Is good will coming to an end?

bdoo

So many schools operate as well as they do because of the good will of teachers.

Is it time that the good will ran out and we started concentrating only on our teaching?

Should students suffer because we're taking a pay cut? or is not staying back every week in the pissing rain to train with a football team ( or choir or art club or whatever) really going to affect their lives that much?

dg647

I really do think that the good will is running out. People are going to think twice about training teams, organising choirs, plays, drama etc. I can see it going down the line of come in, teach your class, go home.

Coolio

I think alot of those involved in sport etc are doing it because they have a passion for that activity and are probably involved in the same thing outside of school so I don't really see them abandoning that.

Where good will might disappear is in other issues that arise during the year. For example, where staff are expected to fundraise to get basics.

I think as teachers if we all said to parents and the govt: "OK, we'll run the school on only the money the dept is giving us and watch it crash and burn" It will show up the whole funding thing in schools to be totally inadequate without teachers and parents councils in a constant fundraising mode...

TheDriver

oh how I love the cynics coming out in this forum, if you have nothing constructive to say, then why bother.
For anyone who moans on about teachers, give it a try and while you do, remember its not easy to discipline a bold child if their parent doesn't agree......
From a goodwill perspective, then yes I think it is coming to an end which is same with nurses and guards etc, people do a hard days work and again we are hit which seems somewhat unfair, I personally don't want to be treated by nurses who are peed off with their conditions and only working away for whatever pay they can get.

peanuthead

For some reason everyone seems to think they can judge teachers and their job performance so accurately. Why is that? Is it because you all think that just because you've been in a classroom you know everything there is to know about the profession? Would you barge into an operating theatre and start criticising a surgeon on how he was performing heart surgery?

I suppose with morale being so low in schools it will be the one thing most affected alright.

spurious

Posts against the charter have been removed.
A repeat performance will get a ban, OldFFail.

Stewie Griffin

Yeah, I have to agree. Morale is low at the moment.

Speaking personally, it's not so much the pay cuts themselves (although they obviously do contribute to the negative vibe). It's the feeling of being undervalued by our employers. We have little incentive to be good at our jobs- the government don't care either way. numbers on a page, we are....

The consolation is in the fact that our students do appreciate when we work hard for them. It may merely be moral compensation but at least it matters to them that we try.

ntlbell

peanuthead wrote: »

For some reason everyone seems to think they can judge teachers and their job performance so accurately. Why is that? Is it because you all think that just because you've been in a classroom you know everything there is to know about the profession? Would you barge into an operating theatre and start criticising a surgeon on how he was performing heart surgery?

I suppose with morale being so low in schools it will be the one thing most affected alright.

If you sit watching someone doing a job for 13 years for 6 hours a day and couldn't construct an opinion on the job there must be something wrong somewhere no?

oh well

I actually feel the general good will of teachers is long gone apart from a few - and in every job and area of life there is always a few good, a few bad, etc etc. 3 schools in my area the teachers used to always help the parents' associations with fundraising for classroom items - be it essentials or luxuries which the teachers had requested. However, the teaching staff stopped helping with the bag packing, carol singing, sales of work, organising concerts about 5 years ago and when asked now to assist, we usually get the comment that they are too busy. Now, I'm not bashing all teachers here - just the ones I've come into contact with as a parent P/A and BOMs for many years across both primary and secondary so it would be approx 36 teachers. Out of that, there are only 2 or maybe 3 at a real push, who ever help out and they are the same two who do the GAA team training, the bag packing and the bucket shaking at carol singing times.

However, good will in the general community is going downhill as welll. It is very hard these days to get people to help with anything volunteer - the youth club, community games, girl guides/scouts, etc. you will find that its the same few people in a community who are leaders/helpers in so many of the volunteer activities. I do 3 volunteer activities apart from the school PA and BOM - not because my kids are involved in them, some of the activities I do just because I was brought up to give a bit back. That is so badly missing these days. Its not just teachers or nurses or any job or profession - it has become life.

peanuthead

ntlbell wrote: »

If you sit watching someone doing a job for 13 years for 6 hours a day and couldn't construct an opinion on the job there must be something wrong somewhere no?

If you sit watching and making opinions on your teacher for six hours of the day for 13 years I would assume you did pretty badly in exams.

This mentality is the one I just can't stand. When you are 4-17 you have no idea of the many things that make up the role of teacher. You have your own opinions on what a good/bad teacher is, but thats about it, and again your opinions are based on the type of person you were at the time. Surely your common sense and intelligence would be higher now than it was then, no?

