Who is responsible?

miseeire

I listened to Joe Duffy today on Lifeline and the first topic was about an elderly gentleman who lives alone and he did not buy a dog licence.He was taken from his home in Dundalk and brought to Mountjoy.A garda car brought him to the prison and he made his own way home on a bus.Now I appreciate the law has to be upheld but surely there are instances where common sense should prevail.This man was a law abiding citizen all his life.Look at the expense involved.My question is "who allows a situation like this to end in a decent man facing the prospect of 20 days behind bars with people who belong there"?

meditraitor

No licence = Fine, dont pay the fine = Jail.

Fair enough.

Dogs are stupid anyway

Cróga

miseeire wrote: »

I listened to Joe Duffy today on Lifeline and the first topic was about an elderly gentleman who lives alone and he did not buy a dog licence.He was taken from his home in Dundalk and brought to Mountjoy.A garda car brought him to the prison and he made his own way home on a bus.Now I appreciate the law has to be upheld but surely there are instances where common sense should prevail.This man was a law abiding citizen all his life.Look at the expense involved.My question is "who allows a situation like this to end in a decent man facing the prospect of 20 days behind bars with people who belong there"?

What the hell? Since when do the people need to ask permission (thats what a license is) to own a dog? The Garda wasnt upholding the law he was enforcing statutes to collect revenue for the corporation known as Republic of Ireland.

thecommander

Cróga wrote: »

Since when do the people need to ask permission (thats what a license is) to own a dog?

1986

Cróga

thecommander wrote: »

1986

says who?

robbie_998

Cróga wrote: »

What the hell? Since when do the people need to ask permission (thats what a license is) to own a dog? The Garda wasnt upholding the law he was enforcing statutes to collect revenue for the corporation known as Republic of Ireland.

agreed !

i mean driving you need a license, good but TV license ? dog license ?

i mean come on !

as for the guy in the OP, would they not have atleast brought him home or give some kind of compensation for the troubles caused ! (ok yeah he shouldve paid the license, but still !)

Cróga

robbie_998 wrote: »

agreed !

i mean driving you need a license, good but TV license ? dog license ?

i mean come on !

as for the guy in the OP, would they not have atleast brought him home or give some kind of compensation for the troubles caused ! (ok yeah he shouldve paid the license, but still !)

If men are only second to God are we required to ask permission from other men to do something that is already our lawful right to do?

louisa200

jesus id hate to be a guard these days, facin financial ruin, being an underpaid revenue collector for a government who is shafting them lol.. picking up elderly people who have law breaking dogs, throwing them in the slammer and getting a bus home (soon the guards and the bus drivers will be out on strike so that scenario probably wont happen again lol)
poor old geezer.. but as a pp said, he should have been abiding by the law 9however much of an ass the law is0, especially when the country needs all the revenue (including the 14 euro or whatever it is for a doggy licence) to keep the cuntry afloat lol xxx

TobyZiegler

Control of Dogs Act 1986.

I didnt hear the Joe Duffy interview but nobody gets brought to jail without getting some notice that they were doing something wrong and then notice of the fine. DId he not get these?

Cróga

TobyZiegler wrote: »

Control of Dogs Act 1986.

An act? Words on a piece of paper is all that is! Which only apply to a person (a corporation in legal land), not a man or a woman. Statutes dont apply to the men and women on the land because they're sovereign. The government employees arent, they're servants. The people dont need permission to do something that is already their lawful right to do like travel in their private conveyance, own a dog, own a tv, etc. This is self evident is it not?

Even Bunreacht na hEireann agrees, the real one, the Gaelic version not the watered down English version. Notice Article 41.1.1

"The State acknowledges that the Family is the basic primary group-unit of/for society according to nature, and that it is a moral institution which has inalienable and invincible rights which are more ancient and higher than any human statute."

thecommander

Cróga wrote: »

An act? Words on a piece of paper is all that is! Which only apply to a person (a corporation in legal land), not a man or a woman. Statutes dont apply to the men and women on the land because they're sovereign.

Nonsense. Try that argument in a court and see how far your makey uppy legalese gets you.

shaneybaby

Cróga wrote: »

An act? Words on a piece of paper is all that is! Which only apply to a person (a corporation in legal land), not a man or a woman. Statutes dont apply to the men and women on the land because they're sovereign. The government employees arent, they're servants. The people dont need permission to do something that is already their lawful right to do like travel in their private conveyance, own a dog, own a tv, etc. This is self evident is it not?

