Cuts in Grants in tomorrows budget??

DeadMoney · 08-12-2009 3:29pm #1

Hey, does anybody know anything about whether it is likely that the grant will be cut down after tomorrow's budget? I rang my local Westmeath county council today to enquire about when the next instalment was due in January as I need to see if I should take out an overdraft over xmas. Anyway she said firstly that it will be delayed in the new year and secondly that it may very well be less than the amount it usually is. Double bad news for students relying on the grant really!

DeadMoney · 08-12-2009 4:20pm

betafrog wrote: »

No offence to yourself OP but to be honest the grant needs to go, it is a poorly administered and badly thought through way of funding students.

Something akin to the Student Loan Company in the UK needs to be brought in instead, and yes I wouldn't be surprised or particularly cut up if the grant was cut in the budget.

Thats good for you mate. I am assuming like most Dublin students you decided to attend college in Dublin and stay living at home? If not I apologize but I cant really take your opinion seriously if you are in fact living at home through out college. There for you have no rent, bills, food etc and only have to worry about money for booze and the odd canteen diner. Again my apologies if this doesn't fit your case but try having to pay €100 per week on rent, pay for all your food, bills etc, and work part time late nights in a bar on top of trying to do well in exams. I am 23 so I do not get a penny from my parents and to be honest they hardly have enough for them selves. Ok I agree some students get approved on the grant and they do not really 'deserve' it as they are being funded by well off parents but most grant students need it and rely on it. Its all good and well for you saying 'they need to do away with the grant' but if you were in my situation you would never say this so you must not be full stop and count yourself fortunate for that.

mdbatches · 08-12-2009 4:33pm

I agree with betafrog, the wrong people are recieving the grants and spending them incorrectly... my friend for example is using hers to pay for her christmas presents.. sickening for the likes of me who works 12 hours every weekend in order to fund my education somewhat. Its nothing personal against you deadmoney, its just that the entire system is unfair.

Xhristy · 08-12-2009 4:39pm

This post has been deleted.

DeadMoney · 08-12-2009 4:44pm

betafrog wrote: »

I'm 21, my parents earn 6 figures and so I don't get the grant, but my parents feel I'm an adult and should be treated as such and therefore I receive absolutely no financial aid from them at all. I moved out of home (which is in Meath) when I was 17 to live in Dublin, and have paid my rent, bills, food etc all out of a part time job ever since.

The grant system doesn't work, pure and simple. A student loan system would be considerably fairer and a lot easier to administer.

Why should my parents taxes go to pay for someone else to attend college just because their parents don't earn as much.

Fair play and I completely respect your independence but may I ask how did you manage to pay pay Rent, Bills, and living expenses with just a part time job? Lol, I work 4 nights per week and I can hardly keep my head above water. And its not like I even go out much. I never go out on college nites as all my friends are finished college and I work pretty much every weekend so I can't get out with mates on those nites either. The grant has always just covered rent for the year for me which is a HUGE help at that. However with regards to why should people have to pay taxes for funding grants, well I'm not near versed enough on the subject to go near that one. Although the same argument can be made for lots of other state provided funding such a welfare, free healthcare, etc. Again though not near qualified enough to comment on these issues. Perhaps you are right about the grant scheme not working in Ireland, I have really never looked in to it enough to know that much about it. I'm not going to argue with you there as you very well may be correct but its just a bit of a pain to learn half way through the academic year that your grant is going to be reduced when you have already signed rent leases and stuff. Anyway I guess we won't have to wait long to see what happens.

DeadMoney · 08-12-2009 4:50pm

Xhristy wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Very true, I remember a guy I went to school with who's father owned some big transport company getting the full grant for 4 years in UCD. The guys parents were multi millionaires and he never had to work in any part time jobs ever through college. He was allowed pocket the whole grant for himself. Thats like over 3k pocket money for him each year! :eek:

I lived with a guy last year though who had a single parent and really deserved the grant but didn't get it so yes the system definitely is not perfect by any means. I think this is largely down to how they means test it though and it is mostly based on taxes paid throughout the year.

mdbatches · 08-12-2009 4:59pm

DeadMoney wrote: »

I think this is largely down to how they means test it though and it is mostly based on taxes paid throughout the year.

youre dead right, college is a huge expense between rent/bills/living expenses/tuition fees, a lot of people deserve the financial aid but handing an 18 year old 3k for the year is irresponsible. The councils and VEC's need to keep an eye on the way the grants are spent by demanding receipts for rent etc. It makes me so angry that that money is spent on sun holidays/cars/christmas presents etc. **** that.

errlloyd · 08-12-2009 5:00pm

Deadmoney I don't think any of us wanna see you without cash. However I think most of us feel that a loan system wouldn't be abused as much. There are two main reasons for that.

People who currently get the grant, but don't need it wouldn't take the loan because they'd know they have to pay it back.

People who currently don't get the grant, but would need it, would take the loan.

Mr.Nice Guy · 08-12-2009 5:01pm

betafrog wrote: »

I'm 21, my parents earn 6 figures and so I don't get the grant, but my parents feel I'm an adult and should be treated as such and therefore I receive absolutely no financial aid from them at all. I moved out of home (which is in Meath) when I was 17 to live in Dublin, and have paid my rent, bills, food etc all out of a part time job ever since.

The grant system doesn't work, pure and simple. A student loan system would be considerably fairer and a lot easier to administer.

Why should my parents taxes go to pay for someone else to attend college just because their parents don't earn as much.

Wow what a load of Darwinian, upper class drivel.

My parents don't happen to earn 6 figure sums. Without the aid of grants I would not have been able to finance getting the B.A. I now have and the M.A. programme I am now on. The grant system does work. It has been able to educate those who are without the advantages of birth privy to some in the country.

Why should people in a position like I was in be deprived of educational opportunities on account of their mammy and daddy not earning as much as others do?

In a republic, where all citizens are supposed to be equal, shouldn't every effort be made to give people an equal shot? Shouldn't talent be rewarded and not salaries? Why should wealth and education go hand in hand when it benefits the country as a whole.

Your style of thinking effectively puts a glass ceiling on people with the brains to do well who, by no fault of their own, happen to come from backgrounds not as well off as others.

TirNaNog. · 08-12-2009 5:04pm

I agree with betafrog!!
you should starve to death and live out on the streets!!!!
All because you have no silverspoon to pawn!

Johnz13 · 08-12-2009 5:08pm

betafrog wrote: »

I moved out of home (which is in Meath) when I was 17 to live in Dublin, and have paid my rent, bills, food etc all out of a part time job ever since.
I take it your part time job was drug dealing or some form of money growing?
A. no one can live on part time income how many hours can you work like 15?
that cant cover everything you stated. B. you live in dublin meaning your bills are about twice as much as most . You have to be joking me.

errlloyd · 08-12-2009 5:18pm

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

In a republic, where all citizens are supposed to be equal, shouldn't every effort be made to give people an equal shot? Shouldn't talent be rewarded and not salaries? Why should wealth and education go hand in hand when it benefits the country as a whole.
.

