Job Losses

dfbemt

Just announced

An Post to shed 1375 jobs, out of approx 10,000. Initially voluntary redundancies being sought but if not enough come forward they are looking for compulsory.

Also, 150 jobs going at National Irish Bank, plus approx 50% of branches to close.

How many more job losses can the country tolerate with biggies like Aer Lingus, Dublin Bus, Bus Eireann yet to come. We haven't even hit the expected New Year job losses in the retail sector yet.

Serious stuff.

hinault

It is an extremely serious situation.

The economy needs people to spend - to spend prudently I might add.
But our govt hasn't got the money to stimulate this economy.

Therefore every job lost - be they public or private jobs being lost - drives another nail in to this ailing economic coffin.

Jarren

So...we din't hit the rock bottom yet...OMG

The_Honeybadger

Just heard on the Radio that massive layoffs can be expected in the semi-state sector after xmas after they get a royal going over in tomorrows budget. Many of these workers wouldnt be permanent employees so can be let go pretty easily. Hard to see where jobs can be created for the amount of unemployed we will have. Its sure to hit 500k if it hasnt already with our smoke and mirror figures.

prinz

mickeyk wrote: »

Hard to see where jobs can be created for the amount of unemployed we will have.

Don't look now but.. http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/60-telecommunications-jobs-for-waterford-437344.html ............jobs!!

ei.sdraob

hinault wrote: »

But our govt hasn't got the money to stimulate this economy.

what do you call the 50 odd billion entering the economy via welfare and PS every year?

if thats not a stimulus i dont know what is

that would be analogues to a 7 trillion $ stimulus in USA for example

Rulmeq

prinz wrote: »

Don't look now but.. http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/60-telecommunications-jobs-for-waterford-437344.html ............jobs!!

1300 gone, 60 gained

The_Honeybadger

prinz wrote: »

Don't look now but.. http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/60-telecommunications-jobs-for-waterford-437344.html ............jobs!!

Its a start I guess but Im very worried tbh, all of this uncertainty etc is so depressing. Many workers dont know if they will still have their jobs next week never mind next year. No wonder people are keeping their money in their pockets.

gandalf

Don't forget about the 150 lost with NIB yesterday.....

Dannyboy83

gandalf wrote: »

Don't forget about the 150 lost with NIB yesterday.....

And 150 for Cork.
http://www.newstalk.ie/news/business/150-job-losses-for-cork/

Dannyboy83

Good morning Ladies and Gentlemen, we are dismayed to welcome you aboard, you are now entering the Irish Depression tunnel.
Departure time 2009, Estimated Arrival Time: 2016.
I suggest you Buckle up!!!!!!

Dannyboy83

p.s
The property market is about to take a VERY big nosedive.
NAMA is going to be a catastrophe unless they hold everything until about 2020.

leninbenjamin

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

p.s The property market is about to take a VERY big nosedive.

What property market?

ei.sdraob

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Estimated Arrival Time: 2016.

arent you an optimist

masteroftherealm

ei.sdraob wrote: »

what do you call the 50 odd billion entering the economy via welfare and PS every year?

if thats not a stimulus i dont know what is

that would be analogues to a 7 trillion $ stimulus in USA for example

What?
No seriously what?

That is in no possible way the same thing..... at all.

ei.sdraob

masteroftherealm wrote: »

What?
No seriously what?

That is in no possible way the same thing..... at all.

is it not? do the public sector in US receive same level of wages? do they receive same welfare??

where is the money spend but in local economy


hence the overgenerous welfare and PS is a stimulus

masteroftherealm

ei.sdraob wrote: »

is it not? do the public sector in US receive same level of wages? do they receive same welfare??

where is the money spend but in local economy


hence the overgenerous welfare and PS is a stimulus

Stimulus does not go to individuals it goes to businesses to employ workers and expand. Your confusing economic stimulus with increased wages or something, I dont really even get where your coming from to refute your point, can you elaborate somehow?

ei.sdraob

masteroftherealm wrote: »

Stimulus does not go to individuals it goes to businesses to employ workers and expand. Your confusing economic stimulus with increased wages or something, I dont really even get where your coming from to refute your point, can you elaborate somehow?

yes in proper capitalistic society like US and in theory books

but in Socialist Ireland do consider the government who is the largest employer which has expanded like a balloon

current high welfare and PS is a form of stimulus, since it stimulates the economy with alot of money

Maebh

ei.sdraob wrote: »

is it not? do the public sector in US receive same level of wages? do they receive same welfare??

where is the money spend but in local economy


hence the overgenerous welfare and PS is a stimulus

The PS and SW (which, btw, is not overgenerous, nor does it approach what other EU countries do, but anyway) are not stimulus.

