The state of youth development in this country and the Connacht factor

chupacabra

I've been meaning to make this thread for a while, and i would like to discuss this as a fan and supporter of irish rugby and not of Munster or Leinster or Ulster or Connacht (tho the focus of this thread will inevitably be Leinster and Connacht).

It seems to me that Irish rugby is about to run into a massive problem in the next 2 - 3 seasons. That problem being how they are going to hold onto and develop some of the young up and coming talent that we have pouring out of the Leinster academy and to a Lesser extent the Ulster academy and to an even lesser extend (:() the Munster academy. Look at the likes of Andrew Conway and Brendan Macken. These lads have been touted as future Irish internationals and from seeing them play i can vouch that they are the best young players on the island. But how will Leinster be able to hold onto them when they will have players like Rob Kearney, Luke Fitzgerald, Isa Nacewa, Brian O'Driscoll, Fergus McFadden, Gordon D'Arcy ahead of them. Now we all know Dempsey and Horgan have few seasons left in them, same goes for Brian O'Driscoll and Gordon D'Arcy. But think of the offers these lads are going to get from English clubs or even French clubs to come and play for them. I remember Fitzgerald recieving a fair few inquiries from outside the country as to what he was going to do after he came out of school. How easy is it to dismiss a big money move to a club where you will be guaranteed game time week in week out? And if these lads are kept in Leinster who will lose out? Someone has to. Thats the way it is with Irish rugby at the moment, we have a vast number of young players coming through the academies and nowhere to play them except reserve sides or A games when they could be playing top level rugby elsewhere. Its why we have seen a few players over the years not live up to the billing because lack of game time stagnates their career.

This is why i think maybe its about time the IRFU took their hands out of their pockets and turned to Connacht as a way to keep these lads in Ireland while continuing their development and bringing them into the professional arena immediatley and painlessly. Think of the possibilities if the IRFU took complete control over Connacht, dumped all their foreign signings and turned it into a proto-development province, a kind of.. "national academy" for young players with a few seasoned internationals in there to guide the ship. They could appoint Eric Elwood or Allen Clarke as the head coach (he has done great things with the U20s over the last few seasons) and entice players like Paul O'Donohoe, Kyle Tonetti, Ian Nagle, Paddy McAllister, Paul Ryan, Eamonn Sheridan, Tommy O'Donnell etc. to make the journey west and be part of something different, to guarantee these lads consistent game time in both domestic and european competition and to ease their way into the frame for the Irish squad. I have no doubt in my mind that after a season or 2 a well managed Connacht team with an all ireland mixture of youth and experience would be regularily making AT LEAST a Heineken cup play off spot and would probably make a decent attempt at winning the European Challenge cup. Much better than playing for reserve and A sides off and on for the B&I cup. Just give each player a 2 year contract after which time their home province can decide whether or not they want to sign them back. As an experiment at least i think it would be succesful and there is absolutley nothing to lose from trying something like this. I'll give Philip Browne a call tomorrow and see if he's up for it!

What do you think? Does something need to be done? Should we leave things the way they are and hope for the best? Or is this Kerry man just talking shíte again?

figs86

I think the idea is sound and has been touted for years.

However I think it is impractical as the 4 provinces are in direct competition with one another - thus the 3 stronger provinces have little reason give up their academy players that they need for matches where internationals are injured/unavailable and especially now with the British and Irish Cup.

Also, the academies are likely only to release weaker players who they predict won't be superstars to Connacht.

It is hard for Connacht to entice players as they have a smaller fanbase and less money and thus are paying players who would only be in the academy elsewhere.

It isn't necessarily the right path for all players to go straight into Professional rugby for the likes of Connacht instead of working their way through the academy. While they may improve in the short term, they are probably at a higher risk of injury and may be hindered in their long term development. On the other hand, some players could progress faster than others to top competition.

It's a vicious cycle of Connacht having poorer players and thus are perpetually towards the bottom of the Magners League. Because they are bottom of the league, better players are less likely to move there.

They need to improve to get players and they need players to improve!

chupacabra

figs86 wrote: »

I think the idea is sound and has been touted for years.

