pace
70: Wolfgang von Trips
69: Maurice Trintignant
68: Hans Herrmann
67: Derek Warwick
66: Johnny Herbert
65: Jean-Pierre Beltoise
64: Chris Amon
63: Aguri Suzuki
62: Denny Hulme
61: Bruce McLaren
60: Tom Pryce
59: Felipe Massa
58: Jo Siffert
57: Alex Zanardi
56: Tony Maggs
55: Henri Pescarolo
54: Mike Hawthorn
53: Elio De Angelis
52: Tony Brooks
51: Juan Pablo Montoya
50: Michele Alboreto
49: Jacques Laffite
48: Lorenzo Bandini
47: Jody Scheckter
46: Piero Taruffi (I'd never heard of this guy!)
45: Damon Hill
44: Didier Pironi
43: Robert Kubica
42: Jean Alesi
41: Jacques Villeneuve
40: Jacky Ickx
39: Riccardo Patrese
38: Jean Behra
37: Gerhard Berger
36: Clay Regazzoni
35: Stefan Bellof
34: Carlos Reutemann
33: Phil Hill
32: Giuseppe Farina
31: Alan Jones
30: Jenson Button
29: Francois Cervert
28: Dan Gurney
27: Jose Froilan Gonzalez
26: Sebastian Vettel
25: Keke Rosberg
24: James Hunt
23: John Surtees
22: Kimi Raikkonen
21: Graham Hill
20: Mario Andretti
19: Ronnie Petterson
18: Jack Brabham
17: Lewis Hamilton
16: Alberto Ascari
15: Mika Hakkinen
14: Jochen Rindt
13: Nelson Piquet (Snr!)
12: Emerson Fittipaldi
11: Nigel Mansell
10: Gilles Villeneuve
9: Fernando Alonso
8: Sir Stirling Moss
7: Niki Lauda
6: Sir Jackie Stewart
5: Jim Clark
4: Alain Prost
3: Juan Manuel Fangio
2: Michael Schumacher
1: Ayrton Senna

wyrn

Personally I would have included Jacques Villeneuve.

(I think Jenson Button was placed too high)

Ah ok, I didn't see JV the first time. He should be placed higher (Jenson should be lowered).

frostie500

wyrn wrote: »

Personally I would have included Jacques Villeneuve.

(I think Jenson Button was placed too high)

Ah ok, I didn't see JV the first time. He should be placed higher (Jenson should be lowered).

Yeah I found the whole list, gotta say theres some suprises on the full list. Look at Zanardi, Tonio Liuzi and Aguri Suzuki!

wyrn

To be fair, it's not a great/fair list. F1 technology has advanced to much - higher speeds etc.....

Interesting all the same. Delighted Johnny Herbert made it, he was always my "awww" driver. He had the worst luck.

frostie500

wyrn wrote: »

To be fair, it's not a great/fair list

Yeah its not really fair, I think they were just doing this one from a drivers perspective. One with contributers(writers, comms, team bosses and drivers) would have been a lot better. I dont expect that the drivers know an enormous amount of what goes on during races outside of their cockpits.

Not that I ever put an ounce of store in these lists.
But surely Pedro Lamy is a joke!

amacachi

Mansell should be in the top ten.

frostie500

amacachi wrote: »

Mansell should be in the top ten.

At Alonso or Villeneuve's expense? It's tough to know where Villeneuve should be ranked in a list like this. Anytime I watch races from his era you cant help but be amazed by him and think 'what a talent'

IM0

wyrn wrote: »

Personally I would have included Jacques Villeneuve.

(I think Jenson Button was placed too high)

Ah ok, I didn't see JV the first time. He should be placed higher (Jenson should be lowered).

If the poal was legally binding yes, which it isnt, its silley season

smooch71

Hey!

Why the hell isn't Nelson Piquet Jnr on this?

Top Dog

They rank Montoya higher than Massa? Strangest poll ever!

G-Money

Senna Number 1, that's what I wanted to see. Still my favourite driver. I must go look for a good book on him.

De Hipster

First and second spots get my vote!

I also think that there's not enough historical accuracy & far too much recognition of current drivers...

who the fug

Schumacher would never be my number two, because he never really had any great rivals ,Senna always had Prost or Mansell to keep him honest

can't argue with the number one

smooch71

who the fug wrote: »

Schumacher would never be my number two, because he never really had any great rivals ,Senna always had Prost or Mansell to keep him honest

can't argue with the number one

Do you mean apart from Villeneuve, Hakkinen, Raikkonen and Alonso?

who the fug

smooch71 wrote: »

Do you mean apart from Villeneuve, Hakkinen, Raikkonen and Alonso?