Even Bunreacht na hEireann agrees, the real one, the Gaelic version not the watered down English version. Notice Article 41.1.1

I don't remember dogs or tvs being mentioned in the constitution....
<takes out little blue book from back pocket and commences re-education>

Jev/N

Cróga, I'm sick of hearing these nonsensical arguments you have.

R&R is thataway ---->

Wile E. Coyote

Who is responsible?

The owner is responsible for making sure he has his dog licence. It's fairly well know law, with the exception of where ever Croga lives, that you have to have a licence and as previously said he would have received plenty of warnings about it.

Cróga

thecommander wrote: »

Nonsense. Try that argument in a court and see how far your makey uppy legalese gets you.

Are you assuming I would argue with the court, as if I would lower myself to beg other men?

If men who are second to God only, come together and set up a government. Doesnt that make the government servant to the people? Men are born with inalienable rights, how can a government give or take them?

How can an act of Parliament (statute) apply to the men and women on the land when they are sovereign?

Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of Law 1996, defines a legal person as : a body of persons or an entity (as a corporation) considered as having many of the rights and responsibilities of a natural person and esp. the capacity to sue and be sued.

Black's Law Dictionary 6th Edition, pg. 791, defines 'person' as follows: "In general usage, a human being (i.e. natural person), though by statute term may include labor organizations, partnerships, associations, corporations, legal representatives, trustees, trustees in bankruptcy, or receivers."

Oran's Dictionary of the Law, West Group 1999, defines Person as: 1. A human being (a "natural" person). 2. A corporation (an "artificial" person). Corporations are treated as persons in many legal situations. Also, the word "person" includes corporations in most definitions in this dictionary. 3. Any other "being" entitled to sue as a legal entity (a government, an association, a group of Trustees, etc.). 4. The plural of person is persons, not people (see that word).

As you can see a person is basically a man with status, how do they get status? By acting in a certain capacity such as a government employee.

Cróga

Wile E. Coyote wrote: »

The owner is responsible for making sure he has his dog licence. It's fairly well know law, with the exception of where ever Croga lives, that you have to have a licence and as previously said he would have received plenty of warnings about it.

I dont have to have a license as im not defined anywhere in that act. It doesnt apply to me. If you think you are required fair enough sucks to be you :P

Black's law revised 4th edition defines a statute as; 'A legislated rule of a society which has been given the force of law by the consent of the governed, a rule as of a corporation.'

Firstly you might have noticed FORCE of law. That's not to say it IS law, it just has the same force. But how does attain that force? Though the CONSENT of the governed. Not the majority of the governed or the representatives, but the governed themselves. Next 'A legislated rule of a society...' which society is it a legislated rule of? Most would say 'well, this one. This society.' And that's a logical thing to do, but for a maxim in law(fundamental undisputed truth in law) which says 'If you know not the name of the thing all knowledge of the thing must perish.' So again which society is it a rule of? It needs to have a definite name. And it is a rule of the society which created it, and in our case this actually means the law society, of which I'm not a member and therefore it can only have the force of law over me if I consent to it, and therefore, I need not ask permission to travel by car, own a dog, own a tv... etc... all lawful rights.

Jev/N

Eh no, have a look at S.1 of the aforementioned Act

Reloc8

Croga, I agree you don't have to a have a licence at all.

If you don't and you have a dog you could be fined, and if you don't pay the fine you could be imprisoned, but you don't have to have a licence.

This is all a variant of 'I reject your reality and substitute my own'. Perfectly legitimate for you to do so but ultimately who cares ?

Miaireland

robbie_998 wrote: »

agreed !

i mean driving you need a license, good but TV license ? dog license ?

i mean come on !

as for the guy in the OP, would they not have atleast brought him home or give some kind of compensation for the troubles caused ! (ok yeah he shouldve paid the license, but still !)