However I think it is impractical as the 4 provinces are in direct competition with one another - thus the 3 stronger provinces have little reason give up their academy players that they need for matches where internationals are injured/unavailable and especially now with the British and Irish Cup.

Also, the academies are likely only to release weaker players who they predict won't be superstars to Connacht.

It is hard for Connacht to entice players as they have a smaller fanbase and less money and thus are paying players who would only be in the academy elsewhere.

It isn't necessarily the right path for all players to go straight into Professional rugby for the likes of Connacht instead of working their way through the academy. While they may improve in the short term, they are probably at a higher risk of injury and may be hindered in their long term development. On the other hand, some players could progress faster than others to top competition.

It's a vicious cycle of Connacht having poorer players and thus are perpetually towards the bottom of the Magners League. Because they are bottom of the league, better players are less likely to move there.

They need to improve to get players and they need players to improve!

Im saying that players who are finished their academy contracts should go to Connacht. Not while they are still in the academy.

OldJay

chupacabra wrote: »

It seems to me that Irish rugby is about to run into a massive problem in the next 2 - 3 seasons

Spreading the playerbase thin is not going to improve anything.
There is an excellent system in place, the British and Irish Cup has now also started giving players and officials the experience for the next step up and there are also the U19 and U20 squads and games to consider.

One other factor that you omit is that players have an opinion of their own as to where they want to play. No player is ever 'sent' to any province.

chupacabra wrote: »

Think of the possibilities if the IRFU took complete control over Connacht

Connacht like all three other provinces is a branch of the IRFU.

Tim Robbins

With injuries and squad rotation you need at least 2 players for each position.
Good players will always come through and there is come cooperation between provences. Several players have changed provence so it is possible. And with the ML getting more serious every year these games are more competitive.

little173

I think the system that you propose only really works for a handful of players in a handful of positions. Leinster seem to produce a steady stream of talented backs at the moment, and with the Irish Stars taking up the backline they would be lacking in game time, there is an argument for them to go out to Connacht on loan for a year to develop. Same could be said for the odd Munster back 5 player but overall the player pool is small enough for them to come through if they are good enough.

The problem is the ML is no pushover for Irish sides that it once was, put a half hearted, experimental side out, and you get beaten, sometimes badly. Look at Leinster last night, even with an experienced front 5, coming up against decent ML outfits means trouble.

I think the overall point of Players moving around the provinces a bit more on loan is a good one, but there also has to be a path for players to come back. Connacht will never have the fan base and money of Leinster or Munster but it would be nice to see say a Keatley go to Munster after he has established some good performances for Connacht.

thomond2006

I think Leinster vs Dragons proved that having a team of all youngsters doesn't work and is no good for anyone.

What Connacht need are experienced players with good leadership skills in the squad who can help these young players develop.

Mick O'Driscoll would be a good example, he's a decent player who has captained Munster in the ML in POC/ROG's absence and has international experience.

The trouble is how do you convince this type of player to move?

OldJay

I think what Cheika did was pretty special. These guys won't forget yesterday in a hurry.
I remember (even though I'm not much of a soccer fan these days) when the media and ex-players were slamming Alex Ferguson for fielding young players for the League Cup. Alan Hansen went so far as to say that "you'll never win fielding kids".
Those kids included such names as Gary Scholes, Nicky Butt, the Neville brothers and David Beckham.

chupacabra

chupacabra wrote: »

I've been meaning to make this thread for a while, and i would like to discuss this as a fan and supporter of irish rugby and not of Munster or Leinster or Ulster or Connacht (tho the focus of this thread will inevitably be Leinster and Connacht).