Did you ever see any of those in the same team as Schumacher?

enzo7

I think the top 10 looks pretty ok not in the order doe, i prob go with

1)Schumacher= with out a doubt the greatest f1 driver how anyone can argue with dat is beyond me.
2)fangio
3)clark
4)prost
5)senna
6)moss
7)lauda
8)alonso
9)villenuve senior
10)stewart

After that it kinda a lucky dip, mansell 11 that surley is a joke if there ever was one:D

Greyfox

enzo7 wrote: »

1)Schumacher= with out a doubt the greatest f1 driver how anyone can argue with dat is beyond me.

Schumacher is by a mile the greatest F1 driver of all time and by the time we all pass away he'll still be the most successful F1 driver ever! If Senna was alive today he wouldn't even be worthy of lacing Schumacher's boots

G-Money

Greyfox wrote: »

Schumacher is by a mile the greatest F1 driver of all time and by the time we all pass away he'll still be the most successful F1 driver ever! If Senna was alive today he wouldn't even be worthy of lacing Schumacher's boots

I couldn't disagree more. Schumacher is great, 7 world titles does indeed speak volumes. But I can't help but feel he always wanted a lesser driver as the number 2 in the team. As someone else said, Senna went up against Prost for two seasons in the same team.

Also, don't forget Senna at Donington 93 where he handed everyone their asses on the first lap, Schumacher included.

rua1972

If Senna didn't die that day in may '94, he would have won more championships. Maybe not 7, but still. A 3 times worldchampion not worthy of lacing boots? I don't think this discussion Senna-Schumacher will ever finish. Even if Senna is clearly the greatest ever.

FerrariRed

I think Schumacher and Senna are always going to be 1 or 2 in any of these lists, and while my personal opinion is that Schumacher was the more complete driver and should be in the top spot, I do agree Senna had more raw speed. It really is a debate that will never disappear (and give countless hours more discussion to motorsport fanatics...:))

An interesting list, though I am confused as to 'Monster' Montoya's positioning above some of the others on the list. He wouldn't have gotten my vote anyway!

rohatch

grandmaster wrote: »

I couldn't disagree more. Schumacher is great, 7 world titles does indeed speak volumes. But I can't help but feel he always wanted a lesser driver as the number 2 in the team. As someone else said, Senna went up against Prost for two seasons in the same team.

Also, don't forget Senna at Donington 93 where he handed everyone their asses on the first lap, Schumacher included.

Schumacher would have beaten any team mate.

Look at the testing times in early 08, Schu did less than 15 laps after being out of the car 14 months. He was quickest. Kimi had to do nearly 80 laps to beat the time by less than a tenth.

rohatch

FerrariRed wrote: »

I think Schumacher and Senna are always going to be 1 or 2 in any of these lists, and while my personal opinion is that Schumacher was the more complete driver and should be in the top spot, I do agree Senna had more raw speed. It really is a debate that will never disappear (and give countless hours more discussion to motorsport fanatics...:))

Well said

Here is my list of honourable mentions from watching GP's since 78 or 79

51: Juan Pablo Montoya - nigel mansell
44: Didier Pironi
42: Jean Alesi
37: Gerhard Berger
31: Alan Jones
28: Dan Gurney
26: Sebastian Vettel
25: Keke Rosberg
24: James Hunt
23: John Surtees
22: Kimi Raikkonen
21: Graham Hill
20: Mario Andretti
19: Ronnie Petterson
18: Jack Brabham
16: Alberto Ascari
14: Jochen Rindt

My top ten not in any particular order. However if you were a betting man then schu delivers every time.

10: Gilles Villeneuve
17: Lewis Hamilton
8: Sir Stirling Moss
7: Niki Lauda
6: Sir Jackie Stewart
5: Jim Clark
4: Alain Prost
3: Juan Manuel Fangio
2: Michael Schumacher
1: Ayrton Senna

Oblomov

It depends on the criteria for votes, is a world champion considered better than a non World Champ, does the number of Grand prix wins effect the position, length of time racing..against number of wins..

Does it reflect the age groups, more younger voters unfamiliar with the history and only aware of the modern crop of drivers? Should there be a deduction for 'cheats' ?
Should consideration be given if the driver only achieved any form of 'greatness' with only one make of car?

Should 'marks' be deducted for only driving in F1, regardless of the title.

Or is it just on the fanciful whims of readers.

enzo7

rua1972 wrote: »

If Senna didn't die that day in may '94, he would have won more championships. Maybe not 7, but still. A 3 times worldchampion not worthy of lacing boots? I don't think this discussion Senna-Schumacher will ever finish. Even if Senna is clearly the greatest ever.