Stewie Griffin

That might be a bit of a generalisation there, oh well. There was a concert in our school last week where 25 teachers (out of approx 50) helped out on the night. It varies from school to school and the feeling was that there that we didn't want to let the students down.

I concede though that the general trend will be towards less goodwill in the future. Like I said, when I know a student appreciates the work I do for them, it keeps me going.

oh well

Stewie Griffin wrote: »

That might be a bit of a generalisation there, oh well. There was a concert in our school last week where 25 teachers (out of approx 50) helped out on the night. It varies from school to school and the feeling was that there that we didn't want to let the students down.
.

I'm aware there is generalisation there and all kinds of schools/personnel are different and thats why I did clarify that it was just in relation to the 3 schools I'm involved in, but I stand by my comments on the the general downturn in goodwill and volunteerism in society. I don't think its just in the teaching profession goodwill for the little bit extra has gone. Many of my kids' teachers have been brilliant in the classroom and I really do appreciate that - mind you though thats what I would have expected of them, same as I expect my surgeon or painter or mechanic or whatever to do a brilliant job they are paid to do (I do have high standards). I have very very rarely commented negatively about any teacher or the way they teach in the classroom. I do value and appreciate them for their classroom work.

ntlbell

peanuthead wrote: »

Surely your common sense and intelligence would be higher now than it was then, no?

I would have thought that's exactly why one can now make a much more informed opinion about how they did their job? or didn't as the case maybe? no?

peanuthead

ntlbell wrote: »

I would have thought that's exactly why one can now make a much more informed opinion about how they did their job? or didn't as the case maybe? no?

No sorry I don't think so. You seem to think that it is no different being on either end of the teacher's desk, well it is very different. In actual fact, it is only now that I am a teacher, and I understand the type of training that teachers undergo with regard to psychology etc.. that I can actually see that while I thought some of my teachers were a bit mad or stupid, that in fact they were working very hard to be good at their jobs. I don't think that someone who has not got some training in some relevant area can make a judgement on how to manage/teach a class.

By the way I re-read over my post above and while I am obviously disagreeing with you I was a bit rude about it, I'm sorry, having a crap time of it at the moment so a bit snappy on the keys, my own prob.

ntlbell

peanuthead wrote: »

No sorry I don't think so. You seem to think that it is no different being on either end of the teacher's desk, well it is very different. In actual fact, it is only now that I am a teacher, and I understand the type of training that teachers undergo with regard to psychology etc.. that I can actually see that while I thought some of my teachers were a bit mad or stupid, that in fact they were working very hard to be good at their jobs. I don't think that someone who has not got some training in some relevant area can make a judgement on how to manage/teach a class.

By the way I re-read over my post above and while I am obviously disagreeing with you I was a bit rude about it, I'm sorry, having a crap time of it at the moment so a bit snappy on the keys, my own prob.

I'm not suggesting it's as easy to be a student as it is a teacher.

I'm merley suggesting that after watching someone do thier job for x amount of years, it's pretty easy to look back on what is involved in managing that amount of kids in one clas AND give them an education at the same time.

It's also very easy to spot (now) who was good at that job and who was not.

For example some people who thought x was a terrible teacher in later years will state they now realise they were one of the best because your right at that age your perception of good and bad is different.But now you have the insight to evaluate the expirience objectivley

You have a problem with people with my way of thinking.

I <joe duffy> as a parent and a student</joe duffy> have a problem with teachers and in my own case lecturers who simply cannot teach.

I don't need to be a teacher to spot a bad teacher. The same way I don't need to be a dentist to spot a bad dentist.

But (this is probably not the thread for it) I do feel a lot of it could be corrected by the system and how people are taught rather than re-seating the teacher.

Toto Wolfcastle

ntlbell wrote: »

But (this is probably not the thread for it)

This.

This thread is about whether teachers will continue with extra-curricular activities, etc, and not about how whether non-teachers understand what the job entails or not. Off-topic discussion can be taken to PM or another thread can be created. Thank you.

rainbowtrout

oh well wrote: »

I'm aware there is generalisation there and all kinds of schools/personnel are different and thats why I did clarify that it was just in relation to the 3 schools I'm involved in, but I stand by my comments on the the general downturn in goodwill and volunteerism in society. I don't think its just in the teaching profession goodwill for the little bit extra has gone. Many of my kids' teachers have been brilliant in the classroom and I really do appreciate that - mind you though thats what I would have expected of them, same as I expect my surgeon or painter or mechanic or whatever to do a brilliant job they are paid to do (I do have high standards). I have very very rarely commented negatively about any teacher or the way they teach in the classroom. I do value and appreciate them for their classroom work.