Why should we pay him compensation for the "troubles caused".

freefromgov2009

Miaireland wrote: »

Why should we pay him compensation for the "troubles caused".

why do you need a license to drive i wonder, dont we have a common law right to travel freely across the land, if not where did it go, are we slaves now and we can only do what we want if the government of ireland say so, they are after all a company trading for profit,https://smallbusiness.dnb.com/ePlatform/servlet/IballValidationCmd?referrer=gwslookup&storeId=10001&catalogId=70001&busName=government%20of%20ireland&state=undefined&country=IE&cm_mmc=dnb*home*gws*lookup could it be that we are being lied to, is that something the gov are known for, after all im still waiting for all the jobs we have been promised with the lisbon lie

freefromgov

freefromgov2009 wrote: »

why do you need a license to drive i wonder, dont we have a common law right to travel freely across the land, if not where did it go, are we slaves now and we can only do what we want if the government of ireland say so, they are after all a company trading for profit,https://smallbusiness.dnb.com/ePlatform/servlet/IballValidationCmd?referrer=gwslookup&storeId=10001&catalogId=70001&busName=government%20of%20ireland&state=undefined&country=IE&cm_mmc=dnb*home*gws*lookup could it be that we are being lied to, is that something the gov are known for, after all im still waiting for all the jobs we have been promised with the lisbon lie

Couldn't help but notice your handle ?????

Reloc8

What an interesting first post...mini-Croga

freefromgov2009 wrote: »

why do you need a license to drive i wonder, dont we have a common law right to travel freely across the land, if not where did it go, are we slaves now and we can only do what we want if the government of ireland say so, they are after all a company trading for profit,https://smallbusiness.dnb.com/ePlatform/servlet/IballValidationCmd?referrer=gwslookup&storeId=10001&catalogId=70001&busName=government%20of%20ireland&state=undefined&country=IE&cm_mmc=dnb*home*gws*lookup could it be that we are being lied to, is that something the gov are known for, after all im still waiting for all the jobs we have been promised with the lisbon lie

Actually I'm pretty sure there's something in this...I know I was born with a common law ability to drive a mechanically propelled vehicle arising preternaturally by virtue of Niall of the Nine Hostages, the Hill of Tara, Brian Boru, Padraig Pearse, Johnny Logan, and Ray Houghton's goal in Stugart '88. Its contained in the Welsh language translation of 'Hold me Now' (not that garbage english language version - 'Dream, Don't be afraid the Dreams not real' ??? Nonsense !!) That said I put in for the test just in case anyone asked me to prove it.

Meanwhile, while I waited to take my driving test, I found my right to travel completely unaffected by whether I held a driving licence - that was a matter of logic however so I completely ignored it as it inconvenienced me...also it seemed relevant to a discussion other people were having, so I wanted to make sure not to make reference to it.

Instead I engaged them about Fortycoats, and his right to keep goats under Brehon Law. That sorted them out.

But anyway, I digress, deliberately.

So, the minute the driving licence arrived (I did the test but as a person not a poltergeist) I ripped it up, as what right had they to make me sit a driving test and therefore apply for one voluntarily. I got stopped by a member of an garda siochana the same day - he asked to produce my driving licence at a garda station of my choice within 10 days. I told him I would do so at the one in Tir na nOg, if he could prove that he was not a figment of his own imagination and the holder of no legal powers in consequence.

Notwithstanding his lack of legal powers he seemed to have magical powers as the next thing I knew I was handcuffed and in the back of his vehicle (I know it must have been magic because there's no way he did this legally - he was at best relying on some class of a makey-uppy statute). I ended up not in Tir na nOg, the garda station of my choice, but some place just down the road. With tired eyes the desk sergeant looked at me and said 'ah jaysus not you again. I had your border collie in last week giving out that you asked him to pretend to be a telly'.

Cróga

Reloc8 wrote: »

Croga, I agree you don't have to a have a licence at all.

If you don't and you have a dog you could be fined, and if you don't pay the fine you could be imprisoned, but you don't have to have a licence.

This is all a variant of 'I reject your reality and substitute my own'. Perfectly legitimate for you to do so but ultimately who cares ?

The Garda Siochana communique says the Garda police by consent, law dictionaries say statutes have the force of law, the constitution says the government can only promulgate laws, you tell me I have to have a license because if not i face a fine.... so what is the truth?

Is governance mandatory or consensual?