The US stimulus was 35% tax relief for individuals and businesses, and 65% spending on infrastructure, both physical and technological, and investment in healthcare, education and energy. It rewards businesses who go green, for example, and it boosts education in modern topics like IT or sustainability...

ei.sdraob

Maebh wrote: »

The PS and SW (which, btw, is not overgenerous, nor does it approach what other EU countries do, but anyway) are not stimulus.
.

hahahaha

why dont you drive few hundred miles north and ask what their welfare is (65euro week €) or how much their teachers earn (24K € starting)

or just look into the OECD report in my sig to see how much these 2 sectors are overpaid by compared to just about everywhere else in the world

Long Onion

Just to heap pain on misery - those 60 jobs in Waterford are being created by Talk Talk who are shedding 160 from Tiscali in Sligo - the reasons they gave for shedding the Sligo jobs is that there are fewer customers calling them - how handy it is that they happen to have a large call centre with extra capacity already up and running.

They have some neck to be announcing 60 'new' jobs ...

Flamed Diving

Iz a digraz, I tellz youz.

masteroftherealm

ei.sdraob wrote: »

hahahaha

why dont you drive few hundred miles north and ask what their welfare is (65euro week €) or how much their teachers earn (24K € starting)

or just look into the OECD report in my sig to see how much these 2 sectors are overpaid by compared to just about everywhere else in the world

Social welfare entitlements in most of Europe are based on a percentage of previous income. So you cannot make that statement in all good faith.
I would be entitled to 5 times more than I get here in most EU countries.

Maebh

ei.sdraob wrote: »

hahahaha

why dont you drive few hundred miles north and ask what their welfare is (65euro week €) or how much their teachers earn (24K € starting)

or just look into the OECD report in my sig to see how much these 2 sectors are overpaid by compared to just about everywhere else in the world

Why don't you head to Sweden or France and see how much someone gets there? Actual socialist-leaning countries, btw.

And why would you prefer to mirror an unequal society, rather than looking for better examples to model us on?

This still does not mean that wages and welfare equal stimulus. They do not.

ei.sdraob

Maebh wrote: »

Why don't you head to Sweden or France and see how much someone gets there? Actual socialist-leaning countries, btw.

And why would you prefer to mirror an unequal society, rather than looking for better examples to model us on?

This still does not mean that wages and welfare equal stimulus. They do not.

fine please do tell us which other countries pay more than 204 euro a week in welfare or have an average PS wage of 60K (as per sticky in this forum)

any links and referenced info would be appreciated

masteroftherealm

Italy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unemployment_benefits_in_Italy

Sweden:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unemployment_benefits_in_Sweden

Holland:
http://www.easyexpat.com/en/amsterdam/work/unemployment-benefits.htm


I can keep going....

dfbemt

mickeyk wrote: »

Just heard on the Radio that massive layoffs can be expected in the semi-state sector after xmas after they get a royal going over in tomorrows budget. Many of these workers wouldnt be permanent employees so can be let go pretty easily. Hard to see where jobs can be created for the amount of unemployed we will have. Its sure to hit 500k if it hasnt already with our smoke and mirror figures.

Didn't hear this story. Did they mention any particular semi states, apart from Aer Lingus whom we already know about.

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

p.s
The property market is about to take a VERY big nosedive.
NAMA is going to be a catastrophe unless they hold everything until about 2020.

Not the news anybody who bought during the 'tiger' wants to hear. Why do you think this will happen? How low do you think they will dive considering we are already at 2003 prices?

The retail sector is expected to shed thousands of jobs post Christmas, public servants are not being replaced.

How many jobs can we expect to see created in the new 'green economy'? Enough to remove approx 300,000 from the live register?

The_Honeybadger

dfbemt wrote: »

Didn't hear this story. Did they mention any particular semi states, apart from Aer Lingus whom we already know about.

Sorry dfbemt, didnt catch exactly who was speaking but An Post have already announce big layoffs, also Aer Lingus as you have said and the speaker mentioned any seme-state involved in transport is in big trouble, Bus Eireann, Dublin Bus, Iarnrod Eireann i guess. Many of the endless list of quangos are also semi states so maybe he was predicting they would get big cuts imposed on them too forcing job lay-offs, didnt hear the whole interview but he was just warning that jan-feb will be big months for job losses.

