To get a teaching job- you must believe in god!

rccaulfield

This became very clear on Pat Kennys frontline on Monday night when Kenny interviewed the Principal of a cbs college. The man ( in reply to the question "Do teachers have to believe in God to get a job in your school?")admitted that in the interview process, teachers must follow the ethos of the school and that was a requirement for the job. He also claimed that parents had a choice of schools and didn't have to send their child there if they didn't want to.
Imo this is a disgrace- The percentage of religion based schools Vs non denominational is a joke. Is it a waste of time to get onto our politicians/ Equality officials/teaching unions about this matter?

liamw

This is beyond ridiculous. Strangely, one could actually present an argument that not believing in God would indicate a potentially better candidate since it shows that they think critically, logically and rationally and do not blindly believe in something without evidence.

Not that I would condone this type of discrimination from either side, but you get my point

Saint Ruth

liamw wrote: »

This is beyond ridiculous. Strangely, one could actually present an argument that not believing in God would indicate a potentially better candidate since it shows that they think critically, logically and rationally and do not blindly believe in something without evidence.

You don't honestly believe that every single athiest thinks "critically, logically and rationally" about God??

And every single believer blindly believes without any thought whatsoever??

From speaking to athiests, there's as many blindly believing athiests as blindly believing Religious, though the blindly believing athiests tend to be a lot more vocal (and insulting)...

Many athiests do think "critically, logically and rationally" of course, just as many believers do...

robindch

Saint Ruth wrote: »

From speaking to athiests, there's as many blindly believing athiests as blindly believing Religious, though the blindly believing athiests tend to be a lot more vocal (and insulting)...

Saint, This is one of your friendly moderators dropping by for a moment -- a bit less bile towards your fellow forum-members would be appreciated.

liamw

Saint Ruth wrote: »

You don't honestly believe that every single athiest thinks "critically, logically and rationally" about God??

And every single believer blindly believes without any thought whatsoever??

From speaking to athiests, there's as many blindly believing athiests as blindly believing Religious, though the blindly believing athiests tend to be a lot more vocal (and insulting)...

Many athiests do think "critically, logically and rationally" of course, just as many believers do...

I obviously don't believe that EVERYONE thinks like that. I do believe that a person that has shifted from a theist background to atheism is more likely to have those traits.

Comer1

rccaulfield wrote: »

teachers must follow the ethos of the school and that was a requirement for the job.

I'm sure it's possible to "follow the ethos of the school" and also not believe in God. That's what I do in my school. Most teachers know I'm an atheist, but I still acompany students to school masses etc. I show respect for any religous activity that goes on in the school. It doesn't impact on my job, beliefs or ethos of the school.

pH

I wonder what the chances are of an atheist getting a primary school teaching job in Ireland, given that 95% of schools have religious instruction integrated throughout the curriculum, and teachers are required to lead prayers and teach children how to pray to and worship God.

Saint Ruth

robindch wrote: »

Saint, This is one of your friendly moderators dropping by for a moment -- a bit less bile towards your fellow forum-members would be appreciated.

Sorry...

I just meant that if A is a Subset of B, then that does not mean every member of B is a member of A.
(thinking athiests = A, athiests = .

In this, I think schools should be like the US military. Don't ask, don't tell.

liah

I don't see the outrage.

Since the majority of Irish schools are based around religion, it should only be expected that the teachers know their subjects and believe in the religion taught in order to teach it with some degree of confidence. It would be hypocritical to have an atheist teacher in a religious school simply because the religious school is trying to create/keep the idea of god in the children who are under their instruction.

I don't like it, obviously. But it only makes sense. I do wish there were more non-denominational schools in this country to provide opportunities for all children to learn in the way that suits them best; to be honest I don't think religion (whatever brand name you choose) has any place in the classroom (outside of Mythology and History), it needs to be taken out as an ethos simply to provide a proper, unbiased, well-rounded view. It is not up to teachers to teach children what way to live their lives or what beliefs to hold, it is up to them to educate them on the matters of the world and let them decide for themselves upon being provided with accurate information regarding all avenues.

robindch

Comer1 wrote: »

I'm sure it's possible to "follow the ethos of the school" and also not believe in God. That's what I do in my school.

Could you characterize what the word "ethos" means in practice?

As far as I've seen, it appears to mean the prevailing religious/political ideology as defined by the school patron, that's not open to debate, and is to be respected by kids and teachers.