Reloc8

I specifically said you do not have to have a license - its a matter for yourself entirely, your own personal choice

freefromgov2009

Reloc8 wrote: »

I specifically said you do not have to have a license - its a matter for yourself entirely, your own personal choice

you are equal with every single man or woman on this earth, god gave man dominian over the earth, you have a right to travel freely anywhere,. but guards dont know this info they think legal and lawfull are the same thing, because that is what they are taught in templemore, remember this my friend legal is for the person, lawfull is to the man, i am not a person, a person is a legaly created entity who has been assigned certain attributes, any mail you get with your name in block capitals is not to you it is for your fiction,and they need you to stand on behalf of that fiction and say yes im MR JOE BLOGS because a fiction cant stand in court , drive a car or be arrested, so they trick you to standing as the fiction, when a guarda says do you understand and you say yes , you are saying you will stand under anything he says, it is a con so if you want a drivers license, get one but all you are doing is giving up your intitlements for benifits of being a person. i would rather keep my freedom

freefromgov

Reloc8 wrote: »

I specifically said you do not have to have a license - its a matter for yourself entirely, your own personal choice

Ah , I see yet again those that would like to assert that they have clarity of mind and the ability to think critically , have stooped yet again to divisive tactics to obfuscate and confuse the concerns of a mind that has by the looks of things taken the time to do some actual research on the matter ..... oh how the once mighty must deride their proficiency in a vain attempt to cast the strawman argument at one of the new powers to be.

Oh Sorrow ! I bid thee welcome

Peace

Reloc8

*thunk*w;;fewGUO'HMVDS;fewl;khfelkheFLKL*ZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz*

Cróga

Reloc8 wrote: »

*thunk*w;;fewGUO'HMVDS;fewl;khfelkheFLKL*ZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz*

Try that argument in court and see how far it gets you

freefromgov2009

miseeire wrote: »

I listened to Joe Duffy today on Lifeline and the first topic was about an elderly gentleman who lives alone and he did not buy a dog licence.He was taken from his home in Dundalk and brought to Mountjoy.A garda car brought him to the prison and he made his own way home on a bus.Now I appreciate the law has to be upheld but surely there are instances where common sense should prevail.This man was a law abiding citizen all his life.Look at the expense involved.My question is "who allows a situation like this to end in a decent man facing the prospect of 20 days behind bars with people who belong there"?

in there eyes he is not a gentleman he is a person, big diff there. they have quotas to fill any person will do just ask a guard who many acts and statutes are for a man

seamus

This is yet another case of "Man breaks law, goes to jail" dressed up as, "Man jailed for nothing" by an anti-authority agenda.

The man didn't get a dog licence. He was prosecuted and fined for it. He didn't pay the fine, so he went to jail for ignoring a court ruling.

The circumstances behind it are largely irrelevant - the fact that the warden let him go when he paid a certain amount of the fine demonstrates that there is in fact plenty of humanity and leeway in the justice system, and nothing has gone wrong with the justice system in this case. If the warden was to play it by the book, he would have left the man in jail for twenty days.

The reporters and hacks should be ashamed of themselves for writing this tripe and putting their name to it. Seriously, go find an actual story of mistreatment and human suffering and do something worthwhile with your life.

CreepingDeath

seamus wrote: »

This is yet another case of "Man breaks law, goes to jail" dressed up as, "Man jailed for nothing" by an anti-authority agenda.

The man didn't get a dog licence. He was prosecuted and fined for it. He didn't pay the fine, so he went to jail for ignoring a court ruling.

Did you see Prime Time investigates on social welfare fraud ?
So this guy gets jailed for a €12.70 license.
A Nigerian woman who scammed €130,000 out of the social welfare system walks away scot free.

Shakes head... the country is circling the drain when judges are afraid to lock up the real criminals.

This is a load of bull crap. I come from a family of guards and have some friends that are guards, but i am now loosing alot of respect for them. Nothing personal with any of them but how things are run .

Every day i witness at least 3 drug deals, were i work in the city centre. I have never seen a guard arrest them. We make complaints and the fall on deaf ear's.

Every day i see guards giving tickets to people who have turned down the wrong street. While these people are getting their tickets there is a deal going down in plain sight .

The nail in the coffin for me was when somebody was trying to break into a neighbours house. She was there on her own with 2 kids. I called her to say what was happening. She called the police and explained to them that he was breaking into the house as they were speaking.