If we are going to do that, than grants should be open to everyone, and they should be awarded relative to people's talents. IE the amount of CAO points they get or the course they are doing, or the length of their penis.

Btw its my opinion that the length of your penis is probably a better indicator of intelligence than CAO points.

DeadMoney · 08-12-2009 5:22pm

Johnz13 wrote: »

betafrog wrote: »

I moved out of home (which is in Meath) when I was 17 to live in Dublin, and have paid my rent, bills, food etc all out of a part time job ever since.
I take it your part time job was drug dealing or some form of money growing?
A. no one can live on part time income how many hours can you work like 15?
that cant cover everything you stated. B. you live in dublin meaning your bills are about twice as much as most . You have to be joking me.

Gotta agree with this, part time jobs are
A: Very tough to even get these days for students and
B: Usually don't pay much over €9- €10 per hour.

Betafrog, If you went to college a few years ago however I could imagine this perhaps as things were a bit cheaper but now there is no way you could swing this in Dublin. Jesus you cant leave the house in Dublin without spending a tenner here or there. There is always expenses.

mdbatches · 08-12-2009 5:26pm

ATTACK THE POST, NOT THE POSTER

Don't make me come down there.

-Raphael

Mr.Nice Guy · 08-12-2009 5:37pm

errlloyd wrote: »

If we are going to do that, than grants should be open to everyone, and they should be awarded relative to people's talents. IE the amount of CAO points they get or the course they are doing, or the length of their penis.

Btw its my opinion that the length of your penis is probably a better indicator of intelligence than CAO points.

I don't see anything wrong with the system as it is now.

betafrog wrote:

No it doesn't. In a student loan system you would still have gone to college. But once you finished college and started to earn you would begin paying back for it. Instead you are given free cash on behalf of the government purely because your parents don't earn as much as mine. Do you honestly think there would be as many people doing pointless degrees for the sake of three years partying if they knew they had to pay for it later on.

No you see in the real world what would happen is young people with the talent to go to college would choose against going on account of not wanting to bankrupt themselves or their parents.

There was no "free cash" given out. Everyone pays taxes and there is nothing wrong with the state offering aid to those who need it. Unless of course one subscribes to a ridiculous "Survival of the richest fittest" school of thought.

betafrog wrote:

If you want further education then you have to pay for it. In a loan system hether it is now or over the period of a few years is up to you, but you should. Instead in the current system, either you/your parents pay it now or the government and by relation the taxpayer does.

It is paid for now - just that the portion of it which is financially out of reach for some parents has been paid for by the government, which has up to now recognised it is better to have an edcuated citizenry in place rather than talented people working in menial jobs, or going abroad, because they cannot find satisfactory work at home on account of the glass ceiling put there by people with views like yourself.

TirNaNog. · 08-12-2009 5:40pm

The OP will pay for his education through tax when he gets his degree,all he wants is a chance,I'm sure if he came from a wealthy family he wouldnt be moaning,
He just doesnt need little over opinionated pansys like you talking s***e!

betafrog wrote: »

20 hours a week at e10 an hour is at least 200 per week, or 800 a month. With rent of 400 that leaves you with 400 to eat food and get around for the month. How is that difficult?

See the above.

Why to subjective there TirNaNog, I didn't say you should starve just because your mum is uneducated, I said that you and you alone should pay for your education, whether it is now or later it should be you and the taxpayer.

errlloyd · 08-12-2009 5:44pm

The op will pay for a percentage of his education through tax, yeah. People who don't take the grant will pay the rest...

schween · 08-12-2009 5:47pm

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Wow what a load of Darwinian, upper class drivel.

My parents don't happen to earn 6 figure sums. Without the aid of grants I would not have been able to finance getting the B.A. I now have and the M.A. programme I am now on. The grant system does work. It has been able to educate those who are without the advantages of birth privy to some in the country.

Why should people in a position like I was in be deprived of educational opportunities on account of their mammy and daddy not earning as much as others do?

In a republic, where all citizens are supposed to be equal, shouldn't every effort be made to give people an equal shot? Shouldn't talent be rewarded and not salaries? Why should wealth and education go hand in hand when it benefits the country as a whole.

Your style of thinking effectively puts a glass ceiling on people with the brains to do well who, by no fault of their own, happen to come from backgrounds not as well off as others.

What a load of drivel.

My parents earn just above the qualifying level, which is low. So I don't qualify for this great opportunity providing grant as you call it and my parents can no way afford to fund me a cent, so I work between 20 and 30 hours a week, like lots of people I know.

The grant system doesn't work. I know plenty of people who get their grant money and piss it away. Just because the grant system works for you doesn't mean it works overall. The system needs a major overhaul.

It p*sses me off when I look at my parents working hard and being told no for everything.
Meanwhile my cousins parents laze about for as long as I can remember, get a free house, free healthcare and the full grant of several thousand only for them to whine it's not enough. One of them has a car and drives to college (3 or 4km) and still complains he's just breaking even.
I know 2 other girls who couldn't decide whether to get their teeth whitened or go to a spa when they got their grant.

The system is broken.

Mr.Nice Guy · 08-12-2009 5:50pm

errlloyd wrote: »

The op will pay for a percentage of his education through tax, yeah. People who don't take the grant will pay the rest...

So shall we abolish the dole too then? After all one person takes it but the rest of us pay for it.

Let the peasants freeze on the streets. How dare parents with 6 figure sums have to put up with uneducated, out of work sorts taking a free hand. Think of how much taxes could be lowered without it.

schween wrote:

What a load of drivel.

My parents earn just above the qualifying level, which is low. So I don't qualify for this great opportunity providing grant as you call it and my parents can no way afford to fund me a cent, so I work between 20 and 30 hours a week, like lots of people I know.

The grant system doesn't work. I know plenty of people who get their grant money and piss it away. Just because the grant system works for you doesn't mean it works overall. The system needs a major overhaul.

It p*sses me off when I look at my parents working hard and being told no for everything.
Meanwhile my cousins parents laze about for as long as I can remember, get a free house, free healthcare and the full grant of several thousand only for them to whine it's not enough. One of them has a car and drives to college (3 or 4km) and still complains he's just breaking even.
I know 2 other girls who couldn't decide whether to get their teeth whitened or go to a spa when they got their grant.

The system is broken

I didn't mean to suggest the system was perfect. I was close to being denied a grant for similar reasons like yourself. All I'm saying is it can and does work. I know from experience. Could it be improved in my opinion? Most certainly. Would I be in favour of scrapping it altogether and bringing in a system of loans? Absolutely not.

dyl10 · 08-12-2009 6:27pm

I agree with a lot of your points, betafrog.
I know people who get the grant that shouldn't and I know people who should get the grant but don't.