That is true to a certain extent but there are a number of reasons for it. It could be said of the parents too. When our school has stuff on that needs parental input, fundraising, supervision etc, you do find it's the same parents that help out each time, just like what you were saying with the teachers.

Other factors that can have an effect I think are the working environment in the school and the change in students over the years. If the school is not a nice place to work - poor staff/management relations, the last place a teacher will want to spend their evening is in the school.

I can remember one particular incident where I was asked to put together a program for a school concert/musical 3 or 4 days before the musical. Putting it together is not a problem but racing around getting cast list, and taking photos of all the cast is. That particular day I was teaching all day, went straight from my last class to supervised evening study for another 2 hours. Came back in an hour later and spent the next four hours taking photos and getting all the details for the program. The principal was in to lock up the building at 11 that night when I was finishing up and he said 'So you'll have that program for me in the morning'... the point at which I flipped. It wasn't enough to be in from 9am - 11pm, but I did wonder was I expected to stay up all night to do the program? As you can imagine my response was not positive.

Right that's an extreme case but it's that kind of behaviour that just makes some teachers go 'Fcuk it, I need some time to myself' Sometimes the more you give, the more you're expected to give.

The other thing is that students' attitudes have changed. Again not to generalise, it's not all students, plenty are appreciative of what is done for them, but many expect stuff to happen as their entitlement. It can be very much an 'Entertain me' attitude which is not the most pleasant to work with. And I guess finally some parents treat extra curricular activites as a babysitting service which can be frustrating.

I'm involved with the school musical/school tours most of the time in my school etc, but it can be frustrating at times.

bdoo

Hey,

Glad to see that i'm not alone, I'm very involved in school and at one stage I was back every evening for one thing or another and in fairness you can get great satisfaction from doing other things and seeing a side of pupils that you generally don't in a classroom.

The thing with me now, apart from the pay cuts etc., is that I have a family now and I need to spend time with them and I'm so pissed off that the principal looks at me like I'm mentally ill when I announced to her that I wouldn't be in on tuesday night from 7 til ten for a Christmas concert.

Even with football - which is my main thing - I find I have to go cap in hand looking to organise a match and have am expected to leave work for my classes which they never get.

Being a very talented and successful coach , naturally success comes my way occasionally and they're all over it (Management) . Our school is so great we love sport blah blah blah - but they wouldn't be able to tell you who was on the team or what colour shirts they wear. It's so infuriating.

Of course the real killer is when they suggest that you'll be 'making the kids suffer' if you decide to take a break from it for a year or so. Why should my family suffer either though? It's like another poster said - the more you give the more they want.

I'm ranting now i'll go - Just needed to vent

TheDriver

I remember years ago when the whole rate my teacher lark went on and I noted that those of us who got involved in extra curricular things were put down in comments and those comments generally were from students who had axes to grind for not being picked for teams, favousitism etc whereas teachers who taught and went home on the bell got better reviews because it was based on their teaching alone.
same goes for now, there is less thank you now than before.

oh well

ah but that "rate my teacher" lark was a whole joke. Its almost human nature to only complain about someone/something so that website gave students a carte blanche (sp). People are so much slower to compliement good service. Also, I'll bet it was never parents who were rating teachers on the site so wouldn't really recommend worrying too much about teenagers teacher bashing. It's terrible to read negatives about yourself when you know you are putting your heart and sole into something but its almost like a right of passage for teenagers to put down their teachers. Its only years later they realise that Mr/Mrs So So was quite a good teacher.

I certainly wouldn't expect any person (well except maybe a surgeon who can't leave in middle of operation !!!) to put in extra hours as such short notice - its just not on whether you have a small family or not. Everyone is entitled to a life outside of work.

Badboy1977

The ASTI will be issuing directives soon about Work to Rule. The ASTI is a fully democratic body. There was a ballot which was passed overwhelmingly. You are either in the Union or not in it-its a personal choice. In my view teachers should follow the directives. If you disagree with directives go to branch meeting and make your views known to the standing committee rep.Its the standing committee that have real power. Not your school steward. The standing committee make up directives-in partnership with other unions. Personally for me democracy rules in union terms. Whether there is any point to ongoing action as economy goes into nose dive is debatable. I swing back and forth all the time.