Sam Vimes

robindch wrote: »

Could you characterize what the word "ethos" means in practice?

As far as I've seen, it appears to mean the prevailing religious/political ideology as defined by the school patron, that's not open to debate, and is to be respected by kids and teachers.

I think what it means is you're allowed be an atheist as long as you don't tell anyone and teach them that the bible is true.

Dades

Saint Ruth wrote: »

there's as many blindly believing athiests as blindly believing Religious

How exactly does one blindly not believe something? *

* Apart from creationists!

Turtwig

pH wrote:

I wonder what the chances are of an atheist getting a primary school teaching job in Ireland, given that 95% of schools have religious instruction integrated throughout the curriculum, and teachers are required to lead prayers and teach children how to pray to and worship God.

I know personal experience never gives the full picture but I know at least 3 atheists that teach in primary schools.

ChocolateSauce

rccaulfield wrote: »

The percentage of religion based schools Vs non denominational is a joke.

You mean 100%: 0%?

I agree.

Saint Ruth wrote: »

You don't honestly believe that every single athiest thinks "critically, logically and rationally" about God??

Not every atheist does; I've met one or two who were just emotionally disaffected by religion, but I'd say there is an order of magnitude of difference, yes.

Many athiests do think "critically, logically and rationally" of course, just as many believers do...

....in all aspects of their life, except their belief, to which they do not apply the same standards. They can easily pick through other religions and say "but the mere idea of Vishnu is silly and obviously made up", but as soon as a person points out that their god is no different, they freak out and shriek hysterically that atheists are arrogant know it alls.



On the matter of being refused a teaching position because the foreign despot-decided ethos excludes you, I think that this could be taken to the European court of human rights. If they have the power to rule on Italian crucifixes then they have the power to rule on blatant religious discrimination.

Tim Robbins

Saint Ruth wrote: »

Sorry...

I just meant that if A is a Subset of B, then that does not mean every member of B is a member of A.
(thinking athiests = A, athiests = .

In this, I think schools should be like the US military. Don't ask, don't tell.

You're an atheist about every single God (Vishnu, Thor, Midras etc.) except your own. What subset are you in?

Have you thought critically about every single God (Vishnu, Thor, Midras) except your own?

tigerlilyblue

There are loads of Educate Together primary schools now, and I hear of more opening every year. In these schools children learn to respect the major belief systems, and gain knowledge about these systems but one is not endorsed. Teachers can choose to work in one of these schools if they don't feel comfortable working under a Catholic/ Church of Ireland ethos.

Most schools that I know ask the question in interview: 'Would you be happy to teach the Follow Me program?' which is the Catholic and C of I curriculum (slightly different to each other). They do not ask you anything else about your religious beliefs. Of course if you are an atheist you probably would feel uncomfortable teaching this program and instead might prefer to teach in an educate together school.

tigerlilyblue

Also the no. of educate together primary schools is probably the same as or more than the Church of Ireland/Protestant schools there are at the moment. There would still be more Catholic schools though.

Ickle Magoo

tigerlilyblue wrote: »

There are loads of Educate Together primary schools now....

Eh, 56 to service the entire country is hardly loads...

Zillah

Saint Ruth wrote: »

Many athiests do think "critically, logically and rationally" of course, just as many believers do...

Just as many believers do? Ahahaha.
No. They do not.

A person who commits to believing in an entire supernatural belief system based on the dubious testimony of long dead strangers cannot be said to be thinking critically, logically or rationally.

tigerlilyblue

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Eh, 56 to service the entire country is hardly loads...

Well the entire country does not want to send their children to educate together schools. They are great schools as are those under religious patronage but most parents still want their children in schools with a religious ethos.

In the Dublin area there are at least 23 or more schools that I know of that are educate together so it is pretty well serviced and all new primary schools they are being built in the greater Dublin area are ed together. As for secondary I know they want to set those up.

Sam Vimes

tigerlilyblue wrote: »

Well the entire country does not want to send their children to educate together schools. They are great schools as are those under religious patronage but most parents still want their children in schools with a religious ethos.

In the Dublin area there are at least 23 or more schools that I know of that are educate together so it is pretty well serviced and all new primary schools they are being built in the greater Dublin area are ed together. As for secondary I know they want to set those up.