She called me back crying to do somthing. Eventually i had to go out and confront the guy putting myself at risk. I managed to scare him away, but most of the street were shocked when the police arrived an hour and 30 minutes later.

They were happy enough that he was gone but didnt even bother to get a description from me. They didnt even talk to me. They just got in the car and drove off.

I read things like this and they piss me off even more.

rasper

I'v two dogs (rescued from the pound), I refuse to purchase and fund the needless destruction of 15,000 dogs per year by the local authorities , when the state acknowleges the problem and takes steps to fix the root of the problem instead of a tax going directly to mass extermination then I will gladly pay up.
I don't care about the €12.50 as I'm an annual member of a major animal charity as well my local charity, both my dogs have been rescued and neutered so I'm the last person that should finance these horrific deeds

shaneybaby

Deleted User wrote: »

This is a load of bull crap. I come from a family of guards and have some friends that are guards, but i am now loosing alot of respect for them. Nothing personal with any of them but how things are run .

Every day i witness at least 3 drug deals, were i work in the city centre. I have never seen a guard arrest them. We make complaints and the fall on deaf ear's.

Every day i see guards giving tickets to people who have turned down the wrong street. While these people are getting their tickets there is a deal going down in plain sight .

The nail in the coffin for me was when somebody was trying to break into a neighbours house. She was there on her own with 2 kids. I called her to say what was happening. She called the police and explained to them that he was breaking into the house as they were speaking.

She called me back crying to do somthing. Eventually i had to go out and confront the guy putting myself at risk. I managed to scare him away, but most of the street were shocked when the police arrived an hour and 30 minutes later.

They were happy enough that he was gone but didnt even bother to get a description from me. They didnt even talk to me. They just got in the car and drove off.

I read things like this and they piss me off even more.

That's pretty appalling. Have you complained to the ombusman?

shaneybaby

rasper wrote: »

I'v two dogs (rescued from the pound), I refuse to purchase and fund the needless destruction of 15,000 dogs per year by the local authorities , when the state acknowleges the problem and takes steps to fix the root of the problem instead of a tax going directly to mass extermination then I will gladly pay up.
I don't care about the €12.50 as I'm an annual member of a major animal charity as well my local charity, both my dogs have been rescued and neutered so I'm the last person that should finance these horrific deeds

While i get your point-ish one can't just pick and choose what licenses or taxes to pay. I don't particluarly think we should be spending X% of our National budget on funding patricks day parade trips for ministers. Doesn't mean i can go pay 100% minus X% of my tax each year.

danash

On the day that we are about to see the biggest cuts in history does nobody see the madness in the cost of the process...


3 guards - most likely on overtime, qualifying for some outrageous allowance for accompanying a dangerous prisoner, waiting time in the prison, subsistence allowance for travelling outside of their district, petrol for the car.

8 Prison guards, more allowances, more subsistence etc.


The real problem here is the appalling management in the guards/public sector overall that allows these costs to be expended to recover a 12.50 licence and probably a 50 euro fine.


Is it any wonder that the public sector costs are as high as they are -? Where is this famous discretion that our Gardai are lauded for ? Could they not have long fingered the task and gone about some other duty or is it all a racket to qualify for the allowances and overtime and a day out in Dublin?

The next time the local superintendent gives out about not having resources to pursue real crime he should look at this debacle and wonder where his budget went.


I work in the private sector and if I allowed these costs to be incurred on such a futile task then I would be toast. Not so in our glorious public sector.

Where is Mr Stone in lobbying his management for the more efficient use of Garda resources ? He might get a bit of public support if he stood up for common sense in this debate.

I accept the man broke the law - but the local Super needs to take a good hard look at how he uses his(increasingly) scarce resources.


You and I are paying for this - and putting up with it !

rasper

shaneybaby wrote: »

While i get your point-ish one can't just pick and choose what licenses or taxes to pay. I don't particluarly think we should be spending X% of our National budget on funding patricks day parade trips for ministers. Doesn't mean i can go pay 100% minus X% of my tax each year.

I know it won't stand up as a legal argument but it is about my own principles, anyone who has been inside a local authority dog pound shudders to think that a dog licence funds it

thecommander

danash wrote: »

Where is this famous discretion that our Gardai are lauded for ?

If its a warrant then they don't have discretion.

