Ireland - lack of air and naval defence.

Silvera

For some reference, I recently read an article (from Feb 2014) about Poland purchasing 8 x M-346 aircraft, plus support - and including an option for four more aircraft and training devices - for €280 million.

I also read an article about Aero Vodochody developing a new 'Aero L-169' trainer/light combat aircraft. It is stated that this new aircraft will have a longer range than the L-159ALCA.

tac foley

Markcheese wrote: »

So if we could pick up a lease on 6 or so ex swedish air force gripens and a 2 seater gripen trainer, (and a simulator or 2 ), h

Why do you see a need for two simulators? It's not as though they are a cheap fairground-type-of-item.

The air corps would be mainly technicians, just like any other modern air force.

The current RAF ratio of pilots to technical support of all ranks is almost 30 to 1 techies to aircraft.

Are you going to be able to support the rank/training infrastructure at that level?

tac

seanaway

This is like being in a room full of Star Trekkies....fantasy lads...all fantasy. NO government in Ireland will EVER have the B*lls to spend what is needed for an effective deterent force. END OF.

sparky42

seanaway wrote: »

This is like being in a room full of Star Trekkies....fantasy lads...all fantasy. NO government in Ireland will EVER have the B*lls to spend what is needed for an effective deterent force. END OF.

Given that "deterent force" is generally talking about Nuclear Weapons, you're right. Now an effective Defence Force investment is another matter.

BoJack Horseman

seanaway wrote: »

NO government in Ireland will EVER have the B*lls to spend what is needed for an effective deterrent force

Probably not....

Though, similarly no government has ever shown the will to spend what is needed to have an effective health service either!

Looking at what Ireland spends on defence....
It is so low, that it could be increased by 1/3 and would still be the lowest in the entire continent.

Silvera

I agree that we are not going to see spending (on jets) on the scale of most other EU countries, however I believe it's not "fantasy" to effectively put in place 6 x 'Fouga Magister CM170R replacements'.

I know the PC-9M's were seen as a Marchetti/Fouga replacements, however the Air Corps have operated 6 x jets since the 1960's (Vampires) to 1998 (Fougas) so - with some adjustments regarding hangars/equipment/tech training/tech staffing - I dont see it as "fantasy" for them to again operate 6 x fast jets.

I know..I know..we are realistically looking at 'light combat jets' (Coveney has hinted as much - see attached article), but imho, it's a big step up from the current situation.

brembo26

Silvera wrote: »

I agree that we are not going to see spending (on jets) on the scale of most other EU countries, however I believe it's not "fantasy" to effectively put in place 6 x 'Fouga Magister CM170R replacements'.

I know the PC-9M's were seen as a Marchetti/Fouga replacements, however the Air Corps have operated 6 x jets since the 1960's (Vampires) to 1998 (Fougas) so - with some adjustments regarding hangars/equipment/tech training/tech staffing - I dont see it as "fantasy" for them to again operate 6 x fast jets.

I know..I know..we are realistically looking at 'light combat jets' (Coveney has hinted as much - see attached article), but imho, it's a big step up from the current situation.

linkys no work

Silvera

brembo26 wrote: »

linkys no work

I dont know whats wrong with the links...I've tried to re-attach them twice, but it keeps saying 'Boards Internal Server Error'. Links now removed.

BoJack Horseman

Attachments seem to be unavailable since the attack/crash a couple of weeks ago.

If you are trying to post images you have to use an image hosting and then embed the image or post its link

Ren2k7

seanaway wrote: »

This is like being in a room full of Star Trekkies....fantasy lads...all fantasy. NO government in Ireland will EVER have the B*lls to spend what is needed for an effective deterent force. END OF.

Probably not, no. But don't blame the government or parties, their disinterest in the military is a reflection of the wider apathy the people as a whole have for the DF. Until the Irish people themselves start taking an interest in the Forces then you won't be hearing much from the four main parties on the DF either.

Markcheese

seanaway wrote:

This is like being in a room full of Star Trekkies....fantasy lads...all fantasy. NO government in Ireland will EVER have the B*lls to spend what is needed for an effective deterent force. END OF.

Whats an effective deterant force and what / who would it deter - I cant see six or 12 fast jets detering anyone who might be interested or capable of invading our airspace....

JPNelsforearm

Ren2k7 wrote: »

Probably not, no. But don't blame the government or parties, their disinterest in the military is a reflection of the wider apathy the people as a whole have for the DF. Until the Irish people themselves start taking an interest in the Forces then you won't be hearing much from the four main parties on the DF either.

Its a chicken and egg situation imo, if you underfund the defence forces and treat them as a joke, people will think they are and not see the point in funding them thus fulfilling their own perception of the DF and leading to a viscous cycle of apathy and underfunding. A party will have to take the bull by the horns and break that cycle.

Friends of mine have left the army as they didnt view it as a viable career due to the underfunding, they got their degree, served their contract, and even though their commanding officer tried to get them to stay, he understood their frustrations and reasons for leaving

Morpheus

[MOD]
This was actually my fault - i placed the first post in about SF's defence policy not thinking.