I honestly dont think he would have, schumacher had him rattled in 94. Senna was a fantastic talent but would he have been held in such high regard if we hadnt lost him that day??? just a thought.

I also think the argument about schumacher needing to be team no.1 to win competely stupid. What team in their right mind would agree to letting a driver be no.1 if he actually wasnt their best driver. All teams operate this way the only diffrence is schumacher had it on paper.

shamwari

grandmaster wrote: »

don't forget Senna at Donington 93 where he handed everyone their asses on the first lap, Schumacher included.

I agree. I hated Senna, but that lap was like something you'd drive in your dreams. T'was truly superb !

enzo7

grandmaster wrote: »

I couldn't disagree more. Schumacher is great, 7 world titles does indeed speak volumes. But I can't help but feel he always wanted a lesser driver as the number 2 in the team. As someone else said, Senna went up against Prost for two seasons in the same team.

Also, don't forget Senna at Donington 93 where he handed everyone their asses on the first lap, Schumacher included.

The guy won 7 championships its not his fault there was no prost around to be his team-mate. Considering how hard its to win one championship (just ask kimi) i think its incrediable he won 7.

In schumacher defence he didnt have traction control at donington like senna did, still a great race doe.

rohatch

enzo7 wrote: »

The guy won 7 championships its not his fault there was no prost around to be his team-mate. Considering how hard its to win one championship (just ask kimi) i think its incrediable he won 7.

In schumacher defence he didnt have traction control at donington like senna did, still a great race doe.

He should have won the 98 and 06 championship too. Lapped DC braking in Spa, and an engine failure while leading the japanese race, he would have been 2 or 4 points ahead of alonso going into brazil.

kimi didn't win a championship, he was donated one by mclarens last 2 races in 07.

EvilMonkey

rohatch wrote: »

kimi didn't win a championship, he was donated one by mclarens last 2 races in 07.

That's a stupid statement.
In that case in 08 Hamilton didn't win Ferrari donated the title when Massa had a handful of retirements and bad results.
in 03 Schumacher was donated the title when Kimi had a few retirements and didn't finish on the podium in a few races.

The championship is over the entire season not the last few races. :rolleyes:

enzo7

kimi wasnt donated a championship more he fumbled upon it. Either way he didnt exactly do it in style anyway.

amacachi

enzo7 wrote: »

kimi wasnt donated a championship more he fumbled upon it. Either way he didnt exactly do it in style anyway.

Christ, so Kimi wins by coming on strong at the end of a season and he "fumbled upon it", Button wins by being strong at the start and according to some he "stuttered to it". Kimi won 3 of the last 4 races of the season and was on the podium for 10 of the last 11 races, and was on pole for the other but had mechanical problems. I mean for God's sake what do people want? Shall we just have one person win every single race? Funnily enough I don't think many people would be happy with that either.

thegoth

grandmaster wrote: »

I couldn't disagree more. Schumacher is great, 7 world titles does indeed speak volumes. But I can't help but feel he always wanted a lesser driver as the number 2 in the team. As someone else said, Senna went up against Prost for two seasons in the same team.

Also, don't forget Senna at Donington 93 where he handed everyone their asses on the first lap, Schumacher included.

This argument shouldnt be used anymore.

1) He will willing to come back from a 3 and a half year retirement and go against Kimi, who many regarded at the time as the fastest guy in F1

2) Is is LIKELY coming back against Rosberg who is as fast as anyone out there. He kept Webber honest in his Rookie year. Webber in turn did well against Vetell this year

3) I think we all see now that Massa was a much faster driver than people thought when he was against Schmuacher

and I will borrow this

Schumacher would have beaten any team mate.

Look at the testing times in early 08, Schu did less than 15 laps after being out of the car 14 months. He was quickest. Kimi had to do nearly 80 laps to beat the time by less than a tenth.

enzo7

amacachi wrote: »

Christ, so Kimi wins by coming on strong at the end of a season and he "fumbled upon it", Button wins by being strong at the start and according to some he "stuttered to it". Kimi won 3 of the last 4 races of the season and was on the podium for 10 of the last 11 races, and was on pole for the other but had mechanical problems. I mean for God's sake what do people want? Shall we just have one person win every single race? Funnily enough I don't think many people would be happy with that either.

Relax his not worth having a heart attack over!!! I wasnt impressed by kimis championship maybe i have higher expectations than you but winning 1 race at the start of the season and the not winnning another till aug isnt what i class as doing it in style. What most people want is a driver to consistintley win through out the year, to fight for the title. I think he deserved that title because alonso or hamilton def didnt with their child like behaviour. As for button ,his champion fair play to him .