It seems to me that Irish rugby is about to run into a massive problem in the next 2 - 3 seasons. That problem being how they are going to hold onto and develop some of the young up and coming talent that we have pouring out of the Leinster academy and to a Lesser extent the Ulster academy and to an even lesser extend (:() the Munster academy. Look at the likes of Andrew Conway and Brendan Macken. These lads have been touted as future Irish internationals and from seeing them play i can vouch that they are the best young players on the island. But how will Leinster be able to hold onto them when they will have players like Rob Kearney, Luke Fitzgerald, Isa Nacewa, Brian O'Driscoll, Fergus McFadden, Gordon D'Arcy ahead of them. Now we all know Dempsey and Horgan have few seasons left in them, same goes for Brian O'Driscoll and Gordon D'Arcy. But think of the offers these lads are going to get from English clubs or even French clubs to come and play for them. I remember Fitzgerald recieving a fair few inquiries from outside the country as to what he was going to do after he came out of school. How easy is it to dismiss a big money move to a club where you will be guaranteed game time week in week out? And if these lads are kept in Leinster who will lose out? Someone has to. Thats the way it is with Irish rugby at the moment, we have a vast number of young players coming through the academies and nowhere to play them except reserve sides or A games when they could be playing top level rugby elsewhere. Its why we have seen a few players over the years not live up to the billing because lack of game time stagnates their career.

This is why i think maybe its about time the IRFU took their hands out of their pockets and turned to Connacht as a way to keep these lads in Ireland while continuing their development and bringing them into the professional arena immediatley and painlessly. Think of the possibilities if the IRFU took complete control over Connacht, dumped all their foreign signings and turned it into a proto-development province, a kind of.. "national academy" for young players with a few seasoned internationals in there to guide the ship. They could appoint Eric Elwood or Allen Clarke as the head coach (he has done great things with the U20s over the last few seasons) and entice players like Paul O'Donohoe, Kyle Tonetti, Ian Nagle, Paddy McAllister, Paul Ryan, Eamonn Sheridan, Tommy O'Donnell etc. to make the journey west and be part of something different, to guarantee these lads consistent game time in both domestic and european competition and to ease their way into the frame for the Irish squad. I have no doubt in my mind that after a season or 2 a well managed Connacht team with an all ireland mixture of youth and experience would be regularily making AT LEAST a Heineken cup play off spot and would probably make a decent attempt at winning the European Challenge cup. Much better than playing for reserve and A sides off and on for the B&I cup. Just give each player a 2 year contract after which time their home province can decide whether or not they want to sign them back. As an experiment at least i think it would be succesful and there is absolutley nothing to lose from trying something like this. I'll give Philip Browne a call tomorrow and see if he's up for it!

What do you think? Does something need to be done? Should we leave things the way they are and hope for the best? Or is this Kerry man just talking shíte again?

What you have described is exactly what Connacht is supposed to be,its a development province.

But how do you know these players want to go?
Macken and Conway etc are probably studying in Dublin,have girlfriends and friends and family etc.

The Leinster academy is probably the best in Europe regards setup and proffesionalism,moving anywhere else will hamper their development and leinster wont be able to oversee their development.

Moving away is good for some players and some do so off their own back like keatley but the super talented ones ie Macken will never be allowed to move province.

Its rich looking in from another club to say,oh send them to Connacht.They are too young to go imo and it will hamper their development.

The only way it should happen is if they turn Connacht into some super academy and provide them with great facilties the best coaches.

But then the Big colleges in Ireland are in Dublin and education is so important I dont see how they can just be asked to go and forfeit that.

They are also facing the problem of Depth,after McFadden then Macken is probably the next centre on the list.Can Cheika afford to let him go.They would need to make some clause so they can go back if injury strikes.

Your idea about sending them after they are finished in the academy is a tough one though.If they dont make it then maybe they arent good enough to play for Connacht?
and if they are good enough they will want to keep them.

WeeBushy

What about some kind of loaning system?

I doubt many head coaches would be happy seeing their best young players leaving and not being under their complete control for a few seasons. Also not sure the players would particularly want to leave; they've grown up their whole lives playing for and supporting their province, and are unlikely to want to give up a contract there to move somewhere else.

Loaning out their young talent to Connacht for, say, half a season or something like that (similar to footy in England) might be an option...

anonymous_joe

WeeBushy wrote: »

What about some kind of loaning system?

I doubt many head coaches would be happy seeing their best young players leaving and not being under their complete control for a few seasons. Also not sure the players would particularly want to leave; they've grown up their whole lives playing for and supporting their province, and are unlikely to want to give up a contract there to move somewhere else.