92% of Irish primary schools are catholic schools:
http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/1002/education.html

Although I think that dropped slightly when they handed over some schools a few months ago to pay for raping generations of children

pH

tigerlilyblue wrote: »

Most schools that I know ask the question in interview: 'Would you be happy to teach the Follow Me program?' which is the Catholic and C of I curriculum (slightly different to each other). They do not ask you anything else about your religious beliefs. Of course if you are an atheist you probably would feel uncomfortable teaching this program and instead might prefer to teach in an educate together school.

Just a couple of minor points

- The number of educate together schools is tiny compared to the 3,300 national schools in the state.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_school_%28Ireland%29

- I'm pretty sure "Follow me" is CoI only - the catholic curriculum is called "Alive-O"

Anyway the point is that education is paid for by all of us in taxes and provided by the state, and if an atheist wants to teach primary children they have to restrict themselves to a approx 1.5% of all schools, or instruct and lead children in direct religious indoctrination.

rccaulfield

I suppose the main point i'm trying to make is that this policy is discriminitive towards teachers. If a teacher is not superstitious then they are automatically much less likely(if they're honest in their interview) to get a job in a religious ethosed school.
The debate of parents rights to send their children to catholic schools is fine. No problem.
However these people have the right not to be quizzed on their beliefs on creation etc during an interview for a job!

tigerlilyblue

Sam Vimes wrote: »

92% of Irish primary schools are catholic schools:
http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/1002/education.html

I realize that! The rest are made up of Muslim, Jesuit, Church of Ireland, Presbyterian, Educate together schools etc. I teach in one of these schools, not a Catholic school and have also taught in an Ed together school.

pH wrote: »

- I'm pretty sure "Follow me" is CoI only - the catholic curriculum is called "Alive-O"

Anyway the point is that education is paid for by all of us in taxes and provided by the state, and if an atheist wants to teach primary children they have to restrict themselves to a approx 1.5% of all schools, or instruct and lead children in direct religious indoctrination.

Yes it is. The names are different but they are very similar. The CoI asked for permission to use Alive-O and modify it for use in their schools so it is pretty much the same, same pics and everything except without the focus on Communion etc

You could say the same thing about teachers who work in Presbyterian schools they are restricted too in the school they can work in. All the new schools being built are Educate Together schools or non-denominational schools so it's moving in the right direction at the moment. There are some schools under religious patronage that are literally falling apart which I think is sad. I don't think people should complain about the lack of Educate together schools cause they are really growing and I'm sure they will continue to do so.

tigerlilyblue

rccaulfield wrote: »

However these people have the right not to be quizzed on their beliefs on creation etc during an interview for a job!

Has this happened in an interview? When I went to college I was quizzed on my religious beliefs which I think was a bit over the top but it was just the lecturer I happened to be interviewed by.. I think the other lecturer was a bit embarrassed by the stupid questions that were being asked. It was because I didn't go to a church they were familiar with. I don't know if that would have hindered my chances of getting in although I didn't think it was right.

Any interview I've done in a religious school I haven't been quizzed. As I said before they just asked me would I be happy to teach the re curriculum and you say yes/no. In the educate together interview I was grilled on religious beliefs though more so than in an interview for a religious school.

pH

http://www.educatetogether.ie/reference_articles/Ref_Art_003.html
"Atheistic interest in the Dalkey School Project [Later to become Educate Together] is clear. Ireland's system of education is denominational by Constitutional guarantee ... we submit that there is no need for such a school as this which can only be divisive. It can only be hostile to religion in an age when it was never more needed ... Dalkey could be a precedent for major trouble in other areas."
- Pamphlet distributed in Dalkey by "The Council for Social Concern"

Got to love Ireland in the late '70s don't you?

Ickle Magoo

tigerlilyblue wrote: »

I don't think people should complain about the lack of Educate together schools cause they are really growing and I'm sure they will continue to do so.

I'm sure they will too. The reason people complain and why I think they are perfectly entitled to do so is because despite having to contribute equally to the state coffers, their local school can & sometimes does legally refuse entry to their child. You may not think that is worthy of complaint because in 25 years there will probably be a secular school in it's place but for parents of children today, it's a very real issue.

ET schools take much money, planning and organisation, if a parent wants their child to attend one they need to find land, funding, support and all before the child starts school - parents have to start planning for schools before they have their children! All to avoid an exclusive, segregating education system that should have been abolished in line with the rest of the modern world decades ago but yeah why the complaining? :rolleyes:

liamw

Zillah wrote: »

A person wo commits to believing in an entire supernatural belief system based on the dubious testimony of long dead strangers cannot be said to be thinking critically, logically or rationally.