Mcloke

because some people continue to hold on to the public sector earn too much like their life depends on it.....reducing pay of the public sector will not solve all of Irelands problems....houses (if you have one) won't bounce back up to being the ridiculous amounts that people spent on them....private sector jobs will not re-appear...the fake boom is over! The whole country went bonkers money wise. A classic case of new money....no idea how to manage it and now that it is gone boy aren't we bitter :rolleyes: we will all pay the price (even those who managed their money) for many years to come but the longer people fight among themselves the harder it is going to be for this country to recover.

We sadly do not have a government capable of fixing all of our problems..... plug holes.... maybe.... actually fix things...highly unlikely!

The_Honeybadger

dfbemt wrote: »

Not the news anybody who bought during the 'tiger' wants to hear. Why do you think this will happen? How low do you think they will dive considering we are already at 2003 prices?

The retail sector is expected to shed thousands of jobs post Christmas, public servants are not being replaced.

How many jobs can we expect to see created in the new 'green economy'? Enough to remove approx 300,000 from the live register?

So glad I didnt buy during the property madness when i could have. Cant imagine how 300000 jobs could possibly be created any time soon, mass emigration and a brain drain will probably make a return, im sure they already have in fact. Im coming into the last six months of a one-year contract at work, nervous few months ahead I can tell ya.

ei.sdraob

masteroftherealm wrote: »

Italy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unemployment_benefits_in_Italy

Sweden:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unemployment_benefits_in_Sweden

Holland:
http://www.easyexpat.com/en/amsterdam/work/unemployment-benefits.htm


I can keep going....

they all seem to have a diminishing payments system, you forget that people can live all their life here on welfare with all sorts of allowances

how about a better measure

AMOUNT SPEND ON WELFARE per YEAR / POPULATION

ireland:
17 billion (2008) / 4,500,000 = €3,777 per capita

Mcloke

dfbemt wrote: »

Not the news anybody who bought during the 'tiger' wants to hear. Why do you think this will happen? How low do you think they will dive considering we are already at 2003 prices?

Unfortunately for people who bought during the 'tiger'...they have a very long way to fall in my opinion. I was not able but also not willing to buy during the tiger years and I am still very reluctant to buy at the moment as prices have not fallen nearly as far as they need to in my opinion. We are in a fairly bad way and salaries (both sectors) are being lost/cut, this can only lead to a fall in house prices as people are unable to afford/obtain mortgages of such insanity...many will struggle to afford what would have been regrded as modest mortgages. Houses will have to be repossessed (its a sad reality of the current economy) and the housing market find its natural levelling off which is far below the current prices. The problem is that again this country creates a smoke screen around actual house prices and there are no figures relating to the actual selling price only the asking price which means nothing in reality. I can personally say that this lack of clarity leaves me very distrusting of the housing market in general and is another factor putting me off buying in an unstable market.

Daithinski

ei.sdraob wrote: »

they all seem to have a diminishing payments system, you forget that people can live all their life here on welfare with all sorts of allowances

how about a better measure

AMOUNT SPEND ON WELFARE per YEAR / POPULATION

ireland:
17 billion (2008) / 4,500,000 = €3,777 per capita

What about this... although you come across quite arrogant and convinced that your opinion is right. probably nothing will change your one-track, closed mind.:(

A popular view that finds its way into pub conversations, page 4 of the ‘tabloids’, agonising phone-in shows, Dáil debates and elsewhere is that Irish social welfare rates are very high and cannot be ‘afforded’ (OK the claim that they were ‘the highest in Europe’ has been killed even if some people still pursue that untruth). Never let the data get in the way of a good story line.

http://www.progressive-economy.ie/2009/07/mythbusters-201-are-social-welfare.html

ei.sdraob

Daithinski wrote: »

What about this... although you come across quite arrogant and convinced that your opinion is right. probably nothing will change your one-track, closed mind.:(




http://www.progressive-economy.ie/2009/07/mythbusters-201-are-social-welfare.html

did you read the post?

the figures are 2006 and before

im asking for real sources and uptdodate figures

masteroftherealm

ei.sdraob wrote: »

they all seem to have a diminishing payments system, you forget that people can live all their life here on welfare with all sorts of allowances

how about a better measure

AMOUNT SPEND ON WELFARE per YEAR / POPULATION

ireland:
17 billion (2008) / 4,500,000 = €3,777 per capita

Im sorry did I not do what you asked, you told me to find a country that pays more than 204 there are 3 examples. Please respond to that....

ei.sdraob

masteroftherealm wrote: »

Im sorry did I not do what you asked, you told me to find a country that pays more than 204 there are 3 examples. Please respond to that....

and you did, but as i told you they dont pay these indefinitely as happens here, in these countries the rate goes down over time that doesn't happen here and there are many other benefits beside the 204 a week

so a practical measure is how much is spend totaly on welfare per capita

danman

A recent report stated that a married man with 2 kids (as is my case) would have to earn over 42,000euro to have the same standard of living as those on social welfare.