Loaning out their young talent to Connacht for, say, half a season or something like that (similar to footy in England) might be an option...

English rugby clubs loan players out too.

The problem as I see it, and one I've mentioned to chupacabra before is that we're not getting a huge variety of talent.

We seem to pump out quality full-backs, centres and back-rows, but we've fcuk all true wingers, next to no second-rows and fairly limited resources in terms of propping.

Unless some of the younger lads move to France or England (or Wales or Scotland) there just won't be room for them in Irish professional set ups.

They need to set up an x-factor style prop competition no joke.

Advertise size needed and ages between say 20-25 and hold test training sessions in all the provinces,you would be bound to find some gems that are new to the game or stopped playing after school.

thomond2006

Nova Better Backache wrote: »

They need to set up an x-factor style prop competition no joke.

Advertise size needed and ages between say 20-25 and hold test training sessions in all the provinces,you would be bound to find some gems that are new to the game or stopped playing after school.

I lol'd. :pac:

"IT'S TIME.....TO FACE....THE SCRUM!"

brianthebard

I know Connaught don't have a huge fan base as it is but I can't see that being improved if they become officially treated as a holding tank for players from the other three provinces until older players retire, at which point the young talent at Connaught would return to their first province (I assume this is the likely conclusion of the op's plan). In fact I earnestly believe that if people (the IRFU/fans/Connaught themselves) stop viewing Connaught as the runt of the litter and started trying to forge their own path they would have more success, and could provide a fourth team that Irish players would like to go to, rather than an overflow club like the op suggests.
I know the op meant no offence to Connaught, I just don't see this plan having any benefit in the medium or long term.

colster

I don't think this is such a big deal. If we produce a load of players and they go abroad then so be it. I think a lot of Irish players have benefitted from playing abroad e.g.
Cullen,
Jennings,
Ross,
Johne Murphy,
Bob Casey,
Frank Murphy,
Tommy Bowe,
Geordan Murphy
Reddan
Johnny O'Connor

A lot of these players were not getting a look in at their own Province went abroad, improved and ended up getting international caps. Some of them have returned as better and more experienced players than if they'd stayed. Look at the impact Cullen and Jennings have had on Leinster since they returned. They were excellent for Leicester and seem to have bought back a harder edge to the Leinster pack.

Another factor to consider is the change to the HEC and Challenge Cups where the winner of either will result in an extra team from that nation in the HEC. I don't think it's a wild fantasy that Connacht could actually play in the HEC in the next 2 to 3 years. If that happens then a lot of those younger players will go to Connacht willingly.

bamboozle

if a proper management structure was put in place at Connacht to develop these players as they come out of their academy contracts then everyone would be a winner.

I'd love to see Eddie O'Sullivan appointed Connacht and Irish U20 Coach and maybe even Irish A coach, his remit would be to develop players at u20's while still in their academy contracts for the national U20 team, then as they finish their academy contracts they'd either get a pro deal with their own province or if he considered them good enough a 1 or 2 year deal at Connacht with 1st refusal on completion of contract with their original province. This would see these players getting good exposure to ML games etc.

Just take the case of POD and Ian Keatley, both played together from schools up, after winning the U20 grand slam they both had good seasons with Clontarf with POD the outstanding scrumhalf in the league (and one of the best players) Keatly gets a deal at connacht and he's now fully capped and a much improved player, POD gets a deal at Leinster and he's getting very little game time for province while running amok in the AIL.

i suppose one saving grace is the Provincial A league exists this season while the standard of the AIL is immeasurably better than previous seasons so younger players are this season getting better big game exposure.

Zzippy

Justind wrote: »

Spreading the playerbase thin is not going to improve anything.
There is an excellent system in place, the British and Irish Cup has now also started giving players and officials the experience for the next step up and there are also the U19 and U20 squads and games to consider.

One other factor that you omit is that players have an opinion of their own as to where they want to play. No player is ever 'sent' to any province.


Connacht like all three other provinces is a branch of the IRFU.