However, from reading your posts, I'm curious as to whether you would consider yourself quite right wing in general, as opposed to just being anti-grant?

DeadMoney · 08-12-2009 6:35pm

Ok I had a feeling this thread might spark a debate over whether or not students should get the grant and there are some good points on both sides of the argument but with regards to my OP, I just think it is a bit unfair that these changes are being implemented half way through out the college year. I mean shouldn't there be a certain amount of money already put aside for the year? It just makes it tough because certain students that are in similar financial positions as myself will have to make some changes in the new year such as applying for over drafts, seeking cheaper accommodation, or looking for more hours in work.

phasers · 08-12-2009 6:49pm

I buy food and books and pay for bus passes with my grant. If I didn't get my grant I wouldn't be able to go to college, simple as. Get off yuor bloody pedestals and accept that some people need help.

Do any of you realise how hard a part time job is to come by nowadays if you have no prior experience? I have nobody to "put a good word in for me" anywhere.

A student loan system would just encourage students to emigrate. The last thing Ireland needs is a brain drain, but if students are going to pay for college they're going to go to somewhere like the UK where the cost of living is lower and education standards are overall higher.

El Siglo · 08-12-2009 7:04pm

This whole thread reads like something a taxi driver would say on the Adrian Kennedy phone show: "Ah Jaysus Adrian it's fookin' terrible these people takin' our money and fookin' off, gettin' every hand out, the robbin' scumbags..." and so forth.:rolleyes: Personally, I think the grant is great, without it I would never have gone to college, with it I managed to get a 1st in my degree and the highest result in my class (that's right folks I won a medal and a grand for that one!:D). It's a system that is in need for reform but I can guarantee you though for every idiot that pisses their cheque away on drink, there's a hundred that are using theirs to pay the rent and ESB. I can't get over how begrudging some people are of the grant, I mean there's worse fuckers out there that are absolutely robbing the state and students here are bitching against one another because some poor sod gets a hand out from the state.
So my advice is; stop reading the Irish Independent it's a fucking rag, Kevin Myers is a dick, Gerry Ryan is an idiot and stop listening to middle-aged people in general they're the biggest whingers imaginable!;)

El Siglo · 08-12-2009 7:16pm

betafrog wrote: »

How would it encourage students to emigrate? They would just end up in another country with likely higher fees and still end up on a student loan scheme. And the cost of living argument is moot, wages etc are always relative to the local cost of living..

Well actually there has been an increase in students going abroad of late and in comparison to Irish universities, there are far higher academic standards in UK universities (even though you're hit with massive costs, a degree from UCL, KCL, Cantab, Oxon etc... looks a lot better than an Irish degree). So in order to keep students in our decent universities (we might be good but were not Oxford etc...) it might be advantageous to keep costs low or in fact minimise costs all together, that way you might have a degree, masters etc... from UCD or whatever but it has costed you nothing (decent, low cost degree Vs. somewhat expensive, highly regarded degree). Think about it, if you had to pay for your degree here in UCD, would you not be as well going to the UK and getting into a really highly ranked university and paying more or less the same anyway? You see we can't compete with the UK on academic standards, we can however make it as cheap as possible to do the degree. To be honest, if I was to be given no financial support and effectively had to pay for my degree in Ireland, I'd go to the UK, might as well pay for a good degree over there than to put up with over crowded lectures and the high cost of living in Dublin.

Mr.Nice Guy · 08-12-2009 7:18pm

betafrog wrote: »

There is plenty wrong with it now. The people who need it are not always the one's that get it, and there are a large number of those that don't need it that do get it.

You don't want anyone to get it though. As I've said the system can be improved but that doesn't mean it should be discarded.

betafrog wrote:

No you see in the real world, ie everywhere outside of ireland, does it this way. It works for them, and it will work here. You get a fixed sum for each year of your degree, then once you have finished and are earning a certain amount (note the earning a certain amount part :cool:) you begin paying back in installments that are indexed against your salary. The more you earn the more you pay back. Then once you've finished paying the installments you've finished paying for your education and you don't have to worry about the fact that your paying for someone elses. It works.

Everywhere outside of Ireland does it this way do they? Are you sure about that?

The system you propose is hated in Britain where students leave college with huge debts. Many decide not to go to college as a result. It is a glass ceiling.

betafrog wrote:

Try reading all that again and tell me where this glass ceiling bull**** is coming from.

Your methods will put students off from going to college. It will make universities the playground of the rich, affluent members of Irish society. Like the old days.

It looks like our views won't be reconciled on this matter so all I'll say is this - I don't believe students should have their chances of going to university determined by the financial situation of their parents. I believe a student with the talent to go on and go to university should be afforded every possible chance by the state of doing so. If you implement a system of loans the practical result is that it will have a negative effect on those who want to go to university as many won't want to burden themselves or their families with the financial woe.

It's a glass ceiling because little Johnny from Foxrock will get to go to UCD as his parents can afford the high course costs whereas little Johnny from Ballymun will not want to go to his parents and convince them a massive loan, with all the stipulations it entails, is in his best interests. Johnny from Ballymun will likely have to cast aside his ambitions and will wind up working if he's lucky as something like a shoe salesman, fitting footwear years down the line for Johnny from Foxrock who is now in a great job, thanks to the education he has received - an education achieved due to his privileged situation.

Of course many in this country live in their own narrow, insular world not giving a toss about those in more difficult circumstances than them. It's a mindset I do not subscribe to.

errlloyd · 08-12-2009 7:50pm

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

I don't see anything wrong with the system as it is now.

And two posts later...

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

I didn't mean to suggest the system was perfect. I was close to being denied a grant for similar reasons like yourself. All I'm saying is it can and does work. I know from experience. Could it be improved in my opinion? Most certainly. Would I be in favour of scrapping it altogether and bringing in a system of loans? Absolutely not.

A Mr Guy, you're such a measure of consistency.

Chucky the tree · 08-12-2009 8:29pm

What this massive loan bull**** Mr. Nice guy? The grant should simply cover the registration fee of €1,700 and other minor costs. If travel is an issue they should be provided with monthly bus tickets. If they need accomadation then student accomdation should be provided and paid for directly by the state. A system of book stamps should also be used if need be, where if a student needs a book he can simply apply for a book stamp which can be used in a certain shops that have a deal in place with the goernment. As it is we have a huge majority of people getting money handed to them on grant money, they don't spend a penny of it on stuff that is actually need like college books etc but they drink it all or buy there christmas present. It's a shocking system and how anyone can claim otherwise is a beyond me. I'd happy for a bus tickets and book stamps to be govered by a grant. For resigration fee it should be done on a loan basis. Also like loan, students can pick how much of a loan they want after that. €100 a month for 9 months brings a total loan cost to €2,600. Not even close to a "massive" loan and one which can easily be paid pack over a 5 year period by anyone.

insert-gear · 08-12-2009 11:54pm

Grant system has been totally abused, I know a girl who's dad is absolutely minted, but because of some loophole due to him being self employed she's entitled to it, so yes the system does need to be changed.

