GRA to Ballot for Industrial Action

FGR

Source

The Garda Representative Association is to ballot its members for industrial action.

The GRA says they have decided to take the action following the breakdown of talks between public sector unions and the Government last week.

The Association announced the move this morning and says it is aware of the consequences of any potential action for its 12,000 members.

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Under the Garda Síochána Act, members are not allowed engage in industrial action and there are serious penalties for breaches of the act.

GRA General Secretary PJ Stone said that the State cannot be allowed continue to use the law to deny gardaí the right to engage in industrial action.

The GRA openly admitted today that it has not sought legal advice on this move.

The ballot will ask members if they support the withdrawal of labour during any upcoming national days of protest organised by the Irish Congress of Trade Unions.

Unlike the Blue Flu in 1998 in which members called in sick, this move is being described by the GRA as an honest action.

GRA members will get to cast their votes in around two weeks' time.

I don't know about you - but I'm surprised at this. Policy and Procedure-wise Blue Flu sounds more legit than this action..

TheNog

They havent sought legal advice? It appears to me they havent even thought this through. Honestly I have lost faith in the GRA if they think that Gardai, who are in position to uphold the law, are seen to be breaking the law when it suits us.

Very poor job imo, worse than asking us not to give out FCPS a couple of weeks ago.

I for one will be voting no to strike action not because of what I have stated above. Another pay cut is needed from us to get the country's finances in order. Yes it is crap and believe me I know it will be harder to pay for my mortgage, loans, day to day living expenses etc. I just hope against hope that reform in the public sector will be done from the very top to the very bottom.

FGR

After watching the news report with PJ Stone and Michael O'Boyce; they themselves are aware that even inciting the notion of Strike action is an offence but are willing to do that as all they are doing is -asking- if members would support such an action.

1922

there is only one course of action left....

CRY

djtechnics1210

Be very interesting to see what the overall vote is at the end of the ballot...
If it goes anything like the rest of the public sector then id say we have the answer already.

brayblue24

I don't get these replies. Members spend their time moaning that the GRA are doing nothing and then as soon as they do someting proactive-whatever your personal views-that's wrong too....

I also accept that the public finances are in a mess but the population of this country is 4 million, not 350,000.

djtechnics1210

brayblue24 wrote: »

I don't get these replies. Members spend their time moaning that the GRA are doing nothing and then as soon as they do someting proactive-whatever your personal views-that's wrong too....

I also accept that the public finances are in a mess but the population of this country is 4 million, not 350,000.

if ags vote like the rest of the public sector did, then ags would be voting yes to strike action.

i think gra do a good job within the various boundaries they have, as their hands are tied for a lot of things due to various rules, laws etc.

irishgrover

brayblue24 wrote: »

I don't get these replies. Members spend their time moaning that the GRA are doing nothing and then as soon as they do someting proactive-whatever your personal views-that's wrong too....

I also accept that the public finances are in a mess but the population of this country is 4 million, not 350,000.

...but the problem is that this piece of pro-action is encouraging members to consider voting to break the law...... members know that they cannot take part in industrial action, for very valid reasons that are at the heart of having a functioning democracy.

..if you are will to break the law on this occasion to suit yourselves, where does it stop?

I, and I hope most members of the general public, hold members of the GS to a very high standard. I am endebted to your actions on a daily basis, and for many years (in the vast majority of situations) the GS has been beyond approach. You, your collegues and those before you have earned this respect. However IMHO Industrial action by the GS would totally undermine the GS, should be strongly discouraged and those that participate in should should be held very very accountable for their actions

brayblue24

djtechnics1210 wrote: »

well my reply was fairly straight forward so i dont know how you "dont get it"

ill explain it again though...... if ags vote like the rest of the public sector did, then ags would be voting yes to strike action.

i think gra do a good job within the various boundaries they have, as their hands are tied for a lot of things due to various rules, laws etc.