I should have - and since have - created a new thread here:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057559833

Please remain civil and keep on topic with regard to to Ireland's lack of air defence

By all means discuss budgets etc in relation to this, but keep the parish pump fisticuffs over on the other thread

As for my punishment - i shall infract myself later - alone - some self flagellation, with a glass of brandy, some gentle music and a copy of the financial times [/MOD]

seanaway

sparky42 wrote: »

Given that "deterent force" is generally talking about Nuclear Weapons, you're right. Now an effective Defence Force investment is another matter.

Now you're splitting hairs. A strong defence IS a deterrent. And if you think that half a dozen 2nd hand fighters is 'an effective Defence Force' - then you are away with the fairies.

sparky42

seanaway wrote: »

Now you're splitting hairs. A strong defence IS a deterrent. And if you think that half a dozen 2nd hand fighters is 'an effective Defence Force' - then you are away with the fairies.

Brazil for example is buying only 36 Gripen NG's (only 28 pure strike variants), are you suggesting 6-12 (12 being more likely needed) of the Gripen C variants wouldn't be enough for the needs of Ireland? What numbers of what fighters do you think we'd need? Hungary and the Czech's operate 12-14 C/D models?

seanaway

sparky42 wrote: »

Brazil for example is buying only 36 Gripen NG's (only 28 pure strike variants), are you suggesting 6-12 (12 being more likely needed) of the Gripen C variants wouldn't be enough for the needs of Ireland? What numbers of what fighters do you think we'd need? Hungary and the Czech's operate 12-14 C/D models?

I'm suggesting a proper all round well equipped defence forces. No government will spend what's needed. That, plus we are too small a country to last long on its own in a major fight.
Now, if you're talking about playing tag with some Russian Bear infringing into Irish airspace -grand.
If you're talking about escorting / shooting down a hijacked-bomb laden aircraft on its way to Dublin - Grand

Now, how these Gripens would help us keep Russian subs out I have no idea.
No real naval defence to speak of so on top of the millions needed for a few aircraft we would need to spend that with a few zeros to build an effective naval service. (no offence to the service as is).

sparky42

seanaway wrote: »

I'm suggesting a proper all round well equipped defence forces. No government will spend what's needed. That, plus we are too small a country to last long on its own in a major fight.
Now, if you're talking about playing tag with some Russian Bear infringing into Irish airspace -grand.
If you're talking about escorting / shooting down a hijacked-bomb laden aircraft on its way to Dublin - Grand

Now, how these Gripens would help us keep Russian subs out I have no idea.
No real naval defence to speak of so on top of the millions needed for a few aircraft we would need to spend that with a few zeros to build an effective naval service. (no offence to the service as is).

The planned for replacement of the 235's are the 295's, already designed for MPA variants, and cheap for MPA's (and like I said already planned for 3 aircraft from the White Paper). Also the underlying fact is that the Russian SSN's are going to be in very short supply for Russia with the next 5 years due to the block end of life and the failure to replace them post USSR.

hytrogen

Given the aircore are progressively being called into fisheries monitoring (it's a big blue wet thing to monitor!) as well as MSAR surveillance I would be of the opinion our military presence is progressively becoming more utilized at home.
The fact that during recent floods and previous blizzards to hit the British isles (steady..) & media showing the Irish DF's helping out the people (logs & dig outs while enjoying mrs. Browns cuppa tae) and the Brits sticking their noses up previously to now assisting after been shown what a great DF should and can do, I'd say I'm quite proud of our lads & they deserve a pat on the back!

Silvera

Unfortunately, when we get a new govt Coveney (most likely) wont be Minister for Defence ...so any plans for Air Corps jet aircraft could be out the window.

Wonder is there any movement by the powers-that-be regarding putting the new military radar system in place?

sparky42

Silvera wrote: »

Unfortunately, when we get a new govt Coveney (most likely) wont be Minister for Defence ...so any plans for jet aircraft could be out the window.

Wonder is the any movement by the powers-that-be regarding putting the new military radar sytem in place?

The Radar System was never a near priority as far as I read the White Paper, it was always on a we want to fund this when we can, it's not like there's a tender waiting in the wings, and given the EPV/MRV is going to be at least €120 million (thus eating up capital budgets even if there was an increase in Capital funding.)

seanaway

sparky42 wrote: »

The planned for replacement of the 235's are the 295's, already designed for MPA variants, and cheap for MPA's (and like I said already planned for 3 aircraft from the White Paper). Also the underlying fact is that the Russian SSN's are going to be in very short supply for Russia with the next 5 years due to the block end of life and the failure to replace them post USSR.

So, in brief - no worries about Russia as Putin is going to leave the Russian armed forces go to pot?

Have you read this?
http://www.ibtimes.com/russia-military-spending-2016-navy-air-force-modernize-expand-kremlin-says-2224045

sparky42

seanaway wrote: »

So, in brief - no worries about Russia as Putin is going to leave the Russian armed forces go to pot?