On the other hand, this does not necessarily mean that grants should be done away with. Just because someone may have a financially secure family to fall back on, does not mean everyone else does. What if student loans had been brought in a couple of years ago, and everyone that got their degree and was in their second or third year of work suddenly lost their jobs. Would they be imprisoned like the people who currently can't pay their mortgages?

Regardless if your parents give you financial assistance or not, I very much doubt they would let you go to jail, or suffer any other serious consequences of not being able to repay a debt.

Also, 800 a month, 400 for rent, 100 for light and heat, at least 70-80 on travel. alone I would love to see how youre feeding and clothing yourself for just over 50 euro a week. How are you planning on buying Christmas presents, phone credit or have even a trip to the cinema a month. Story seems doubtful to me

edit: I also dont necessarily agree with cash in pocket, stamps could work, but what if you buy a second hand book etc. Cant see many fellow students accepting stamps

DeadMoney · 09-12-2009 12:18am

insert-gear wrote: »

Grant system has been totally abused, I know a girl who's dad is absolutely minted, but because of some loophole due to him being self employed she's entitled to it, so yes the system does need to be changed.

On the other hand, this does not necessarily mean that grants should be done away with. Just because someone may have a financially secure family to fall back on, does not mean everyone else does. What if student loans had been brought in a couple of years ago, and everyone that got their degree and was in their second or third year of work suddenly lost their jobs. Would they be imprisoned like the people who currently can't pay their mortgages?

Regardless if your parents give you financial assistance or not, I very much doubt they would let you go to jail, or suffer any other serious consequences of not being able to repay a debt.

Also, 800 a month, 400 for rent, 100 for light and heat, at least 70-80 on travel. alone I would love to see how youre feeding and clothing yourself for just over 50 euro a week. How are you planning on buying Christmas presents, phone credit or have even a trip to the cinema a month. Story seems doubtful to me

edit: I also dont necessarily agree with cash in pocket, stamps could work, but what if you buy a second hand book etc. Cant see many fellow students accepting stamps

Good post with some strong points. I think it is definitely a case of the system being abused but I don't blame the students who are getting the grant but don't really need it. You cant blame a bunch of 18-21yr olds who are being handed cheques and use them to go on the piss or buy clothes, what do we expect? They are hardly gonna hand it back! I like the idea of having more strict procedures in place where receipts have to be provided for expenditure but since the grant is issued to aid with the general 'cost of living' it would be very hard to stop people from spending this money on non college related expenses. Anyway how do I find out whether there is cuts in 2moro's budget? Will it be available on the gov website to look at 2moro evening?

El Siglo · 09-12-2009 12:55am

betafrog wrote: »

Right let's take 4 students A, B, C and D.

A's parents are unemployed and as such A get's a huge grant from the state paid for by B and C's parents taxes. A get's to go to college, doesn't need to pay for rent as it's covered by the grant and so doesn't need a job. So A sails through college and does great for himself.

B's parents do work, but they aren't particularly well off and so can't afford to pay for B's way through college, however because B's parents work he barely meets the grant requirements and so only gets a very small helping hand. So B need's to get a part-time job and so he has less time to study, his grades aren't as good as A's and so he doesn't quite as well for himself down the years.

C's parent work as well. But because they're self employed they can see they earn as much as they want. So despite being considerably well off, C get's the same grant as A, but because they grew up living in a house of dishonesty they pretty much piss away the grant. C spends there college years drinking and does pretty much feck all afterwards.

Then you have D, his parents are very well off, but they worked their way to their wealth so they feel D should do the same. They won't support him through college and so he get's a part-time job, and like B doesn't do quite as well as he could.

So the grant system only helps out students A and C.

If you were to have a student loan system A, B and D could avail of this. They would be able to concentrate on college work as they wouldn't need a part time job, and knowing that it is their own money funding them through college they will appreciate it considerably more and will likely do a lot better for it. On the other hand C realises now that rather then getting a free bender for the next few years, they will have to work for it so rather than wasting tax payers money and depriving someone of a college place they'll sod off some where else.

Do you honestly think the state, the civil service, department of education, the department of social and family affairs actually think about or look at the situation in those terms you've just outlined? They're retarded and slow and don't think like this, it literally is an objective analysis of how much your parents or in the case of over 23's, how much you earn, that's it. They don't care about your situation, they'll never look at how hard you're finding your financial situation, it's literally 'if you fall into this category, here's your grant'. If anything, they're going to make it harder to get the grant in the budget. However, you think that grant recipients are a waste of tax payers money? You're only looking at this in one perspective: "they get free money, I don't... boo hoo." I mean how many people do you think, on the grant actually go on the piss all the time? You do realise that you can't fail when you're on the grant or you **** up your payments and are left living on gulps of air and rice for five or six months. Really, if you had any proof, actual data on the negative benefits of the grant scheme, I'd love to see them I really would. However, from those whom I've encountered on the grant I can easily say that it is not a free ride or a piss up, it's hardship from the go. However, you're probably going to throw the "oh I know one chap who gets a ten grand and drinks it all and does no work and his parents are secret millionaires..."

Chucky the tree wrote:

What this massive loan bull**** Mr. Nice guy? The grant should simply cover the registration fee of €1,700 and other minor costs.

Yes, other minor costs like paying €100/week in rent, or €10-€15 in ESB, the same in gas etc... and we haven't even put food in our bellies, tea into our cups and rubbish into our bins. By any chance are you living on a different planet?

If travel is an issue they should be provided with monthly bus tickets.

Did you ever hear of integrated ticketing? It's where you can use one ticket for the bus/luas/metro etc... that's a simple system that most developed countries have, yet it's been on the books in this country for the last century. Do you honestly think something like that would work or could be implemented in any reasonable manner? Have you forgotten that the country is run by the most retarded people on the planet or has this slipped your mind? How much would it cost? What if you live in a poorly serviced area, which there are many in this God forsaken hell hole. What about private operators how would you encourage them? Are you not restricting peoples' mobility then? Is that constitutional?

If they need accomodation then student accomodation should be provided and paid for directly by the state.

The fact that you couldn't even spell accommodation just goes to show how ridiculous your statement was presented.

A system of book stamps should also be used if need be, where if a student needs a book he can simply apply for a book stamp which can be used in a certain shops that have a deal in place with the government.

You probably love this idea then. It wouldn't work, it would cost millions to implement and it's simply the most retarded idea I've ever heard of, because you will end up with this...

As it is we have a huge majority of people getting money handed to them on grant money, they don't spend a penny of it on stuff that is actually need like college books etc but they drink it all or buy there christmas present.