I said "I don't get these replies" not "I don't get ALL these replies". Your sarcasm was uncalled for.

djtechnics1210

if it sounded sarcastic i apologise. it wasnt meant to sound that way
i have edited post accordingly

deadwood

Well i'm just grateful to have a job.

brayblue24

irishgrover wrote: »

...but the problem is that this piece of pro-action is encouraging members to consider voting to break the law...... members know that they cannot take part in industrial action, for very valid reasons that are at the heart of having a functioning democracy.

..if you are will to break the law on this occasion to suit yourselves, where does it stop?

I, and I hope most members of the general public, hold members of the GS to a very high standard. I am endebted to your actions on a daily basis, and for many years (in the vast majority of situations) the GS has been beyond approach. You, your collegues and those before you have earned this respect. However IMHO Industrial action by the GS would totally undermine the GS, should be strongly discouraged and those that participate in should should be held very very accountable for their actions

I am not advocating strike action or any other illegal mechanism nor would I make my own views known but the point I tried to make (unsuccessfully obviously) was that while the threat of any ballot might not be to everyone's taste at least the RB are showing they have a voice and a backbone-depsite what many posters here seem to think. After that it's an individual choice.

irishgrover

brayblue24 wrote: »

I am not advocating strike action or any other illegal mechanism nor would I make my own views known but the point I tried to make (unsuccessfully obviously) was that while the threat of any ballot might not be to everyone's taste at least the RB are showing they have a voice and a backbone-depsite what many posters here seem to think. After that it's an individual choice.

Hi brayblue24,

sorry, I did not mean to infer that you were expressing an opinion one way or the other, although reading back my post I could see how you would read it that way.
My 'you' 's in the post were referring to the wider community as opposed to you personally.
Sorry for confusion etc

brayblue24

Whoah,

DJtechnics maybe I over reacted so apologies here too

Irishgrover-public support and recognition always welcome, thanks

Deadwood-great post as usual

Anyways, big hugs etc.

parsi

If there is disgruntlement out there then this is a handy way of actually gauging it rather than anecdotal hearsay and the like.

Think of it as a survey rather than the precursor to an illegal activity.

brayblue24

parsi wrote: »

If there is disgruntlement out there then this is a handy way of actually gauging it rather than anecdotal hearsay and the like.

Think of it as a survey rather than the precursor to an illegal activity.

Erm, I think this might be what I was initially trying to say:rolleyes:

parsi

Sorry - got distracted by the sarcasm and over use of "you" and then the big group hug just through me off completely.

Still I've distilled what you were trying to say so you're sorted.

Inquitus

TheNog wrote: »

They havent sought legal advice? It appears to me they havent even thought this through. Honestly I have lost faith in the GRA if they think that Gardai, who are in position to uphold the law, are seen to be breaking the law when it suits us.

Very poor job imo, worse than asking us not to give out FCPS a couple of weeks ago.

I for one will be voting no to strike action not because of what I have stated above. Another pay cut is needed from us to get the country's finances in order. Yes it is crap and believe me I know it will be harder to pay for my mortgage, loans, day to day living expenses etc. I just hope against hope that reform in the public sector will be done from the very top to the very bottom.

I hope that your common sense attitude to the problems this country faces reflect those of your co-workers.

Sierra Oscar

Expect the force to be ridiculed in the media over the coming days.

1922

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Expect the force to be ridiculed in the media over the coming days.

and that differs from other days how??

TheNog

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Expect the force to be ridiculed in the media over the coming days.

Of course it will and the GRA has just rattled an empty sword. Total bluff if you ask me but one everyone can see through.

djtechnics1210

Just saw this...
Dermot Ahern: Gardai that strike could face legal action

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/ahern-gardai-who-strike-could-face-legal-action-437321.html

Justice Minister Dermot Ahern has said that the Government will take legal action against gardaí if they decide to go on strike.

It follows an announcement by the Garda Representative Association that it is going to ballot its members on industrial action, even though gardai are not legally allowed to withdraw their labour.

The GRA says its taking the action in response to the collapse of pay talks with the Government last week.

But Minister Ahern said gardaí who go on strike leave themselves open to both civil and criminal legal action.

"We will pursue anything within the law," Minister Ahern said. "The people who uphold the law can't be law-breakers… no society can countenance that, no democracy can countenance that.