If teachers want to give out about direction of union-ask yourself-when was last time I attended a branch meeting of any teaching union?
I put this out for general info purposes more than anything else.

Iused2likebusts

If we are to decide to withdraw our sevices from sport within the school, I believe we should wait till the start of the next school year to do so it wouldn't be right to do it halfway through the year.

Badboy1977

Iused2likebusts wrote: »

If we are to decide to withdraw our sevices from sport within the school, I believe we should wait till the start of the next school year to do so it wouldn't be right to do it halfway through the year.

While I sympathise with the predicament of School sports-8 months is a long time in Industrial relations. Any action must take place soon if at all.

rainbowtrout

Iused2likebusts wrote: »

If we are to decide to withdraw our sevices from sport within the school, I believe we should wait till the start of the next school year to do so it wouldn't be right to do it halfway through the year.

but isn't the point of industrial action to cause disruption and highlight what happens when all those extra duties are not carried out? It would be a bit pointless saying 'well, we'll work to rule, but not in this school year as that would cause a disruption?'

Badboy1977

Would tend to agree with you rainbowtrout. Though I have very mixed emotions about the whole thing. National finances are screwed and would still be withoout bank bail outs. The main reason Im for action is if we don't they might roll over us and over do it. We have given 13%-enough is enough.'

killbillvol2

The ASTI or any other union can't issue a directive in relation to time given voluntarily.

rainbowtrout

Badboy1977 wrote: »

Would tend to agree with you rainbowtrout. Though I have very mixed emotions about the whole thing. National finances are screwed and would still be withoout bank bail outs. The main reason Im for action is if we don't they might roll over us and over do it. We have given 13%-enough is enough.'

ya i'd agree with you there. I really can't afford another pay cut at this stage.

rainbowtrout

killbillvol2 wrote: »

The ASTI or any other union can't issue a directive in relation to time given voluntarily.

Well, no they can't but they can issue Work to Rule directives which could impact on many activities within a school. if teachers were instructed to only teach their classes during school hours and not bring classes to matches etc, then the issue of training after school becomes irrelevant. No point training if there's no matches.

bdoo

The unions won't try to ban voluntary activities that will serve nobody. What they should do is enforce directives and every member should abide by them.

The cutbacks have had no effect on services due to the goodwill of teachers. All this goodwill does is makes us cannon fodder for the media who see millions of savings from the moratorium and pay cuts etc.

What the public see are schools coping with less than what they had - logical conclusion --> cutbacks were warranted, money was being wasted.

The reality is that schools are under pressure to keep going and people are doing work they shouldn't be doing in the interests of the school and students. The problem is that the pressure is on ordinary teachers and not on management, BOM's, VEC's or the DES.

Unless some serious action is taken teachers who will continue to be vilified by the media anyway are the only ones who will suffer.

Badboy1977

Teachers need to realise the following otherwise we are doomed.

1. The Media turns on all authority groups and society as a whole hates all professions. I cant think of one profession that is still valued. Its the nature of 21rst century life-we know too much bad stuff about each other.
2. Directives can limit voluntary activities as far as I know. Otherwise ASTI would not be discussing it. No sports if that happens.You will be directed to just teach your classes .This is still being debated. Members can't cheery pick directives,
3. Industrial disputes are about maximum annoyance not about pussyfooting around parents,students the media. Unless those three groups are annoyed you wont achieve anything. An Industrial dispute is won by pissing people off and not won by kneeling before a right wing media. Ruari Quinn said last time (2001) teachers have no balls.We want to be liked-that will get you nowhere.
4. We voted last year for this.It was a legitimate vote. It will prob be reviewed in a few months but you either accept the will of the union electorate or you leave. Its democracy.:)

Remember the reform agenda is still out there-including substitution for free. You have been warned!

killbillvol2

Badboy1977 wrote: »

Teachers need to realise the following otherwise we are doomed.