Have you read this?
http://www.ibtimes.com/russia-military-spending-2016-navy-air-force-modernize-expand-kremlin-says-2224045

The Kremlin announces such expansions virtually every year, I mean I think at this stage Vlad has announced at least half a dozen super carriers that will match the Nimitz class by 2020 for example, and yet nothing has/will come of it.

They went to France as they couldn't build Amphibs for example.

In terms of the Subs, it's strict numbers that I pointed out, have you looked at their build rates post USSR? The UK struggled to rebuild their knowledge/industrial base for the Astutes with a shorter build holiday for example. The Russians can't replace them at the rate they had, even the 2 dozen SSN's they have left aren't being replaced at the rate they need to maintain that level, 6 of their 17 SSN's are 25 years old, their reactors are going to be ending within 5 years. Only 1 is younger than 10 years.

Are the Russian's investing heavily in their military, without question, is it enough to replace everything that's end of lifing from the USSR days, no it simply isn't. Their heavy naval surface units are most likely never going to be replaced due to industrial loss (the yards were in Ukraine, and their "Ukrainian adventure" has kind of made that a moot point (they had to sell of some brand new frigates without engines) along with such impacts as hitting all the helicopter transmission systems that were built there. Moreover even with Vlad's games with the economy the protracted oil collapse is hurting Russia, even their own defence minister told their companies that post 2018 new orders were going to be contained due to budgets.

Should we build up proper multi role MPA's that could both domestic and international operations, without question? Does that mean that Vlad's limited sub hours are being spent in Irish Waters, most likely not.

Ren2k7

sparky42 wrote: »

The planned for replacement of the 235's are the 295's, already designed for MPA variants, and cheap for MPA's (and like I said already planned for 3 aircraft from the White Paper).

Was this ever confirmed?

sparky42

Ren2k7 wrote: »

Was this ever confirmed?

There hasn't been movement on any of the White Paper positions, but it fits the suggestion of the WP, besides think the 235's are coming up on replacement dates.

Negative_G

sparky42 wrote: »

There hasn't been movement on any of the White Paper positions, but it fits the suggestion of the WP, besides think the 235's are coming up on replacement dates.

You should have been a politician, it was a yes or no answer.

No, it hasn't been confirmed. There has been no tender issued as of yet. So pure speculation on your part although I grant you that it would be a likely choice given the requirements and the corporate knowledge of operating 235s for over 20 years.

Also, the current 235s received extensive mid life upgrades around the mid to late 2000's so are far from finished yet.

sparky42

Negative_G wrote: »

No, it hasn't been confirmed. There has been no tender issued as of yet. So pure speculation on your part although I grant you that it would be a likely choice given the requirements and the corporate knowledge of operating 235s for over 20 years.

Actually since none of the equipment suggested by the WP has been even put to tender I thought it was it was an obvious answer.

And I think there's another clear reason for going with the 295's, the only other current sub 130 design in wide use is the C27J Spartan, which comes in at $53 million a unit, compared with between $20-$28 million a unit for the C 295, so for 3 Spartan's we could buy at least five of the 295's, so all things being considered the 295's are the more likely option.

Silvera

I have heard from Air Corps sources that 3 x CASA 295's will be purchased as 235-replacements.

As regards the proposed radar system, it was my understanding that Coveney viewed it as the priority (at a cost of c.€10 million) ...and viewed jets as 'when we have the money'.

Regarding suggested russian military expansion, according to an article by George Soros (today) Russia will be bankrupt in 2017 ?!

http://www.irishexaminer.com/viewpoints/analysis/refugee-crisis-putins-russia-in-race-with-eu-to-see-which-will-collapse-first-381172.html?ref=yfp

BoJack Horseman

I was looking on Wiki & it mentioned that Ireland has 2 x maritime patrol variants of the old C-235.

Does this mean it has surface and/or sub-surface radar equipment?

Would their replacements also have this or just be basic transporter versions?

BoJack Horseman

Silvera wrote: »

Regarding suggested russian military expansion, according to an article by George Soros (today) Russia will be bankrupt in 2017 ?!

http://www.irishexaminer.com/viewpoints/analysis/refugee-crisis-putins-russia-in-race-with-eu-to-see-which-will-collapse-first-381172.html?ref=yfp

And Russia is not going bankrupt any time soon.

The people for decades were told to suffer for the glory of the motherland & the czar is playing the same card again... he has concocted plenty of outside threats to keep attention focused away from his ineptitude.

(also there is a lot wrong with that article from Soros).

sparky42

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

I was looking on Wiki & it mentioned that Ireland has 2 x maritime patrol variants of the old C-235.

Does this mean it has surface and/or sub-surface radar equipment?

Would their replacements also have this or just be basic transporter versions?

They have Surface radar/IR systems from memory but no sub-surface systems (ie MAD/Sonarbouys), and no wing fittings for any weapon pylons (again from memory they were transports refitted with MPA systems rather than the "true" MPA variants, though I could be wrong).

I suppose what we get will depend on the Government/Minister of the day, ideally if we got three I think we should split it with one "true" transport variant with the other 2 being the MPA variant.