"I think people need to reflect on this. The only thing that this will do - if they were to go on strike - the only people it would help would be the criminals."

opti76

industrial action doesnt = strike..

there are many different types of industrial action..

what did pj say today .. IF ictu ask for our support we will ballot our members on industrial action.

he didnt say were going on strike ... he didnt call for a strike. a union is bound to act on its members wishes.. the GRA is not a union.

jank

So the GRA are balloting its members to see if it will support illegal industrial action knowing full well there is no way shape or form that even with its members support they will carry it out. This as well 3 days before a budget where social welfare is to be cut coupled with public support from the public for the public sector at an all time low.


I don't think you could make it up. As my dad would say hot air. Just strikes me as the GRA just appearing to look "busy"

Sierra Oscar

opti76 wrote: »

industrial action doesnt = strike..

there are many different types of industrial action..

what did pj say today .. IF ictu ask for our support we will ballot our members on industrial action.

he didnt say were going on strike ... he didnt call for a strike. a union is bound to act on its members wishes.. the GRA is not a union.

Does the act prohibit all forms of industrial action?

johnnyrotten

brayblue24 wrote: »

I don't get these replies. Members spend their time moaning that the GRA are doing nothing and then as soon as they do someting proactive-whatever your personal views-that's wrong too....

I also accept that the public finances are in a mess but the population of this country is 4 million, not 350,000.

Well said

diverdriver

The Garda won't vote and they won't go on strike but it is a publicity stunt by the GRA. They want to get themselves arrested or at least have the threat of arrest hanging over them. Martyrs for the cause. Shows the strenght of feeling, embarrasses the government etc. It's also a veiled threat to the government and the rest of us.

Frankly they are a disgrace to the force they represent. At the very least they should be forced to resign from the GRA.

Will we have to put up with more stupid stunts like this from well paid members of the public service. I hope not.

Sierra Oscar

And so it begins . . . :rolleyes:

Most officers retire from gardai as 'millionaires'

i-digress

The GRA may well be balloting for a Blue Flu type action. I heard that the reason they are balloting is because of the public were angry after the blue flu incident...I don't know...

jank

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

And so it begins . . . :rolleyes:

Most officers retire from gardai as 'millionaires'

To be fair the article is only highlighting the more than generous pensions gardai get. If there are any false claims in it then say so but to dispute fact with a :rolleyes: is pointless.

TheNog

jank wrote: »

To be fair the article is only highlighting the more than generous pensions gardai get. If there are any false claims in it then say so but to dispute fact with a :rolleyes: is pointless.

What srticle is this?

Anyway even though we now pay a pension levy we still get the same generous pension package

jank

jank wrote: »

To be fair the article is only highlighting the more than generous pensions gardai get. If there are any false claims in it then say so but to dispute fact with a :rolleyes: is pointless.

Maybe you could explain this for me, or some financial expert can.

On retirement after 30 years, the garda is entitled to a tax-free lump sum of €79,233, and an annual pension of €26,411.

Ms Daly said the value of this retirement lump sum was €1.12m, of which the State would have contributed €1m.

Pensions experts said the most an employer in the private sector was contributing to a employee's pension was 20pc.

We pay into our pension, which is mandatory, every week. At the end we come with a pension of €26k per year. For that to reach a million €€ we will have to live for just under 38 years. Ok maybe a few less with the lump sum.

bringingitall

We pay into our pension, which is mandatory, every week. At the end we come with a pension of €26k per year. For that to reach a million €€ we will have to live for just under 38 years. Ok maybe a few less with the lump sum.