This post is depressing reading, considering Justin works for the IRFU. Just says it all really about the IRFU's attitude to Connacht - one excuse after another, oh we've got the B&I Cup, oh we can't spread players too thin, oh they'll get experience playing in underage squads, oh they don't want to go there, oh..... ad nauseum (nausea inducing actually)

As a Connacht fan I admit to being biased, but the condescending attitude to Connacht is frankly a bit like Sepp Blatter's attitude to Ireland recently. Yes I realise we have a small fan base, but without success on the field we won't be able to develop a fanbase. Yet the IRFU use that excuse that we have to develop a bigger fanbase before they can justify increasing funding - putting the cart before the horse. Leinster and Munster didn't exactly have huge attendances for their population prior to the HEC and Sky Sports making rugby "exciting and attractive" in the late 90s.
I'd like to know exactly what level of funding each of the 4 provinces receives from the IRFU - is that information you're allowed to divulge Justin???
Oh, and as for the Connacht Branch, don't get me started! :rolleyes:

brianthebard wrote: »

I know Connaught don't have a huge fan base as it is but I can't see that being improved if they become officially treated as a holding tank for players from the other three provinces until older players retire, at which point the young talent at Connaught would return to their first province (I assume this is the likely conclusion of the op's plan). In fact I earnestly believe that if people (the IRFU/fans/Connaught themselves) stop viewing Connaught as the runt of the litter and started trying to forge their own path they would have more success, and could provide a fourth team that Irish players would like to go to, rather than an overflow club like the op suggests.
I know the op meant no offence to Connaught, I just don't see this plan having any benefit in the medium or long term.

Brian, most Connacht fans would have no problem receiving more players from other provinces, both the team and many of those players have benefited hugely over the last few years from that arrangement - the likes of Bernard Jackman, Jerry Flannery, John Fogarty, Ian Keatley, and Fionn Carr (who is probably the most talented uncapped player in the country right now). As for forging our own path, that is what we are left to do in the absence of proper support from the IRFU.
Oh, and BTW, its Connacht!

brianthebard

I prefer to spell it the other way...

Anyways, agree with what you're saying Zzippy, but I think the op's plan was for temporary moving around of youth players from the other provinces, to use Connacht as a training team until the parent province wants them back. Do you not think that would negatively affect the club/fans/team?

ALH-06

The underlying problem is that Ireland only has four teams - that is, a maximum capacity of 60 players starting full professional matches per week. This situation has reaped dividends in the past, but we are clearly reaching a situation where this is no longer adequate. Rugby is growing rapidly in Ireland, and the provincial academies are now producing quality players in higher numbers than before.

The solution is NOT to send them all to Connacht. Leinster's selection yesterday (while undoubtedly beneficial to the development of the players involved) showed that a team full of young rookies won't achieve anything at full professional level. Promising players need to be gradually introduced into teams of experienced and quality veterans, and for this reason Connacht needs to continue fielding the Frank Murphys and Johnny O'Connors each week, even if it is supposed to be a 'development province'. Connacht may offer more opportunities to aspiring young players than the other three provinces, but it cannot cater for anything close to all the emerging talent in the country.

In the near future many young Irish players will have to look abroad in order to get the game time that their ongoing development requires. This isn't necessarily preferable, but it's unavoidable and not necessarily catastrophic. If these guys are good enough, they'll be taken care of and given game time wherever they go. The IRFU may lose control of their development and international availability, but with only four professional teams, they clearly don't have the capacity to accommodate these players in the first place.

siltirocker

ALH-06 wrote: »

The underlying problem is that Ireland only has four teams - that is, a maximum capacity of 60 players starting full professional matches per week. This situation has reaped dividends in the past, but we are clearly reaching a situation where this is no longer adequate. Rugby is growing rapidly in Ireland, and the provincial academies are now producing quality players in higher numbers than before.

The solution is NOT to send them all to Connacht. Leinster's selection yesterday (while undoubtedly beneficial to the development of the players involved) showed that a team full of young rookies won't achieve anything at full professional level. Promising players need to be gradually introduced into teams of experienced and quality veterans, and for this reason Connacht needs to continue fielding the Frank Murphys and Johnny O'Connors each week, even if it is supposed to be a 'development province'. Connacht may offer more opportunities to aspiring young players than the other three provinces, but it cannot cater for anything close to all the emerging talent in the country.