I earn 50,000euro. I work 55 hours and travel 210 miles from home on a monday and stay beside my job until friday, before travelling 210 miles home, for an extra 10,000euro.

The government must bring more people into the tax net tomorrow, then they have to lower social welfare, other wise, why bother working?

Daithinski

ei.sdraob wrote: »

so a practical measure is how much is spend totaly on welfare per capita

The total "per capita" spend on social welfare?

Are you arguing that this spend is too high? Its certainly not desirable.

However, its obviously going to be higher during a recession. Simple maths. Less jobs = more unemployment = higher per capita spend on welfare.

You are trying to spin it in some other direction. You seem to forget that there are real people at the end of these figures.

If the government were to work out how much money the unemployed get based on your reasoning there would be some serious problems.

Another famine would probably cause more problems than it would solve.

masteroftherealm

ei.sdraob wrote: »

fine please do tell us which other countries pay more than 204 euro a week in welfare or have an average PS wage of 60K (as per sticky in this forum)

any links and referenced info would be appreciated

ei.sdraob wrote: »

hence the overgenerous welfare and PS is a stimulus

I have shown with referenced fasts that Irish welfare is not overgenerous in comparison with the EU. Yet you still refuse to be swayed in your opinion.
If you dont accept facts what will you accept? SW Payments are not whats wrong wit this country mate. Much bigger problems than that.

masteroftherealm

danman wrote: »

A recent report stated that a married man with 2 kids (as is my case) would have to earn over 42,000euro to have the same standard of living as those on social welfare.

I earn 50,000euro. I work 55 hours and travel 210 miles from home on a monday and stay beside my job until friday, before travelling 210 miles home, for an extra 10,000euro.

The government must bring more people into the tax net tomorrow, then they have to lower social welfare, other wise, why bother working?

Source please.

Diarmuid

masteroftherealm wrote: »

Italy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unemployment_benefits_in_Italy

I can keep going....

I wouldn't be using Italy as an example to support your point.

Only in Italy are benefits anywhere near as skimpy as in America and Britain, where new claimants receive just 28% of their previous earnings.

Daithinski

danman wrote: »

other wise, why bother working?

I think you might know this one...

danman wrote: »

for an extra 10,000euro.

Is this not reason enough?

masteroftherealm

Diarmuid wrote: »

I wouldn't be using Italy as an example to support your point.

To obtain up to 40% of the previous wages (for a maximum of around 1000 € monthly in 2007) for up to seven months, a worker must have been previously employed and enrolled for the insurance, and depositing contributions for at least 52 weeks in two years.

Sorry I was going by this statement which Ive seen multiple places.
If things have changed so be it but they were just token examples of an alternative system to illustrate a point.

Mcloke

Daithinski wrote: »

I think you might know this one...



Is this not reason enough?

Well if his statements are correct then €10,000 extra and being away from your family Monday to Friday versus €10,000 less and getting to spend your time with your two kids and spending each day as you wish may well be worth it in many peoples eyes...it depends how much value you put on family life versus how much value you put on what you get by working.

hinault

ei.sdraob wrote: »

what do you call the 50 odd billion entering the economy via welfare and PS every year?

if thats not a stimulus i dont know what is

That is not a stimulus.

hinault

ei.sdraob wrote: »

hahahaha

why dont you drive few hundred miles north and ask what their welfare is (65euro week €) or how much their teachers earn (24K € starting)

or just look into the OECD report in my sig to see how much these 2 sectors are overpaid by compared to just about everywhere else in the world

You're comparing apples with oranges : Northern Ireland is part of the UK economy.

In itself, Northern Ireland is a huge beneficiary of transfers from the UK economy throughout.

One in three of all jobs in Northern Ireland, are State/Semi State jobs.
And pray tell me who foots this bill? Correct the British taxpayer.

NI may pay lower amounts of social welfare than ROI.................strip away the State support from Westminster and the NI economy would be decimated.
No wonder welfare is lower up there - they absorb huge amount of tax funding 1/3 of all jobs in the jurisdiction.