Your dead right you "ONLY" get as man €750,000 or as woman €906,000. So thats three quarters of a million or very close to a million

What you pay into it inlcuding pension levy just about covers the lump sum and the 1st year 26k. Oh yeah did i mention that the pension is index linked

Grow up boys in blue you have it sweet

Used the assumptions:

Life Expecancy:

Male: 75.6
Female: 81.06

Retire at 50

bringingitall

bringingitall wrote: »

Your dead right you "ONLY" get as man €750,000 or as woman €906,000. So thats three quarters of a million or very close to a million

What you pay into it inlcuding pension levy just about covers the lump sum and the 1st year 26k. Oh yeah did i mention that the pension is index linked

Grow up boys in blue you have it sweet

Used the assumptions:

Life Expecancy:

Male: 75.6
Female: 81.06

Retire at 50

I can't retire until 58. There are people in my group who were older. I think there were less than 20 out of 280 who were anything near 20. Stop thinking in averages. And apparantly our life expectancy is less due to 30 years of shift work so won't get to draw enough to make us millionaires. And if we do live long enough to earn that much, unless we put it all in the bank and spend nothing we may make the million mark. Look forward to trying that one out.

bringingitall

foreign wrote: »

I can't retire until 58. There are people in my group who were older. I think there were less than 20 out of 280 who were anything near 20. Stop thinking in averages. And apparantly our life expectancy is less due to 30 years of shift work so won't get to draw enough to make us millionaires. And if we do live long enough to earn that much, unless we put it all in the bank and spend nothing we may make the million mark. Look forward to trying that one out.

God love ya retire at 58 i'll be working 7 years more than you. Its these kind of comments that ensure private sector workers just laugh at you Garda when you start crying poor mouth.

You'll find zero support on the street for these type of comments

FGR

But surely the title 'millionaire' is absolutely ridiculous. It's like saying a man on a state pension is will take home tens of thousands..albeit in five to ten years..

Vikings

bringingitall wrote: »

God love ya retire at 58 i'll be working 7 years more than you. Its these kind of comments that ensure private sector workers just laugh at you Garda when you start crying poor mouth.

You'll find zero support on the street for these type of comments

What do you do for a living do you mind me asking?

30 years working on the streets with criminals versus 35/40 whatever working in a nice cosy office is a completely different ball game.

Not everybody retires bang on the 30 years service either.

hmmm

ForegoneReality wrote: »

But surely the title 'millionaire' is absolutely ridiculous. It's like saying a man on a state pension is will take home tens of thousands..albeit in five to ten years..

Not really, most people just don't realise how expensive pensions are. For someone retiring at 50, annuity rates currently are about 4% (or less). i.e. for every 100,000 you put into an annuity, you receive 4,000 yearly for the rest of your life. That's a payback within 25 years and 50 year olds can nowadays realistically expect to live until well into their 80s.

I think Garda pensions are linked to active salaries? In which case annuity rates would be even lower if you were buying your own pension.

I think it would be helpful if public sector workers were allowed opt out of state pensions. Those that understood the financial benefits would be happy to pay the existing contributions, those that don't could have their pension contributions eliminated.

TheNog

bringingitall wrote: »

God love ya retire at 58 i'll be working 7 years more than you. Its these kind of comments that ensure private sector workers just laugh at you Garda when you start crying poor mouth.

You'll find zero support on the street for these type of comments

And it is these type of comments that show your perception of our job is all about money and little else. The posts from serving members of the ES are trying to educate you about our job but it is seemingly falling on deaf ears.

Some here agree with some sort of cut in the public pay and some dont. If you can make some reasonable posts then join in the discussion, if you cant then stay away.

bringingitall

Your dead right you "ONLY" get as man €750,000 or as woman €906,000. So thats three quarters of a million or very close to a million

What you pay into it inlcuding pension levy just about covers the lump sum and the 1st year 26k. Oh yeah did i mention that the pension is index linked

Grow up boys in blue you have it sweet

Used the assumptions:

Life Expecancy:

Male: 75.6
Female: 81.06

Retire at 50

Will you get up on your coffee table and tell me that the pensions you get are crap?

because if you do you need your head examined

Finnbar01

I don't undertsand why the GRA would do this? If the ballot goes ahead isn't that breaking the law, regardless of the outcome of the ballot?

Vikings

bringingitall wrote: »

Will you get up on your coffee table and tell me that the pensions you get are crap?

because if you do you need your head examined

Who here said the pensions were crap?

I think it is you that needs your head examined. Your last 27 posts have all been giving out about the pay that Gardaí receive.