1. The Media turns on all authority groups and society as a whole hates all professions. I cant think of one profession that is still valued. Its the nature of 21rst century life-we know too much bad stuff about each other.
2. Directives can limit voluntary activities as far as I know. Otherwise ASTI would not be discussing it. No sports if that happens.You will be directed to just teach your classes .This is still being debated. Members can't cheery pick directives,
3. Industrial disputes are about maximum annoyance not about pussyfooting around parents,students the media. Unless those three groups are annoyed you wont achieve anything. An Industrial dispute is won by pissing people off and not won by kneeling before a right wing media. Ruari Quinn said last time (2001) teachers have no balls.We want to be liked-that will get you nowhere.
4. We voted last year for this.It was a legitimate vote. It will prob be reviewed in a few months but you either accept the will of the union electorate or you leave. Its democracy.:)

Remember the reform agenda is still out there-including substitution for free. You have been warned!

No union can direct its members as to how to spend their own free time. You cannot tell a member that he/she may not take the choir/train a football team/insert your own activity.
As rainbowtrout has said, however, certain directives could make it difficult for certain activities to continue depending on how they're worded.
The INTO has issued some waffling rubbish requesting members engaged in voluntary activities to do so within school time where possible

bdoo

Badboy1977 wrote: »

Remember the reform agenda is still out there-including substitution for free. You have been warned!

Maybe the cheque at the end of this month will wake people up a bit, I can't believe the attitude in my staffroom - people seem to be happy enough to be rode day in day out for less money and more work.

The transformation agenda isn't going away as badboy says - they want to scrap S&S and do away with middle management posts. And god knows what else.

Pull the plug on everything - That's my motto; when students suffer parents get upset etc.

Killbill - I agree that unions can't direct teachers to stop voluntary activities but I do think that we should not continue doing these activities in the current climate. As Badboy says people need to get upset. I'm pissed off suffering and still offering everything I have to students whose parent's treat us like dirt and demand so much and are so critical. (Not all of them of course). Our job is getting worse by the day and soon it will be in the toilet.

I worked in the UK for a year and all I saw were burnt out teachers who were mostly divorced or seperated because their work demanded so much and they spent every waking moment jumping through hoops - that or teachers who didn't give a ****. That's where we're headed.

I think i'm a good teacher, I enjoy my job - teaching. But the rest, and what's coming down the line will only draw my attention away from the most important part of our job and this will be to my detriment and that of my students.

Sorry for ranting.

ytareh

Well said bdoo!The "Teaching is a Vocation" crowd rarely serve half a career before going on to 'pastures greener'...career breaks,secondment etc ...the job is being hamstrung by bureaucracy and the 'management' culture .Went on a day's inservice recently and had to submit 5 documents ,Request for Cover ,Work for Classes, Evaluation , Travel Allowance and Certificate of Attendance .I think in our place there are 15 to 20 forms to be filled in to take the kids away on a daytrip.All the sacrifices being made by teachers to keep the ship afloat ARE as was feared being seen as justification that we were 'underperforming' all along ...Pay cuts are getting very painful at this stage ...the idea that Middle Management posts and S&S would be scrapped and we take up the slack as part of our 'vocation' .Dear God!

Badboy1977

Was at a CEC meeting yesterday (ASTI). What came out of the meeting is as follows

1. Batt wont be invited to conference
2. Principals will be given a directive that they can't move posts around as people retire. They were allowed by previous directives to prioratise certain pastoral duties etc but no longer
3. A review is to be held on voluntary activities.It was felt that in certain areas (such as sport) members might ignore directives.However it must be noted directive if issued would prob focus on class master ships which in many cases are done for free. I have been emphasising for years that, this was a scandal.

Iused2likebusts

rainbowtrout wrote: »

but isn't the point of industrial action to cause disruption and highlight what happens when all those extra duties are not carried out? It would be a bit pointless saying 'well, we'll work to rule, but not in this school year as that would cause a disruption?'

I do agree in a way with you but I feel if it was done at the start of the year 1 more teachers would implement it . 2 the union could take the moral high ground "we finished out competitions for the students" 3 we could plan a big media campaign for the start of the next school year .If it was done now it wouldnt affect all schools as a lot of schools would be out of GAA and Soccer by now. I think it would hit home more with the general public at the start of next school year.

Badboy1977

The pace of action is glacial. Im annoyed that CEC (ASTI) just didnt put it to a vote.Ban voluntary activities -yes or no. I do understand that working with other unions takes time but we are 10 months on since Pension Levy.

Bonzo1970

The Latest I heard from someone on the standing Committee ASTI (thats the ultimate power committee ASTI) is that while the Three teacher unions are meeting weekly-there is some sort of news black out. The leadership is not telling the proles what's going on at these talks.