You do realise how retarded this statement is? I mean, at least when I listen to AK phone show, the people have the excuse of a lack of education and general ignorance for their attitudes but this is coming from a supposed third level student, it's ridiculous. Prove it, conduct a study and examine the consumer habits of higher education grant recipients, or are you still learning about the Nash-Corneau equilibrium in the intro to microeconomics with McDowell?

It's a shocking system and how anyone can claim otherwise is a beyond me.

Thank God you're not studying English or else Declan Kiberd would have a shit fit! However you think it's a shocking system, and do you not think spending €77 billion on loans worth €47 billion (or less) is not worse? Seriously, it's education no matter what way you look at it. Are you not entitled to be educated because your parents are too poor to pay? Really, is this the kind of country we're living in now, that we'll put up with some of the most corrupt politicians in Europe (next to Italy and most of Poland) and yet we're pissing about in an argument over grants for poor students. When times were good I never saw these threads, so when times are bad, bring out the social darwinism and take a sledge to the most vulnerable. It's disgusting.

I'd be happy for a bus tickets and book stamps to be covered by a grant.

Yes they have something like that in the US, and it works very well for them...

For registration fee it should be done on a loan basis. Also like loan, students can pick how much of a loan they want after that. €100 a month for 9 months brings a total loan cost to €2,600.

How do you propose they pay it back? Would this not be a waste of time and entail massive administrative costs??? Again, this smells of either a first year with their first taste of academia or a troll with nothing better to do.
Sure, while we're at it, let's get rid of the free breast examination clinics, the medical card, free secondary education? Sure lets go back to the good old days of the deValera's three 'Rs' because people were happier while dancing at the cross roads and shoveling shit on a farm, while the Doctor, the Priest and School Teacher took care of everyone in the village.

Not even close to a "massive" loan and one which can easily be paid pack over a 5 year period by anyone.

Again how can one pay it back with no job? What do you think after you earn your degree that employers are almost fapping to get you on a contract? The real world doesn't work like that. And the very idea of not only trying to 'cut costs' in this manner but the fact that one is stigmatised on the basis of income is grossly offensive (queuing for food at designated shops or handing over their special ticket to the surly bus driver). What your post has outlined with 'book stamps' etc... is without a doubt one of the most retarded ideas I've ever had the displeasure of reading. However it might have merit on the AK phone in show, so give Adrian a call or maybe even Gerry Ryan in the morning, he's gone extremely ultra right wing these days and would love to hear your ideas.
Now do you not have your exams this week? Is it not time to hit those books and don't forget to fill in your name and student number in full on the answer booklets.;)

El Siglo · 09-12-2009 1:02am

DeadMoney wrote: »

Good post with some strong points. I think it is definitely a case of the system being abused but I don't blame the students who are getting the grant but don't really need it. You cant blame a bunch of 18-21yr olds who are being handed cheques and use them to go on the piss or buy clothes, what do we expect? They are hardly gonna hand it back! I like the idea of having more strict procedures in place where receipts have to be provided for expenditure but since the grant is issued to aid with the general 'cost of living' it would be very hard to stop people from spending this money on non college related expenses.

So do you wear clothes? How would you define "non college related expenses"? You've just asserted that clothes are "non college related expenses", yet without clothes one would freeze, am I right? So your argument is flawed from the outset.

Anyway how do I find out whether there is cuts in 2moro's budget? Will it be available on the gov website to look at 2moro evening?

RTÉ News at six and the nine o'clock news, Vincent Browne etc...

therokerroar · 09-12-2009 1:28am

betafrog wrote: »

No offence to yourself OP but to be honest the grant needs to go, it is a poorly administered and badly thought through way of funding students.

Something akin to the Student Loan Company in the UK needs to be brought in instead, and yes I wouldn't be surprised or particularly cut up if the grant was cut in the budget.

And then you would have twice the amount of people on Social Welfare Benefit, what a cracking idea that would be :rolleyes:

Get off your high horse mate.

JBUCD · 09-12-2009 12:12pm

Grant is needed. I would be lost without it. Only thing that I would like to see changed is the time I recieve the grant. Would love to be able to get the grant money just before I start a semester or the first week of a semester so I have it for when I need supplies, like new books. No way I am getting envolved in this argument.

enda1 · 09-12-2009 12:24pm

JBUCD wrote: »

Grant is needed. I would be lost without it. Only thing that I would like to see changed is the time I recieve the grant. Would love to be able to get the grant money just before I start a semester or the first week of a semester so I have it for when I need supplies, like new books. No way I am getting envolved in this argument.

Why'd you post then?

The grant is not needed. This much is obvious.

It is clear that a student loan would provide the same financial stimulus for students while reducing the financial burden on the tax payer.
How is this hard to understand?

Chucky the tree · 09-12-2009 1:03pm

El Siglo wrote: »

Do you honestly think the state, the civil service, department of education, the department of social and family affairs actually think about or look at the situation in those terms you've just outlined? They're retarded and slow and don't think like this, it literally is an objective analysis of how much your parents or in the case of over 23's, how much you earn, that's it. They don't care about your situation, they'll never look at how hard you're finding your financial situation, it's literally 'if you fall into this category, here's your grant'. If anything, they're going to make it harder to get the grant in the budget. However, you think that grant recipients are a waste of tax payers money? You're only looking at this in one perspective: "they get free money, I don't... boo hoo." I mean how many people do you think, on the grant actually go on the piss all the time? You do realise that you can't fail when you're on the grant or you **** up your payments and are left living on gulps of air and rice for five or six months. Really, if you had any proof, actual data on the negative benefits of the grant scheme, I'd love to see them I really would. However, from those whom I've encountered on the grant I can easily say that it is not a free ride or a piss up, it's hardship from the go. However, you're probably going to throw the "oh I know one chap who gets a ten grand and drinks it all and does no work and his parents are secret millionaires..."

Yes, other minor costs like paying €100/week in rent, or €10-€15 in ESB, the same in gas etc... and we haven't even put food in our bellies, tea into our cups and rubbish into our bins. By any chance are you living on a different planet?

Did you ever hear of integrated ticketing? It's where you can use one ticket for the bus/luas/metro etc... that's a simple system that most developed countries have, yet it's been on the books in this country for the last century. Do you honestly think something like that would work or could be implemented in any reasonable manner? Have you forgotten that the country is run by the most retarded people on the planet or has this slipped your mind? How much would it cost? What if you live in a poorly serviced area, which there are many in this God forsaken hell hole. What about private operators how would you encourage them? Are you not restricting peoples' mobility then? Is that constitutional?

The fact that you couldn't even spell accommodation just goes to show how ridiculous your statement was presented.

You probably love this idea then. It wouldn't work, it would cost millions to implement and it's simply the most retarded idea I've ever heard of, because you will end up with this...