Wile E. Coyote

Deleted User wrote: »

I called her to say what was happening. She called the police and explained to them that he was breaking into the house as they were speaking.

You called her? Why didn't you just call the police yourself?

danash

thecommander wrote: »

If its a warrant then they don't have discretion.

Are you really saying that as soon as a warrant arrives in a station it goes to the top of the workstack to be issued that day ?

And if it does - it really shows how bad the management are to act on it....and us fools to put up with this ridiculous waste of our taxes.

Why didn't PJ Stone suggest this as a legislative change to save money and protect his pay scales ? Is it something to do with the gravy train that 3 Guards get on to escort a poor old man ( who broke the law) to prison.

If this is the law then the solution is for 'clever' people to change the law.

Mad Mad Mad.

Wile E. Coyote

freefromgov2009 wrote: »

you are equal with every single man or woman on this earth, god gave man dominian over the earth, you have a right to travel freely anywhere,. but guards dont know this info they think legal and lawfull are the same thing, because that is what they are taught in templemore, remember this my friend legal is for the person, lawfull is to the man, i am not a person, a person is a legaly created entity who has been assigned certain attributes, any mail you get with your name in block capitals is not to you it is for your fiction,and they need you to stand on behalf of that fiction and say yes im MR JOE BLOGS because a fiction cant stand in court , drive a car or be arrested, so they trick you to standing as the fiction, when a guarda says do you understand and you say yes , you are saying you will stand under anything he says, it is a con so if you want a drivers license, get one but all you are doing is giving up your intitlements for benifits of being a person. i would rather keep my freedom

So I take it you don't have a driving or tv licence. Or own a house, have a bank account or even a job because by your own arguement you would have to be your 'fictional' self to have any of these and giving up your 'freedom' as a result.

Wile E. Coyote

danash wrote: »

Are you really saying that as soon as a warrant arrives in a station it goes to the top of the workstack to be issued that day ?

And if it does - it really shows how bad the management are to act on it....and us fools to put up with this ridiculous waste of our taxes.

Why didn't PJ Stone suggest this as a legislative change to save money and protect his pay scales ? Is it something to do with the gravy train that 3 Guards get on to escort a poor old man ( who broke the law) to prison.

If this is the law then the solution is for 'clever' people to change the law.

Mad Mad Mad.

What difference does it make if it only arrived at the station that day. You'd make the same complaint about wasting tax payers money if it had been sitting there for a month before they acted on it.

Wiley1

freefromgov2009 wrote: »

why do you need a license to drive i wonder, dont we have a common law right to travel freely across the land, if not where did it go, are we slaves now and we can only do what we want if the government of ireland say so, they are after all a company trading for profit,https://smallbusiness.dnb.com/ePlatform/servlet/IballValidationCmd?referrer=gwslookup&storeId=10001&catalogId=70001&busName=government%20of%20ireland&state=undefined&country=IE&cm_mmc=dnb*home*gws*lookup could it be that we are being lied to, is that something the gov are known for, after all im still waiting for all the jobs we have been promised with the lisbon lie

Great stuff, I'm with you....

shaneybaby

rasper wrote: »

I know it won't stand up as a legal argument but it is about my own principles, anyone who has been inside a local authority dog pound shudders to think that a dog licence funds it

First day on the job in the legal world and my master told me golden rule. never go to court on principle.
While admirable your principles may be it is no excuse, and cannot ever be an excuse, for not following the laws of the state.

Wiley1

freefromgov2009 wrote: »

you are equal with every single man or woman on this earth, god gave man dominian over the earth, you have a right to travel freely anywhere,. but guards dont know this info they think legal and lawfull are the same thing, because that is what they are taught in templemore, remember this my friend legal is for the person, lawfull is to the man, i am not a person, a person is a legaly created entity who has been assigned certain attributes, any mail you get with your name in block capitals is not to you it is for your fiction,and they need you to stand on behalf of that fiction and say yes im MR JOE BLOGS because a fiction cant stand in court , drive a car or be arrested, so they trick you to standing as the fiction, when a guarda says do you understand and you say yes , you are saying you will stand under anything he says, it is a con so if you want a drivers license, get one but all you are doing is giving up your intitlements for benifits of being a person. i would rather keep my freedom

`

Again brilliant.....no further comments required.