Anyway the reason i mentioned kimi in the first place is to make the point that schumachers 7 titles shouldnt be dismissed so easily considering how hard kimi found it to win just 1.

thegoth

I think that Kimi's and Buttons title wins were in very different situations.

In 2007, no car had the dominance that Brawn had for 6 races this year.

Had Button competed this years championship in a car that was close to another car in terms of performance, like Ferrari and McLaren were on 07 then the championship winner may well have been different.

But Button is world champion. Fair play to him. Everyone here agrees he isn't the best driver in F1. But he did what was required to win, making some good overtaking moves on the way. Fair play. Roll on the battle of Great Britain next year

rohatch

EvilMonkey wrote: »

That's a stupid statement.

Tone it down mate, we are all adult fans here.

EvilMonkey wrote: »

In that case in 08 Hamilton didn't win Ferrari donated the title when Massa had a handful of retirements and bad results.
in 03 Schumacher was donated the title when Kimi had a few retirements and didn't finish on the podium in a few races.

The championship is over the entire season not the last few races. :rolleyes:

The point is that mclaren left hamilton out until his tyres were shredded and then they waited 3 more laps, he fell off into the kitty litter when he only need 6th place to win with 1 race to spare.

08 massa blew up in hungary, and the new pit system in signapore. This is not the same as sitting watching your car lose 7 seconds a lap for 3 laps and finally calling him in.

Mclaren donated the race to kimi. At the time I had considered that bernie would never allow a rookie win the championship in his 1st year.

EvilMonkey

So despite the fact that Kimi earned more points than Hamilton over the season because Kimi had his problems earlier on in the season, and McLaren had their problems in the last two races, they donated it to kimi.

I totally agree that McLaren ****ed winning that championship but I dont see how kimi didn't earn it, he was after all in a position to take advantage of the McLaren **** ups and finished with more wins.

frostie500

rohatch wrote: »

At the time I had considered that bernie would never allow a rookie win the championship in his 1st year.

Must have been why Villeneuve's wheel fell off in 96 as well....

rohatch

EvilMonkey wrote: »

So despite the fact that Kimi earned more points than Hamilton over the season because Kimi had his problems earlier on in the season, and McLaren had their problems in the last two races, they donated it to kimi.

I totally agree that McLaren ****ed winning that championship but I dont see how kimi didn't earn it, he was after all in a position to take advantage of the McLaren **** ups and finished with more wins.

This is not the same as sitting on the pitwall watching your car lose 7 seconds a lap for 3 laps before finally calling him in.

17 points ahead with 2 races to go, who in their right mind would allow that to happen. We now know that teams are willing to crash one car to benefit the other, or force a driver to concede a position, we know williams and macca collaborated to let mika win after the JV and schumy incident.

bladespin

Surtees is top in my book, no-one else ever managed to win the world championships on bike and in a car.

I only wish Valentino Rossi would make the jump, I'm almost certain he could do it too.

EvilMonkey

rohatch wrote: »

This is not the same as sitting on the pitwall watching your car lose 7 seconds a lap for 3 laps before finally calling him in.

17 points ahead with 2 races to go, who in their right mind would allow that to happen. We now know that teams are willing to crash one car to benefit the other, or force a driver to concede a position, we know williams and macca collaborated to let mika win after the JV and schumy incident.

McLaren have a history of not making the right call when the pressure is on,
Remember they left Kimi out on badly flat spotted tyres that eventually destroyed the suspension and caused him to crash out when he had enough of a lead to come in and change tyres and still be on the podium.

But your right, Ron feeling guilty that Kimi never won a WC at McLaren and knowing it would make Bernie happy, sabotaged his golden boy in the last two races so the former driver and biggest rival could win. :rolleyes:

rohatch

EvilMonkey wrote: »

McLaren have a history of not making the right call when the pressure is on,
Remember they left Kimi out on badly flat spotted tyres that eventually destroyed the suspension and caused him to crash out when he had enough of a lead to come in and change tyres and still be on the podium.

Kimi flat spotted his own tyres and Kimi decided to stay out, until the last lap, spectacular crash too. Good job he was in the lead at the time. can you imagine the damage if he was mid pack.

EvilMonkey wrote: »

But your right, Ron feeling guilty that Kimi never won a WC at McLaren and knowing it would make Bernie happy, sabotaged his golden boy in the last two races so the former driver and biggest rival could win. :rolleyes:

Address this please

This is not the same as a ROOKIE winning the WDC 1st attempt.
17 points ahead with 2 races to go, only needing 6th place, while RD sitting on the pitwall watching his car lose 7 seconds a lap for 3 laps before finally calling him in.

What other possible explanation is there.

Last year would you have believed that a team would deliberately crash a car, cause a safety car, and then let their lead driver win.