You do realise how retarded this statement is? I mean, at least when I listen to AK phone show, the people have the excuse of a lack of education and general ignorance for their attitudes but this is coming from a supposed third level student, it's ridiculous. Prove it, conduct a study and examine the consumer habits of higher education grant recipients, or are you still learning about the Nash-Corneau equilibrium in the intro to microeconomics with McDowell?

Thank God you're not studying English or else Declan Kiberd would have a shit fit! However you think it's a shocking system, and do you not think spending €77 billion on loans worth €47 billion (or less) is not worse? Seriously, it's education no matter what way you look at it. Are you not entitled to be educated because your parents are too poor to pay? Really, is this the kind of country we're living in now, that we'll put up with some of the most corrupt politicians in Europe (next to Italy and most of Poland) and yet we're pissing about in an argument over grants for poor students. When times were good I never saw these threads, so when times are bad, bring out the social darwinism and take a sledge to the most vulnerable. It's disgusting.

Yes they have something like that in the US, and it works very well for them...

How do you propose they pay it back? Would this not be a waste of time and entail massive administrative costs??? Again, this smells of either a first year with their first taste of academia or a troll with nothing better to do.
Sure, while we're at it, let's get rid of the free breast examination clinics, the medical card, free secondary education? Sure lets go back to the good old days of the deValera's three 'Rs' because people were happier while dancing at the cross roads and shoveling shit on a farm, while the Doctor, the Priest and School Teacher took care of everyone in the village.

Again how can one pay it back with no job? What do you think after you earn your degree that employers are almost fapping to get you on a contract? The real world doesn't work like that. And the very idea of not only trying to 'cut costs' in this manner but the fact that one is stigmatised on the basis of income is grossly offensive (queuing for food at designated shops or handing over their special ticket to the surly bus driver). What your post has outlined with 'book stamps' etc... is without a doubt one of the most retarded ideas I've ever had the displeasure of reading. However it might have merit on the AK phone in show, so give Adrian a call or maybe even Gerry Ryan in the morning, he's gone extremely ultra right wing these days and would love to hear your ideas.
Now do you not have your exams this week? Is it not time to hit those books and don't forget to fill in your name and student number in full on the answer booklets.;)

lol. The fact you had counter all of my points by either correcting my spelling or throwing in a petty jibe sums it up. Your whole first paragraph sums it up, you admit the system is flawed. Thank you.

El Siglo · 09-12-2009 1:56pm

Chucky the tree wrote: »

lol. The fact you had counter all of my points by either correcting my spelling or throwing in a petty jibe sums it up. Your whole first paragraph sums it up, you admit the system is flawed. Thank you.

I didn't say the system was flawed, I said the people who run it are retarded, and they don't care about your circumstances (i.e. how hard things are for non-grant recipients etc...), they only care about your income. So, no I don't think the system is flawed, I think the people operating it are retarded and slow, there's a difference. Think about say a car for one moment, cars travel at high speeds, they take you where you want to go, they provide a level of freedom and mobility, yet hundreds of people are killed each year in car crashes, does that mean we should abandon the use of cars? No, of course not, people need to be more careful, and that's where I'm arguing from. The idea of a means tested grant, solely on the basis of income is incredibly objective and is the one thing in this country that isn't based on 'who you know'. Petty jibes? I countered your arguments, it wasn't meant to be pretty, shit happens get over it.

betafrog wrote:

No, because as El Siglo and Mr. Nice Guy refuse to grasp, the repayments are linked to the salary you earn when you leave college. You don't start repaying until your earning a certain amount and the repayments are indexed to your salary once you do. If you don't earn you don't pay until you do.

Where are we supposed to get jobs in this country, have you tried yet? I sure as hell have and so have a lot of my friends and yet the best any of us could manage was one chap working on a farm and another working on commission for airtricity. What if these loans were implemented, unemployment is still crap, what do you do when somebody emigrates? Hit them with massive interest when they get back? Will such a loan system be for the former grant recipients only? Why should the most financially vulnerable be forced into debt? If people are this right wing and neoliberal now, I'd hate think what you're going to be like in ten or twenty years time.;)

merc998 · 09-12-2009 2:24pm

Betafrog ur dead right grants out the window we're in a recession and its not vital to have them.get a part time job and pay ur way its the sensable thing and everyone with there heads screwed on would see that.

El Siglo · 09-12-2009 2:41pm

merc998 wrote: »

Betafrog ur dead right grants out the window we're in a recession and its not vital to have them.get a part time job and pay ur way its the sensable thing and everyone with there heads screwed on would see that.

Yes we're in a recession, sure lets kick the shit out of the poor... fucking disgraceful. Seriously, we're able to recapitalise the banks, €77 billion on NAMA, yet spending on something like grants for low income students is obviously crippling our economy. Read this if you want to know the flaws with the shite everyone is being fed with of late...

DeadMoney · 09-12-2009 3:33pm

merc998 wrote: »

Betafrog ur dead right grants out the window we're in a recession and its not vital to have them.get a part time job and pay ur way its the sensable thing and everyone with there heads screwed on would see that.

You have absolutely no ****ing clue what you are talking about. Betafrog has a constructive argument with some good points, you are just dumb and ignorant! Please go away.

DeadMoney · 09-12-2009 3:37pm

El Siglo wrote: »

Yes we're in a recession, sure lets kick the shit out of the poor... fucking disgraceful. Seriously, we're able to recapitalise the banks, €77 billion on NAMA, yet spending on something like grants for low income students is obviously crippling our economy. Read this if you want to know the flaws with the shite everyone is being fed with of late...

Don't incourage him man, he probably thinks foreign nationals 'tuk errr jobs' too.

El Siglo · 09-12-2009 3:54pm

DeadMoney wrote: »

Don't incourage him man, he probably thinks foreign nationals 'tuk errr jobs' too.

Yeh, sounds like a troll to me.

Chucky the tree · 09-12-2009 6:46pm

El Siglo wrote: »

Yes, other minor costs like paying €100/week in rent, or €10-€15 in ESB, the same in gas etc... and we haven't even put food in our bellies, tea into our cups and rubbish into our bins. By any chance are you living on a different planet?

Missed the whole point of providing student accomadation obviously. But students still living at home receive a grant don't they?

Did you ever hear of integrated ticketing? It's where you can use one ticket for the bus/luas/metro etc... that's a simple system that most developed countries have, yet it's been on the books in this country for the last century. Do you honestly think something like that would work or could be implemented in any reasonable manner? Have you forgotten that the country is run by the most retarded people on the planet or has this slipped your mind? How much would it cost? What if you live in a poorly serviced area, which there are many in this God forsaken hell hole. What about private operators how would you encourage them? Are you not restricting peoples' mobility then? Is that constitutional?