Paulzx

Read all about it

"Most college graduates enter workforce as millionares


Well they'll earn that over forty rears of working so by the Indo's logic it is a true statement.


horses*it all round

bringingitall

Vikings wrote: »

Who here said the pensions were crap?

I think it is you that needs your head examined. Your last 27 posts have all been giving out about the pay that Gardaí receive.

Can i take it to mean you realise your pensions far outclass anything that could be achieved in the private. Thats a good start.

Good investigation on the 27 posts. Thats becuase as soon as i discovered the 57 allowances you guys get especially the clerical allowance and the lanzarote allowance(the payment you get on holiday becuase its just so hard to do overtime when your away in a foreign country)

bringingitall

"Most college graduates enter workforce as millionares


Well they'll earn that over forty rears of working so by the Indo's logic it is a true statement.


horses*it all round

The point is that those college graduates will work for the money they earn and their pension will have a direct relationship to what they paid into over their working lifetime.

The Garda pension is a payment from government for doing nothing thats why its called retirement the actual amount you guys pay bears no relation to what you pay into it, its guranteed by the state

Paulzx

Every worker in this country paying A prsi gets the state old age pension once they have enough contributions. This bears no resemblance to how much they actually pay.

By your logic this is also a payment for doing nothing i.e retirement.

Gardai will only receive these massive millions if they inconvieniently survive. Hopefully they are patriots and will die soon after retirement in order to appease whinging begrudgers like yourself

jake59

bringingitall wrote: »

God love ya retire at 58 i'll be working 7 years more than you. Its these kind of comments that ensure private sector workers just laugh at you Garda when you start crying poor mouth.

You'll find zero support on the street for these type of comments

I think he was making a factual point about his personal retirement age rather than crying poor mouth, although fair play to you for jumping right on that one. For how many years before you retire at 65 will you have served your country rather than serving your own pocket? So what job do you do?

source

bringingitall wrote: »

Can i take it to mean you realise your pensions far outclass anything that could be achieved in the private. Thats a good start.

Good investigation on the 27 posts. Thats becuase as soon as i discovered the 57 allowances you guys get especially the clerical allowance and the lanzarote allowance(the payment you get on holiday becuase its just so hard to do overtime when your away in a foreign country)

I'm a regular member of An Garda Siochana with just over a years service, the only allowances i am allowed to claim, are boot and uniform allowance and the rent allowance. I also get shift allowance once a month. I certainly don't get 57 allowances.

On the point of pensions, saying that gardai become millionaires when they retire, can be compared with saying that someone on social welfare, is made an almost millionaire over their life. there are many drains on this society who never work, if you take it that they don't work between 18 and 65 is 47 years, at €207 per week is 486,450, and if they live for another 20 years on the old age pension that total comes to almost €250,000, that's a total of €736.450, over their lifetime, of non contribution.

see i can play with numbers too. so we're almost making millionaires out of everyone on the dole by the independents rationale, and the dole earners do nothing for it, whereas i work a 28 day roster where i work 20 days out of those 28, which is split into 3 working weeks, one week of 48 hours and two weeks of 56 hours. i go to work at either 10pm 6am or 2pm, i deal with the dregs of society, and have my life threatened more than once a week, by people who are more than capable of acting on their threats. On top of this i have to go to court on my day off, taking time off in lieu, instead of being paid overtime.

We do a job that you wouldn't be able do in a million years, please don't begrudge us what we get each week in return for this service to the state, and on top of all this we don't have the right to industrial action.

bringingitall

jake59 wrote: »

I think he was making a factual point about his personal retirement age rather than crying poor mouth, although fair play to you for jumping right on that one. For how many years before you retire at 65 will you have served your country rather than serving your own pocket? So what job do you do?

Serve your country, do whats best for your country, take the 5 per cent cut and stop whinging

Save me the hyberbole, patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel

Paulzx

Listen man. You're only an apprentice public service basher. Why don't you head over to Irish Economy were the professional bashers hang out and learn your trade

bringingitall

sorry i actually like this forum i can go straight to the source

like can somebody give me a rational explantion for paying clerical allowance. Its so god damn dangerous out on the mean streets i figured Gardai would be paying the state to get on clerical duty not the other way around