Lirael

masteroftherealm wrote: »

Italy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unemployment_benefits_in_Italy

Sweden:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unemployment_benefits_in_Sweden

Holland:
http://www.easyexpat.com/en/amsterdam/work/unemployment-benefits.htm


I can keep going....

in Italy lives more people so there is a bigger market, secondly Itlay lives off tourism so it is easier to find a job there

Sweden has a very high rate of taxes paid by people (up to 60%) so this is possible for their gvt to pay that high rate, and don't forget - Sweden is a country that is very protective for their citizens

I do not know anything about NL so I won't say

to compare in Poland unemployed get ca 135 euro per month for only a year and then they are kicked off


I think Ireland shall go the same way as Sweden, Italy and many other EU countries and start DECREASING payments for those who stay unemployed for more than let's say 1 year and then after let's say 5 yrs stop paying and place them somewhere

Daithinski

Mcloke wrote: »

Well if his statements are correct then €10,000 extra and being away from your family Monday to Friday versus €10,000 less and getting to spend your time with your two kids and spending each day as you wish may well be worth it in many peoples eyes...it depends how much value you put on family life versus how much value you put on what you get by working.

People can ask themselves this question, after they have asked the more important question of can I afford to get by without this 10k.

Another good question to ask is, will they be bothered when people are looking down their nose at them because their on the dole...

Mcloke wrote: »

and spending each day as you wish.

Oh yes, good point, the happy carefree life of the dole. I think the guy earning to 50k should pack in his job and sign on straight away. Just think of the joy and good times that will await him!

dfbemt

In addition to the 2 prominent job losses mentioned in the OP it is worth noting some of the many job losses which were announced in November

27th Nov - 103 jobs in Galway
26th Nov - 310 jobs in Cork and Sligo
26th Nov - 100 jobs in Dublin
26th Nov - 18 jobs in Dublin
25th Nov - 22 jobs in Waterford
23rd Nov - 172 jobs nationwide company
19th Nov - 100 jobs in Clare
19th Nov - 55 jobs in Kilkenny
19th Nov - 10 jobs in Cavan
13th Nov - 82 jobs in Dublin
12th Nov - 40 jobs in Limerick
11th Nov - 250 jobs in Sligo
11th Nov - 80 jobs in Tralee
9th Nov - 30 jobs in Donegal
7th Nov - 138 jobs in Galway
6th Nov - 70 jobs in Wexford
5th Nov - 80 jobs in Youghal
2nd Nov - 150 jobs in Clare

On the flip side, if you can call it that, the IDA have not managed to bring 1 single job to Limerick since Dell shut
http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/IDA-fails-to-deliver-a.5843600.jp

All fairly depressing news in advance of tomorrows budget with worse expected in the New Year. Did Mr Lenihan say recently that we would not hit 500,000 unemployed ? I think he needs to revisit that statement

Mcloke

Daithinski wrote: »

People can ask themselves this question, after they have asked the more important question of can I afford to get by without this 10k.

As this person has stated that they live away from home Mon-Fri...you may find that the €10,000 is fairly used up on the extra accomodation needed but I do not know their circumstances beyond what was stated on here

Daithinski wrote: »

Another good question to ask is, will they be bothered when people are looking down their nose at them because their on the dole...

Yes Irish people really do need to grow up and start to realise they could well be joining the folks on the dole in the next few days, weeks, months etc and so looking down their nose at other people is simply childish. I know it happens but it is ridiculous.

Daithinski wrote: »

Oh yes, good point, the happy carefree life of the dole. I think the guy earning to 50k should pack in his job and sign on straight away. Just think of the joy and good times that will await him!

In fairness, I never said being on the dole was carefree, in fact I believe that the system in this country leaves people with very little support around finding new employment or how being unemployed might be affecting them mentally/emotionally etc. I have been on the dole myself in the past so I know exactly what it is like but I am also aware that when I was on the dole I was free to spend my days as I wished...yes I was looking for work and that takes some time but it does not take up all day everyday. The man has two children he does not see from Mon-Fri...are you trying to tell me that he would not appreciate spending more time with them.

Now I am not suggesting he leave his job as I do believe that being in employment is better than being on the dole for so many reasons but I can simply see the mans viewpoint

dfbemt

Some more losses this week

3rd Dec - 39 jobs lost in Waterford
8th Dec - 40 jobs lost in Dublin
9th Dec - 25 jobs lost in Ballinrobe
10th Dec - 20 jobs lost along Shannon Erne Waterway

But don't worry as Mr Lenihan says that the worst is over.

Oh no it isn't says Business World with on average 17% of employers saying they will shed staff in the New Year.

http://www.businessworld.ie/bworld/livenews.htm?a=2521864

Want to change your story Brian?