So every student who gets a grant uses two forms of travel now? Integrated tickets certainly aren't needed for this too work. Buses will get people a huge distance. If they can't be serviced by a bus then obviously other arrangements can be made. If people are so concerned about there mobility being restriced and possible consitutional issues then dont apply for a grand, simple.

The fact that you couldn't even spell accommodation just goes to show how ridiculous your statement was presented.

OMG I missed spelled a word, oh nos!!!! But **** it, lets not bother pointing out why it's ridiculous. Major College likes UCC, UCD, trinity and Limerick all provide campus facilities(mnay more aswell I'm sure) so why is it such a bad idea? 1st preference should go to people who are outside Dublin and on a grant to guarentee them a place to stay and it should be paid directly or else it should be calculated how it costs and give them the excact amount.

You probably love this idea then. It wouldn't work, it would cost millions to implement and it's simply the most retarded idea I've ever heard of, because you will end up with this...

Millions to implement? Do you have a study to back that up?:pac: Not sure why your linking to food stamps for the poor in america. Simply have all college canteens run a food stamp system.

You do realise how retarded this statement is? I mean, at least when I listen to AK phone show, the people have the excuse of a lack of education and general ignorance for their attitudes but this is coming from a supposed third level student, it's ridiculous. Prove it, conduct a study and examine the consumer habits of higher education grant recipients, or are you still learning about the Nash-Corneau equilibrium in the intro to microeconomics with McDowell?

Retardedly true is the problem with the statement.

Thank God you're not studying English or else Declan Kiberd would have a shit fit! However you think it's a shocking system, and do you not think spending €77 billion on loans worth €47 billion (or less) is not worse? Seriously, it's education no matter what way you look at it. Are you not entitled to be educated because your parents are too poor to pay? Really, is this the kind of country we're living in now, that we'll put up with some of the most corrupt politicians in Europe (next to Italy and most of Poland) and yet we're pissing about in an argument over grants for poor students. When times were good I never saw these threads, so when times are bad, bring out the social darwinism and take a sledge to the most vulnerable. It's disgusting.

What quality of education though? Colleges suffer due to not being able to get enough money from fee's and government cutbacks now. It's poor students that get grants though, so people who don't need it still get it. The system is flawed is people who don't need a grant are still receiving one.

Yes they have something like that in the US, and it works very well for them...

Again not relevant. I'm not saying we should bring out a nationwide food stamp program for everyone poor person.

How do you propose they pay it back? Would this not be a waste of time and entail massive administrative costs??? Again, this smells of either a first year with their first taste of academia or a troll with nothing better to do.
Sure, while we're at it, let's get rid of the free breast examination clinics, the medical card, free secondary education? Sure lets go back to the good old days of the deValera's three 'Rs' because people were happier while dancing at the cross roads and shoveling shit on a farm, while the Doctor, the Priest and School Teacher took care of everyone in the village.

How do I propose to pay it back? Lol, get a ****ing job maybe. The rest of your rant is great hyperbole, well done.

Again how can one pay it back with no job? What do you think after you earn your degree that employers are almost fapping to get you on a contract? The real world doesn't work like that. And the very idea of not only trying to 'cut costs' in this manner but the fact that one is stigmatised on the basis of income is grossly offensive (queuing for food at designated shops or handing over their special ticket to the surly bus driver). What your post has outlined with 'book stamps' etc... is without a doubt one of the most retarded ideas I've ever had the displeasure of reading. However it might have merit on the AK phone in show, so give Adrian a call or maybe even Gerry Ryan in the morning, he's gone extremely ultra right wing these days and would love to hear your ideas.
Now do you not have your exams this week? Is it not time to hit those books and don't forget to fill in your name and student number in full on the answer booklets.;)

So once you get your degree you plan on living on the dole for the rest of your life? Lol, maintenance grant clearly worked wonders for you so. Special bus tickets? Can poor people not use the standard monthly bus ticket everyone else does?

If they are so offended by all of this, then don't apply for a grant. I'm sure if that was the only choice they'd soon get over it. lol poor people tbh.

errlloyd · 09-12-2009 6:46pm

In the context of this thread the quotes like

"50% of people won't pay tax next year"

and

"40% of people pay 50% of tax"

are hilarious.

Pride Fighter · 09-12-2009 7:24pm

betafrog wrote: »

Well DeadMoney, seems like you'll be ok. Didn't hear anything about a cut in grants today,,,,

There is, 5%. Was not in the actual budget speech but is in the budget.

DeadMoney · 09-12-2009 7:45pm

Pride Fighter wrote: »

There is, 5%. Was not in the actual budget speech but is in the budget.

Yeah saw this earlier, was expecting much worse, 5% is pretty reasonable.

IM0 · 09-12-2009 7:46pm

Pride Fighter wrote: »

There is, 5%. Was not in the actual budget speech but is in the budget.

and on that bombshell lets end the show, we have what we need the question has been answered and the thread raped and hijacked with people with adjendas.

Mods close this trainwreck and just start up an inhouse politics thread for all the people who love to moan argue and spend too much time with their parents watching the news and moaning, when there are some who are working their butts off keeping their head above water and hanging on.

dyl10 · 09-12-2009 7:54pm

me@ucd wrote: »

Mods close this trainwreck and just start up an inhouse politics thread for all the people who love to moan argue and spend too much time with their parents watching the news and moaning, when there are some who are working their butts off keeping their head above water and hanging on.

If you don't like it, don't read it?

Neopolitan · 09-12-2009 7:59pm

betafrog wrote: »

C's parent work as well. But because they're self employed they can see they earn as much as they want. So despite being considerably well off, C get's the same grant as A, but because they grew up living in a house of dishonesty they pretty much piss away the grant. C spends there college years drinking and does pretty much feck all afterwards.

Self employed people earn as much as they want? Why isn't everyone self employed then?

IM0 · 09-12-2009 8:14pm

dyl10 wrote: »

If you don't like it, don't read it?

do you know what a hijack is

the origional question has been answered and there is the PO forum for the budget specifically set up.

again Mods.

El Siglo · 09-12-2009 9:30pm

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Missed the whole point of providing student accomodation obviously. But students still living at home receive a grant don't they?

In respect to their distance from the college, it's called the 'adjacent rate'.

So every student who gets a grant uses two forms of travel now? Integrated tickets certainly aren't needed for this too work. Buses will get people a huge distance. If they can't be serviced by a bus then obviously other arrangements can be made. If people are so concerned about there mobility being restriced and possible consitutional issues then dont apply for a grant, simple.

So trying to maintain ones mobility means one should not apply for a grant, that's great, I love the double standards of this system I really do. Sure why not ask them to wear a little golden Star of David? Absolutely ridiculous, it would never work as it could be argued as being unconstitutional (Article 40, Paragraph 4, Subsection 1), so it would never be implemented and would waste time and money in the court.