Yes, but I think religious believers tend to compartmentalize and may very well apply those traits to other parts of their life. Obviously, they don't apply them when it comes to religion.

Flamed Diving

Damn religies!

*shakes fist*

MagicMarker

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Damn religies!

*shakes fist*

Shake harder boy!!!

Sam Vimes

liamw wrote: »

Yes, but I think religious believers tend to compartmentalize and may very well apply those traits to other parts of their life. Obviously, they don't apply them when it comes to religion.

I agree. The way I see it (and this is kind of confirmed by a few believers), they drop their standard of evidence for religion because of the perceived benefits it brings to their life. To you and me, how beneficial something might appear to be is irrelevant and as GB Shaw said: "The fact that a believer is happier than a sceptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one" but they prefer to accept a comforting (possible) lie over a harsh truth

As atheists, we'd probably be better off convincing religious people that they can live full, happy, fulfilling and even better lives as atheists than talking about evidence and probability. You can see easily see this with creationists. No amount for evidence of will ever be enough for them because their rejection of it isn't based on evidence, it's based on the fact that they think we'll have to live in a Darwinian society if they accept it. That's an extreme example but it applies to all believers in such things, be it religion, homoeopathy, psychics etc

The Big Red Button

My cousin, who's a substitute teacher, gave me her CV to look at once. One thing she had one it was something to the effect of "As a practising Roman Catholic, I attend mass with my family every Sunday and am an active member of my local church."

I told her that she might want to think about leaving that out, as I had always been told that you should never make reference to your religious/political beliefs, nationality etc on a CV due to equality legislation. However, she said that every teacher she knows does mention their religion on the CV and it often comes up in interviews.

Does this mean that, if there were two teachers with identical qualifications etc, one Catholic and one non-Catholic, the Catholic would get the job? Or more relevantly, could a less qualified/less experienced teacher get the job because of their religion? Does this not conflict with the equality legislation? (Assuming that the non-Catholic teacher was willing to fully comply with the school's policies with regard to religion, and to teach the religious course as per the cirriculum, etc.)

Sam Vimes

chatterpillar wrote: »

My cousin, who's a substitute teacher, gave me her CV to look at once. One thing she had one it was something to the effect of "As a practising Roman Catholic, I attend mass with my family every Sunday and am an active member of my local church."

I told her that she might want to think about leaving that out, as I had always been told that you should never make reference to your religious/political beliefs, nationality etc on a CV due to equality legislation. However, she said that every teacher she knows does mention their religion on the CV and it often comes up in interviews.

Does this mean that, if there were two teachers with identical qualifications etc, one Catholic and one non-Catholic, the Catholic would get the job? Or more relevantly, could a less qualified/less experienced teacher get the job because of their religion? Does this not conflict with the equality legislation? (Assuming that the non-Catholic teacher was willing to fully comply with the school's policies with regard to religion, and to teach the religious course as per the cirriculum, etc.)

Schools use that magical word "ethos" and they have a specific exemption to equality legislation in this backwards sh!thole

Ickle Magoo

Since schools are sanctioned to discriminate against 4 & 5 year olds, I've no reason to believe they would let a little thing like equality legislation get in the way...

Comer1

robindch wrote: »

Could you characterize what the word "ethos" means in practice?

As far as I've seen, it appears to mean the prevailing religious/political ideology as defined by the school patron, that's not open to debate, and is to be respected by kids and teachers.

Yes

Mike 1972

Meanwhile the Education minister reckons that decisions regarding issues related to eduction are not within his remit :rolleyes:

EDUCATION: MINISTER FOR Education Batt O’Keeffe has said it was not within his remit to decide if religious organisations should be distanced from schools, following the revelations within the Murphy report.

Speaking in Limerick yesterday at Our Lady Queen of Peace School in Janesboro, Mr O’Keeffe said the prospect of removing all religious influences from schools is “not within my remit, nor indeed within my thought”.

“The Catholic Church and the Christian tradition has played an outstanding part in the education of all our children through the years. I think we should be maintaining that ethos and that tradition.

“It is not my intention to lose the outstanding nature of that tradition,” said the Minister to applause from pupils, parents teachers and members of the Presentation Order.

The Irish Primary Principals’ Network (IPPN) yesterday called for those named in the Murphy report be held accountable for their actions.