In the near future many young Irish players will have to look abroad in order to get the game time that their ongoing development requires. This isn't necessarily preferable, but it's unavoidable and not necessarily catastrophic. If these guys are good enough, they'll be taken care of and given game time wherever they go. The IRFU may lose control of their development and international availability, but with only four professional teams, they clearly don't have the capacity to accommodate these players in the first place.

Dude, unintentional be it may, that's oxymoronic.

Connacht have a tiny squad, and are sceaming for young players from the other provinces. Ecspecially as in the last 2 years every young lad we've got from the others is starting in the 15 week-in and week-out, half of which have been capped (all if you count the As).

Why look for a new solution, when the IRFU haven't even attempted the Connacht route. Sure half the Blackrock team would start for Connacht

anonymous_joe

brianthebard wrote: »

I know Connaught don't have a huge fan base as it is but I can't see that being improved if they become officially treated as a holding tank for players from the other three provinces until older players retire, at which point the young talent at Connaught would return to their first province (I assume this is the likely conclusion of the op's plan). In fact I earnestly believe that if people (the IRFU/fans/Connaught themselves) stop viewing Connaught as the runt of the litter and started trying to forge their own path they would have more success, and could provide a fourth team that Irish players would like to go to, rather than an overflow club like the op suggests.
I know the op meant no offence to Connaught, I just don't see this plan having any benefit in the medium or long term.

Connaught? Oh no, a West Brit in the rugby forum.

Part of the problem with Connacht is that most of their best players will leave. Johnny O'Connor and Gavin Duffy have both played in England.

Connacht need more players at all levels, and certainly, I think the likes of Troy Nathan and Bibo etc, are all grand, but more Fionn Carrs would suit everyone better.

colster wrote: »

A lot of these players were not getting a look in at their own Province went abroad, improved and ended up getting international caps. Some of them have returned as better and more experienced players than if they'd stayed. Look at the impact Cullen and Jennings have had on Leinster since they returned. They were excellent for Leicester and seem to have bought back a harder edge to the Leinster pack.

They're certainly a lot lot better. I wouldn't mind seeing some of the lads get hardened up that way.

Zzippy wrote: »

As a Connacht fan I admit to being biased, but the condescending attitude to Connacht is frankly a bit like Sepp Blatter's attitude to Ireland recently. Yes I realise we have a small fan base, but without success on the field we won't be able to develop a fanbase. Yet the IRFU use that excuse that we have to develop a bigger fanbase before they can justify increasing funding - putting the cart before the horse. Leinster and Munster didn't exactly have huge attendances for their population prior to the HEC and Sky Sports making rugby "exciting and attractive" in the late 90s.
I'd like to know exactly what level of funding each of the 4 provinces receives from the IRFU - is that information you're allowed to divulge Justin???
Oh, and as for the Connacht Branch, don't get me started! :rolleyes:

Leinster and Munster are bigger. Population-wise that is. As is Ulster.

Connacht have half the budget of the other three afaik?

Dave Joyce

As a Connacht fan I admit to being biased, but the condescending attitude to Connacht is frankly a bit like Sepp Blatter's attitude to Ireland recently.

Although I'm not a soccer fan, this is a great comparison. I would not be opposed to ConnACHT helping develop younger players PROVIDED it was not just as a temporary dumping solution at the convenience of the other Provinces.

themont85

The IRFU should have invested imo in Connacht a few years back when they had some nice runs in the Challenge Cup and they garnered a little interest. Unfortunately they didn't have the dough and actually tried to wind them down. I don't think its right to just throw money at Connacht at the same time, they have to gather a bit of momentum up first. A new coach next year will hopefully do that, Keatley will be a year older too and is getting plenty of chances to become a decent outhalf.

I'm not concerned about Mackan or Conway either, if they're good enough they'll get in just like Kearney who was on the fringes for a while.