OMG I missed spelled a word, oh nos!!!! But **** it, lets not bother pointing out why it's ridiculous. Major College likes UCC, UCD, trinity and Limerick all provide campus facilities(mnay more aswell I'm sure) so why is it such a bad idea? 1st preference should go to people who are outside Dublin and on a grant to guarentee them a place to stay and it should be paid directly or else it should be calculated how it costs and give them the exact amount.

Right, sounds like a fair idea to give accommodation to non-adjacent grant recipients, but would that not mean discriminating against students who are not in receipt of this 'new grant' who are from outside of Dublin and do not know Dublin or have family in Dublin (i.e. your typical country person starting college). So because they're not poor enough, they shouldn't be allowed to adjust to the transition of living in Dublin as much as the former? You see, even for non-grant recipients it isn't fair.

Millions to implement? Do you have a study to back that up?:pac: Not sure why your linking to food stamps for the poor in america. Simply have all college canteens run a food stamp system.

Food stamps is an analogy for what your proposing. However, it is ridiculous to propose such a system, because it's open to manipulation. At least with the grant you receive your payment and dispose of it as you wish, and in a lot of cases not wasting it on shite canteen food.

Retardedly true is the problem with the statement.

Fair enough.

What quality of education though? Colleges suffer due to not being able to get enough money from fee's and government cutbacks now. It's poor students that get grants though, so people who don't need it still get it. The system is flawed is people who don't need a grant are still receiving one.

The system is flawed because people like Brady, Nolan, Hegarty et al. receive grossly overestimated wages, not because of grant recipients. They argue "it's because we'd earn this in the private sector and we're worth it", yeh but the private sector at present is pretty fucked, so their wages should be capped, can you imagine how much money could be saved or spent on the actual universities themselves?

Again not relevant. I'm saying we should bring out a nationwide food stamp program for everyone poor person.

Again two tier citizenry, why should the poor pay for the party of the rich? Would it not be more equitable to help the poor as much as possible as it helps to create 'social capital' and equality? Or are these just silly ideals of some crazy bolsheviks?

How do I propose to pay it back? Lol, get a ****ing job maybe. The rest of your rant is great hyperbole, well done.

Again, let me make this as clear as possible:

There are no fucking jobs in this fucking country.

So once you get your degree you plan on living on the dole for the rest of your life? Lol, maintenance grant clearly worked wonders for you so. Special bus tickets? Can poor people not use the standard monthly bus ticket everyone else does? If they are so offended by all of this, then don't apply for a grant. I'm sure if that was the only choice they'd soon get over it. lol poor people tbh.

No the maintenance grant allowed me to be educated, it doesn't stipulate 'this will get you a job'. I'm not on the dole and don't intend on being on it any time soon (I'm a postgrad). However, it's not the fault of the graduate that they can't get a job, it's called a recession. Do you think unemployment is fun or enjoyable, I mean do you see an unemployed graduate the same way as a waster who's never got as far as the school gates? Obviously a graduate wants to work, however if there is no demand there for their labour how the fuck are they going to pay back their loans? And if they did get a job, how much would they have to earn before they start seeing deductions in their pay for this student loan? And after today's budget, I doubt anyone will be earning much anyway.

Here's a question for you, have you ever lived in poverty?
No?
Then you haven't a fucking clue about it.

Chucky the tree · 09-12-2009 10:08pm

El Siglo wrote: »

So trying to maintain ones mobility means one should not apply for a grant, that's great, I love the double standards of this system I really do. Sure why not ask them to wear a little golden Star of David? Absolutely ridiculous, it would never work as it could be argued as being unconstitutional (Article 40, Paragraph 4, Subsection 1), so it would never be implemented and would waste time and money in the court.

There perfectly entitled to maintain there mobility of the bus, with there monthly bus ticket. Would a sickel and hammer not be more appropriate? I learned that in politics 101. Again, no one is depriving them on their personal liberty. There simply been given an option on using there bus ticket or not. If they don't want to get the bus in there perfectly entitled to find other alternatives, ones they aren't just going to be handed money for though.

Right, sounds like a fair idea to give accommodation to non-adjacent grant recipients, but would that not mean discriminating against students who are not in receipt of this 'new grant' who are from outside of Dublin and do not know Dublin or have family in Dublin (i.e. your typical country person starting college). So because they're not poor enough, they shouldn't be allowed to adjust to the transition of living in Dublin as much as the former? You see, even for non-grant recipients it isn't fair.

Best bit of education they will get, life isn't fair kids. Deal with it. With places to rent being readily available in Dublin now I can't see anyone having major difficulty finding a place very near to college or at the least on a bus route.

Food stamps is an analogy for what your proposing. However, it is ridiculous to propose such a system, because it's open to manipulation. At least with the grant you receive your payment and dispose of it as you wish, and in a lot of cases not wasting it on shite canteen food.

Every system is open to manipulation, you can hardly claim the current one isn't being manipulated. Yes, they dispose of it with alcohol instead in a lot of cases, a much healthier option then canteen food!

The system is flawed because people like Brady, Nolan, Hegarty et al. receive grossly overestimated wages, not because of grant recipients. They argue "it's because we'd earn this in the private sector and we're worth it", yeh but the private sector at present is pretty fucked, so their wages should be capped, can you imagine how much money could be saved or spent on the actual universities themselves?

Cant argue with this, PS pay-rates are a joke.

Again two tier citizenry, why should the poor pay for the party of the rich? Would it not be more equitable to help the poor as much as possible as it helps to create 'social capital' and equality? Or are these just silly ideals of some crazy bolsheviks?

That was a mistake on my part, I meant to stick not in there. A food stamp system for every one is what I think should happen, I don't think it's a horrible idea for students though.

Again, let me make this as clear as possible:

There are no fucking jobs in this fucking country.

There will be jobs again though, so in 3-4 years time when they are finished there degrees employment opportunities might be improved, if not they use there social welfare to pay back the loan. :pac:

No the maintenance grant allowed me to be educated, it doesn't stipulate 'this will get you a job'. I'm not on the dole and don't intend on being on it any time soon (I'm a postgrad). However, it's not the fault of the graduate that they can't get a job, it's called a recession. Do you think unemployment is fun or enjoyable, I mean do you see an unemployed graduate the same way as a waster who's never got as far as the school gates? Obviously a graduate wants to work, however if there is no demand there for their labour how the fuck are they going to pay back their loans? And if they did get a job, how much would they have to earn before they start seeing deductions in their pay for this student loan? And after today's budget, I doubt anyone will be earning much anyway.

Here's a question for you, have you ever lived in poverty?
No?
Then you haven't a fucking clue about it.

Please, it's a small enough loan. You make it sound as if there being lumped with a bloody mortgage for 30 years. A loan under €10k would not at all difficult to pay back. Technically to qualify for a grant no but I didn't realize you needed to experience something first hand to ever comment on it.

Cuts in Grants in tomorrows budget??

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