In a statement, the IPPN called for “personnel at any level, who have failed in any way in their child protection responsibilities, to immediately step aside to facilitate a full and thorough investigation”.

An IPPN survey found that over 80 per cent of principals indicated that bishops named in the Murphy report should not continue in their positions as school patrons.

The network said that despite the belated resignation of the Bishop of Limerick Donal Murray many primary school principals still have “deep rooted concerns” in relation to child protection in primary schools in Ireland.

The survey found that 2 per cent of schools did not have an up-to-date child protection policy and it said authorities need to redress this scenario “as a matter of urgency” and place current guidelines on a statutory footing.

In Limerick, Mr O’Keeffe visited Coláiste Chiaráin in Croom, the Our Lady Queen of Peace School in Janesboro, Ard Scoil Rís in the North Circular Road and St Nessan’s Community College in Moylish.

So in Ireland what exactly are the functions (if any) of a Minister for Education

Osgoodisgood

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Mr O’Keeffe said the prospect of removing all religious influences from schools is “not within my remit, nor indeed within my thought”.

Not within his remit? Then you have to wonder if it fits into anyone's remit.
You'd almost think he was keen to keep the RCC involved and is prepared to use the the apparent zero autonomy in his role as a lame excuse to keep the religious stranglehold on education in this country.

“The Catholic Church and the Christian tradition has played an outstanding part in the education of all our children through the years. I think we should be maintaining that ethos and that tradition.

“It is not my intention to lose the outstanding nature of that tradition,”

Aah. I see. Someone call Fred and Velma. I don't think we'll be needing them this time.

dvpower

Saint Ruth wrote: »

In this, I think schools should be like the US military. Don't ask, don't tell.

I'd prefer if our schools would follow a policy more like the new one that Obama is currently introducing to replace Don't ask, Don't tell.

Malty_T wrote: »

I know personal experience never gives the full picture but I know at least 3 atheists that teach in primary schools.

What do they do at prayer time? How do they handle religion class?

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Since schools are sanctioned to discriminate against 4 & 5 year olds, I've no reason to believe they would let a little thing like equality legislation get in the way...

As Sam said, they're specifically excluded.

Ickle Magoo

dvpower wrote: »

As Sam said, they're specifically excluded.

Exactly, sanctioned to discriminate against children and excluded from laws that were introduced in response to discrimination against adults. What a fabulous establishment, pride of the country, I'm sure.

WooPeeA

It's not only a teacher, there's lots more jobs that you're not allowed to do as an atheist, like the judge or guard and even a president (yep, president also has to swear to the God)!

Time to burn those medieval laws!!!

Antbert

I fail to see why the 'ethos' disclaimer even matters. That's the bit that should be done away with: The 'indoctrinating children ethos'. If that were gone we wouldn't have any of these other problems. It isn't a reason, it's a problem.

D4RK ONION

pH wrote: »

I wonder what the chances are of an atheist getting a primary school teaching job in Ireland, given that 95% of schools have religious instruction integrated throughout the curriculum, and teachers are required to lead prayers and teach children how to pray to and worship God.

Well, I'm hoping the chances are pretty good...

Yours sincerely
Atheist Teacher in training...

Red Sleeping Beauty

chatterpillar wrote: »

Does this mean that, if there were two teachers with identical qualifications etc, one Catholic and one non-Catholic, the Catholic would get the job? Or more relevantly, could a less qualified/less experienced teacher get the job because of their religion? Does this not conflict with the equality legislation? (Assuming that the non-Catholic teacher was willing to fully comply with the school's policies with regard to religion, and to teach the religious course as per the cirriculum, etc.)

I've a mate who's recently qualified as a primary school teacher and he's begun his first stint of teaching a class. We always talk about this - mainly because of me - but from what I can gather then yes, the Catholic will get the job. As far as I can tell it plays a pretty big part. Teachers lead prayers in the morning and afternoon at the end of school, there's the "ethos", there's the communions, confessions, confirmations, trips to mass, the regular masses around certain times of the year (like now) and I'd assume that an atheist wouldn't be too overjoyed with taking part in all of this.

Though, maybe you'd just accept it as part of the job and not declare that you're not Catholic. Problem is though as has been said, these are "Catholic schools" and there's (Christian) religion present outside of the religion class or segment of the day where "R.E." is taught.


Though having said all off that I know at least one primary school teacher who isn't a Christian/Catholic. At least I don't think he is/was